Ask Dave Dunipace About Innova Discs

[davei]

Chase, we have a pile of x-out discs that go back a few years. Most of our dealers didn't even know we had them. Recently the dealers have started getting them as they are discounted. Some are several years old like the Pegasus.

[gokayaksteven]

hey dave--were ALL the new pro tl's blended plastic? i was under the impression they were. i just got 4 in the mail this a.m. and they feel just like the 1st run pro t's. very domey and floppy top. they are a very straight flyer, with tons of glide. great downwind disc. maybe mine do not have much champion blended in? would love to see a mix with more ce-type plastic in the blend. thanks and keep up the great work--steven

[gokayaksteven]

hey dave--were ALL the new pro tl's blended plastic? i was under the impression they were. i just got 4 in the mail this a.m. and they feel just like the 1st run pro t's. very domey and floppy top. they are a very straight flyer, with tons of glide. great downwind disc. maybe mine do not have much champion blended in? would love to see a mix with more ce-type plastic in the blend. thanks and keep up the great work--steven

[widiscgolf]

Ok Remember the Champion Orcs that were made for Brian S. The ones that were almost like CE. Well they were not the Pro Line Orcs. Didn't even compare. These were solid in color and I swear felt like 100% CE. Ask Brian and he will tell. Just run those please.

You would make customers very happy.

[girlie]

Hey Discgolf,

I read a DD response earlier to the same type question and I hope I get it right...

The Brian S Orcs WERE CE orcs that were run accidentally with PRO color in them. About 600 of them were made.

Dave, I just bought another Champion Aero and like it a lot for longer putts. Do you expect to continue to make Champion Aeros for the forseeable future?

Also, have you played with a 20th Anniversary Champion Aviar and if so what differences do you note about its flight characteristics? I have two and throwing one (since they are limited edition) and scuffing one up just seems wrong

[davei]

robj, we will make Champion Aeros in the future. As for the Champion Aviars; I would say play with a regular Champion rather than the 20th Anniversay edition. Much cheaper. I havent noticed any difference in the flight of the latest run. They are much more stable than the previous run however. Very straight, as opposed to the last run which had a slight turn.

[davei]

Yes, they were a blended pro. The blended material takes a tree hit better than the original, but is not as durable as the Champion. The Pros tend to be longer downwind fliers with more grip, but less speed and less durability than the Champions. Most of the Champions are more stable into the wind also.

[Blarg]

I think you've already addressed this question somewhere, but I can't seem to find it. Why is CE plastic so hard to find/make? Was it a freakish or accidental formula? Too durable? Missing ingredients?

[davei]

Blarg, it is basically the same stuff we use now. It was just a little stiffer; borderline stiff for PDGA regulations in some models. I still have some of the original (not for sale). There were actually two formulas. One with a weighting agent, and one without. The one with the weighting agent was opaque (mostly red), and the one without was transparent blue or red or clear.

[widiscgolf]

Dave,

Then why tease with other plastic? Everyone loved old CE. I mean they really LOVED it. It upset allot of players when you changed it. I am sure you are aware of that. So is it a matter of supply? Do you have not enough old CE material left? As you can see on EBAY the price of OLD CE is gone throw the roof and the reason is INNOVA stopped producing it. If you are telling us you have the material still why don’t you start making old CE again? Why did you have to change a good thing? I am sure you could figure out a way to run old CE again that would be legal for the PDGA. Thank you for your time Dave.

[mf100forever]

HI Dave,
you seem to have a good insight in the Millenium line-up too, do youknow if all the new Millenium runs are made in Innova Pro-Plastic? The latest EXP1 (1.8?) Aurora MS, and Ohmega AP definitely are..., it seems......

Dave,

Then why tease with other plastic? Everyone loved old CE. I mean they really LOVED it. It upset allot of players when you changed it. I am sure you are aware of that. So is it a matter of supply? Do you have not enough old CE material left? As you can see on EBAY the price of OLD CE is gone throw the roof and the reason is INNOVA stopped producing it. If you are telling us you have the material still why don’t you start making old CE again? Why did you have to change a good thing? I am sure you could figure out a way to run old CE again that would be legal for the PDGA. Thank you for your time Dave.

In case you didn't digest his answer, the reason was because it was too close to being over-the-line in terms of rigidity regulations. Safety is a very important issue, especially considering that we play disc golf in public parks. Are you saying Dave shouldn't make business decisions based on PDGA regulations?

If you feel you must have CE then buy it, but be prepared to pay a lot of $. The top pros seem to be doing okay without it.

[davei]

mf100, the Millenium were made of an older mix. Only the latest JLS run was made of the new mix.

