Ask Dave Dunipace About Innova Discs

[davei]

Hi Dave,

forgive me if this has been covered before but i hear the Star Bosses have two different stamps -- the ones from Innova West reportedly have slashes in between the rating numbers and read "PDGA Approved - innovadiscs.com" in the Swoosh. The ones from Innova East reportedly have boxes around the rating numbers and a solid Swoosh.

are they all the same run and will we be seeing this with other molds too?

The stamp is irrelevant. It's not indicative of a different run. Both stamps were supposed to look like the East coast stamp. We are planning on putting flight numbers on all of our discs in the future.

[davei]

I found a big batch of Pro Wraiths at my local disc golf store that were labeled "P-DD". Were these just labeled incorrectly or possibly Distance Drivers with the wrong stamp?

Could be either. I think it was a marking error. The P-DD has a thicker rim. You should be able to tell the difference side by side if you have a known reference Wraith.

[mikeP]

Dave,

I have a couple of red Star Bosses that are completely transparent. They are not quite as clear as most champion discs, but you can see details through them. Do these discs have Champion plastic mixed in? Why do different star plastic discs in the same mold vary so much in translucence? I was under the impression that Star was its own polymer rather than a blend. Is this wrong? Thanks as always!

[dgdave]

I have 3 reds and they are all like that. Most of my red star discs (mainly TBs) are the same way. I hunt them down.

[davei]

Dave,

I have a couple of red Star Bosses that are completely transparent. They are not quite as clear as most champion discs, but you can see details through them. Do these discs have Champion plastic mixed in? Why do different star plastic discs in the same mold vary so much in translucence? I was under the impression that Star was its own polymer rather than a blend. Is this wrong? Thanks as always!

Star has always been a blend. It started with night shift Orcs, progressed to Special Blend, then to Star. The new Star for long range drivers like Bosses and Destroyers has a different blend that allows for lighter weights and more stability at those lighter weights. The discs you have might be mis-marked or transition discs.

[noely757]

Dave just wondering. I haven't had to purchase approach discs for a while but I'm finally running out. I was wondering which aviar is most like my beloved Big-Bead Aviar circa 2000-2001. The Classic? also would either the Star P&A or the Star Aviar Driver be similiar just in a newer plastic?

[Furthur]

Dave, do you find that the new blend of star performs well in the wind at lighter weights? I wouldn't expect a lighter disc to have as much penetrating power, but does it hold it's line well?

[ANHYZER]

Dave,

Have you ever considered designing a disc specifically for overhand distance shots? Nothing like the Epic, but more like a Firebird/Monster designed to enhance speed/spin and slow down the precession of the flight?

[SARG27044]

Dave,

Have you ever considered designing a disc specifically for overhand distance shots? Nothing like the Epic, but more like a Firebird/Monster designed to enhance speed/spin and slow down the precession of the flight?

This is a great idea!!

[davei]

Dave just wondering. I haven't had to purchase approach discs for a while but I'm finally running out. I was wondering which aviar is most like my beloved Big-Bead Aviar circa 2000-2001. The Classic? also would either the Star P&A or the Star Aviar Driver be similiar just in a newer plastic?

Big Bead is a driver Aviar usually. We have three or four kinds of driver Aviars including KC, JK, Star, DX for custom stamping.

[davei]

Dave, do you find that the new blend of star performs well in the wind at lighter weights? I wouldn't expect a lighter disc to have as much penetrating power, but does it hold it's line well?

Absolutely for Bosses. I haven't really tried Destroyers for winds yet, but I would assume they are just as good. I have been playing with 166 gm Star Bosses for several weeks and although they have lost their edge a little, are still quite good in the wind.

[davei]

Dave,

Have you ever considered designing a disc specifically for overhand distance shots? Nothing like the Epic, but more like a Firebird/Monster designed to enhance speed/spin and slow down the precession of the flight?

I have thought about it, but haven't done anything about it yet. I haven't gotten around to studying the aerodynamics of an upside down throw yet. I know what happens, but I don't know why yet. Speed is not an issue, but slowing down precession is.

[ANHYZER]

I have thought about it, but haven't done anything about it yet. I haven't gotten around to studying the aerodynamics of an upside down throw yet. I know what happens, but I don't know why yet. Speed is not an issue, but slowing down precession is.

What I meant by speed was speed of the spin, since that would keep the disc from precessing to quickly.

[davei]

What I meant by speed was speed of the spin, since that would keep the disc from precessing to quickly.

Although it's logical, this is not necessarily true for inverted "flight". Some of the worst discs with poor rotational inertia, "fly" with very slow precession upside down. 40 molds and Zephyrs come to mind.

Also, I am not at all sure it's "precession" we see when we watch the disc corkscrew. From my experience with upside down flight starting in the late seventies with Frisbees, I would tend to call it a flight characteristic, rather than precession. That would help to explain why discs with widely different spin energies turn similarly, and why discs with virtually identical spin energies, turn at widely different rates.

But, as I said before, I haven't really studied upside down flight with an eye toward designing a disc, I have only observed what I have observed.

[mikeP]

Hey Dave,

I've thrown half a dozen Grooves and close to 30 different Champ and Star Bosses and I have found that the flight ratings are close, but still a little off. I know everybody throws differently, but I think I have a style and form fairly representative of most pros/top ams. Here are the ratings as I've experienced.

Boss--Innova says:13,5,-1,3
My opinion :13,5,-1/2,4

Groove--Innova says:13,6,-2,2
My opinion :12,6,-1,3

I'll justify my opinions by first noting that both these discs are as gyroscopic as I've thrown and both exhibit more LSS at the very end of their flights as any of your other straight distance drivers. The Boss always finishes harder than a Destroyer (LSS). I haven't met anyone disputing this. Also, the Groove seems much closer to the Destroyer in speed (12) than to the Boss (13). Looking purely at the ratings, one is led to believe that the Groove flies farther (same speed 13, more glide 6) than the Boss. Among those who have the armspeed to throw both, I've yet to hear of anyone who is throwing the Groove further. To me the Boss seems like Innova's fastest disc by some margin. Compared to other discs rated -1 & -2 in HSS, I find the speed and weight distribution of the Boss/Groove make them more low and high speed overstable. The Boss just gets up and rides flat, designed beautifully to flip up but not really over. To me, this flight is a -1/2. To get a -1, I have to start the Boss slightly turned over. To me, the Grooves I threw averaged -1, with some closer to a Boss and one that was close to the -2 rating. The Groove is definetely more stable from start to finish than say the Beast, which has identical HSS and LSS numbers.

These are only my opinions. I realize that the ratings were established before the market was flushed with these discs and everyone was throwing them. Flight ratings really pull my interest because I think that it helps people to spend their money more wisely and have more fun playing, especially early on. Its great that you are printing the ratings on your discs, I hope they are still subject to change as well. Thanks for your time.

[davei]

Hey Dave,

I've thrown half a dozen Grooves and close to 30 different Champ and Star Bosses and I have found that the flight ratings are close, but still a little off. I know everybody throws differently, but I think I have a style and form fairly representative of most pros/top ams. Here are the ratings as I've experienced.

Boss--Innova says:13,5,-1,3
My opinion :13,5,-1/2,4

Groove--Innova says:13,6,-2,2
My opinion :12,6,-1,3

I'll justify my opinions by first noting that both these discs are as gyroscopic as I've thrown and both exhibit more LSS at the very end of their flights as any of your other straight distance drivers. The Boss always finishes harder than a Destroyer (LSS). I haven't met anyone disputing this. Also, the Groove seems much closer to the Destroyer in speed (12) than to the Boss (13). Looking purely at the ratings, one is led to believe that the Groove flies farther (same speed 13, more glide 6) than the Boss. Among those who have the armspeed to throw both, I've yet to hear of anyone who is throwing the Groove further. To me the Boss seems like Innova's fastest disc by some margin. Compared to other discs rated -1 & -2 in HSS, I find the speed and weight distribution of the Boss/Groove make them more low and high speed overstable. The Boss just gets up and rides flat, designed beautifully to flip up but not really over. To me, this flight is a -1/2. To get a -1, I have to start the Boss slightly turned over. To me, the Grooves I threw averaged -1, with some closer to a Boss and one that was close to the -2 rating. The Groove is definetely more stable from start to finish than say the Beast, which has identical HSS and LSS numbers.

These are only my opinions. I realize that the ratings were established before the market was flushed with these discs and everyone was throwing them. Flight ratings really pull my interest because I think that it helps people to spend their money more wisely and have more fun playing, especially early on. Its great that you are printing the ratings on your discs, I hope they are still subject to change as well. Thanks for your time.

I can't really argue with your assessment. The ratings were originally assigned for the Boss when we were still getting the formula correct. At that time we had some very domey hss stable discs and some softer flatter discs that weren't very hss. It was an average. Since then we have been making consistently more stable discs.

The Groove is going through the same process, but it's been a little more difficult to pin that one down. Yes the ratings are subject to change and review over time. That being said, unless we use half numbers, or expand the scale again, some of the numbers are going to be a little off. Also, it's difficult to compare the turning numbers between speed classes. Within a speed class, it's much easier. Most throwers will not get any hss turn from a Groove, but 400 ft throwers will get significant turn.

[jgillia]

Dave

What distance range do you base your ratings on?

Hopefully that question makes sense. Im asking because I have 400+ ft power yet I throw with several people who are in the 275-300ft range. Obviously discs are going to fly much different for those two different ranges, so Im just curious what range you base your ratings on.