In case you didn't digest his answer, the reason was because it was too close to being over-the-line in terms of rigidity regulations. Safety is a very important issue, especially considering that we play disc golf in public parks. Are you saying Dave shouldn't make business decisions based on PDGA regulations?

If you feel you must have CE then buy it, but be prepared to pay a lot of $. The top pros seem to be doing okay without it.

Well Gateway S plastic is way more stiff than any CE plastic could be. You could hammer nails with a S Blaze. If this stuff is legal, why not CE.

I think the real reason they discontinued it was because the material was not nice to work with and they ended up with many x-outs and unuseable discs (I've heard as many as one in three). When you make 3 discs and can only sell 2, it gets extremely expensive. The new Champion, although lesser in quality, is much more consistant.

[williethekid]

People still pay top dollar for CE discs and if its the newer models that wouldn't pass pdga regs, than y not just make the older models you already have used CE for. i.e. Teebirds, Firebirds, etc. Also dave will we be seeing FL's anytime soon? maybe in the new pro/champ plastic blend?

[tbender]

Also dave will we be seeing FL's anytime soon? maybe in the new pro/champ plastic blend?

[img]/msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img] [img]/msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img]

[widiscgolf]

Just answer the question please.

Still funny how the Questions were not answered.

And even more pathetic how some morons can't understand a simple, straightforward answer.

[widiscgolf]

Please do explain. Coming from someone who using the word moron. hehe. No Clue!

[Blarg]

I've seen a few pros with CE plastic in their bags, and most of the older (over 30) 'elite' players at my local use them all the time.
I suspect the 'one out of three' didn't come out right issue is more to the point as to why they're not made anymore(?).

Here is something Dave previously posted (see April 2004 portion of this thread):

"there is a safety concern for the drivers. Ideally, I would like a plastic that has enough flex for safety and enough stiffness for a good feel. Make no mistake though, safety comes first."

[Blarg]

robj:

I certainly agree with the safety first issue. However, I don't perceive the CE plastic discs as any more dangerous than my Champion or even DX discs.
I once threw a 175g DX Valkyrie about 220 feet that hyzered way more than I thought it would and it hit my friend who was out in a field retrieving his disc way off to the left. I never thought my throw would come near him. It did. I yelled 'FORE! LOOK OUT!' etc., but somehow hit him in the side of the knee anyway. He went down like he'd been shot.
Dropped to the ground like a can of tuna. There was no serious injury and he was fine, but I think he'd have been just as fine had it been a CE disc that hit him.
DX seems to be just as dense as CE and maybe even a bit less flexible.
I may be wrong, but I don't think the CE plastic mystery is because of safety issues.

Feel free to reply with: "WRONG!" if I'm wrong.

[Blarg]

If it is indeed a safety issue, then CE plastic should not be allowed in tournaments.
It is allowed. They are 'PDGA approved.'
So why can't it be made anymore?

You can buy CE discs on eBay for about 80 dollars. You can then use them in a tournament. This seems a bit unfair.

[davei]

willie, if we run FLs, it should be out of candy plastic. The Pro plastic, in an FL mold could make it less than stable. But, I imagine it's worth a try at some point.

An adult being hit in the knee is not a worse-case-scenario. Of course playing catch with a baseball in a public park also presents potential dangers. No disc is completely safe, it is more a matter of degree. I myself carry a CE Valkyrie.

From what I have read, it sounds like the PDGA informed Innova that the CE line was borderline in terms of rigidity. Innova therefore modified the plastic in response.

There may be examples of discs not officially banned that are too rigid. Probably the PDGA doesn't want to be too rigid (pun unintended) with disc manufacturers since our sport depends upon them. Other manufacturers may be less responsive to PDGA feedback than Innova. This is all conjecture on my part and this thread is about Dave's perspective not mine, so I think I better bow out.

Absence makes the heart grow fonder. Perhaps you are too in love with CE to look fairly at this issue

[widiscgolf]

That is so not why, and you know that. Sounds like excuses.

[gokayaksteven]

i just got an s illusion that is way stiffer/harder than my 1st run ce valks...

[davei]

Josh, I have no idea what point you are trying to make. If we could make the discs the same and everyone would buy them and be happy, we would. We are not withholding, if that is your premise. We have tested the identical material in Rocs, and there was no difference between that "pure" material and our regular Champion mix for flight or durability. There is a possibility that the material gets tougher as it ages. Not likely after a few days. For now, it's a mystery why the first plastic batch was a little different.

[davei]

Steven, if that s illusion is "way stiffer/harder" than your first run Valk, and if it has a similarly large rim, it has to be illegal. Maybe you should bring that to the attention of Jeff Homburg, who does the PDGA testing. He is who told me our original discs were borderline stiff.