For example a disc rated 10,5,-1,2

For me would it be closer to a -2 HSS and for the guys with 300ft power would the HSS be closer to 0? If yo throw in the 360 range would those ratings be just right.

I am aware there are several different factors including form and arm speed, but Im just looking for a generalization of what power range you base your ratings on.

Thanks for your time

[pterodactyl]

I think it's based on how far Steve Wisecup throws them!

[citysmasher]

Absolutely for Bosses. I haven't really tried Destroyers for winds yet, but I would assume they are just as good. I have been playing with 166 gm Star Bosses for several weeks and although they have lost their edge a little, are still quite good in the wind.

It appears to be the shrinkage of the plastic. The lighter discs have more concavity on the bottom of the wing than the heavier ones. All of the Star have more shrinkage on the bottom of the wing than the first run Champ version.

In othr words the Champ are more like an "L" wing, and the Star is more of an X, with the lighter Star more like a XX.

I like it. I am throwing a disc in the 160 range for the first time in years, and I can lean on it.

If you could do this on purpose, man you would really have something...

[JerryChesterson]

The Leopard is sooooooo sweet! Just wanted to let you know! It is my new multi-purpose disc for bh rollers, fairway drives, short anhyzers, supper sraight shots, & overall control shots. I love rediscovering older discs.

[mrspank]

The Leopard is sooooooo sweet! Just wanted to let you know! It is my new multi-purpose disc for bh rollers, fairway drives, short anhyzers, supper sraight shots, & overall control shots. I love rediscovering older discs.

Which plastic and what weight are you throwing? I put an X-out champ 175g (without any obvious defects) in my bag a few weeks ago, but had to remove it because at >75% power, it would hyzer flip up and over at ~40% of its flight path and never return to flat or hyzer. I'd love to put a leopard back in the bag, but don't want to buy a bunch and try them out.

[davei]

Dave

What distance range do you base your ratings on?

Hopefully that question makes sense. Im asking because I have 400+ ft power yet I throw with several people who are in the 275-300ft range. Obviously discs are going to fly much different for those two different ranges, so Im just curious what range you base your ratings on.

For example a disc rated 10,5,-1,2

For me would it be closer to a -2 HSS and for the guys with 300ft power would the HSS be closer to 0? If yo throw in the 360 range would those ratings be just right.

I am aware there are several different factors including form and arm speed, but Im just looking for a generalization of what power range you base your ratings on.

Thanks for your time

We base the ratings on how the discs are being used. A hss of 0 for a putter is not the same as a hss 0 for a long range driver. The putter is assumed to be thrown in the 20 to 220 range, and the long range driver in the 300 + range. Bosses and Groves are only tested over 350 ft so if you can't throw 350 ft, you are definitely going to get different results.

[jgillia]

We base the ratings on how the discs are being used. A hss of 0 for a putter is not the same as a hss 0 for a long range driver. The putter is assumed to be thrown in the 20 to 220 range, and the long range driver in the 300 + range. Bosses and Groves are only tested over 350 ft so if you can't throw 350 ft, you are definitely going to get different results.

Thanks for the response...glad to know that I have been fairly accurate with my descriptions about the ratings to some of the newer players

[gippy]

I have a CE Leopard and it does what I want it too if you find it flips to easy try a fan grip and release it at more of a hyzer angle I throw pretty hard and this works for me to get it out 300-340 with out it flipping all the way but I know what you mean about it if I get on it too hard it flips and no chance of flatting at all

Which plastic and what weight are you throwing? I put an X-out champ 175g (without any obvious defects) in my bag a few weeks ago, but had to remove it because at >75% power, it would hyzer flip up and over at ~40% of its flight path and never return to flat or hyzer. I'd love to put a leopard back in the bag, but don't want to buy a bunch and try them out.

[drdisc]

Not everyone has the same power or arm speed. Is it time we had a disc launching device that all companies could use to rate new discs? Something like the Iron Byron for golf balls?

[shteev]

why hasnt that happened already. after over 20 years it surprises me that there isnt a machine that will test disc with "perfect" form everytime.

[davei]

why hasnt that happened already. after over 20 years it surprises me that there isnt a machine that will test disc with "perfect" form everytime.

This doesn't really make sense for disc flight. It is fine for a golf ball or baseball even. But discs don't fly in two dimensions. Spin, initial velocity, and angle of incidence with the club face, (trajectory) are everything for the ball.

Spin is relatively incidental for a disc throw, but necessary. The only two things that are the same are initial velocity and trajectory. In addition to these variables, for disc throwing we have nose attitude,disc characteristic, (right side up, and upside down), rim configuration, plastic type influencing grip. Gotta go.

[reallybadputter]

why hasnt that happened already. after over 20 years it surprises me that there isnt a machine that will test disc with "perfect" form everytime.

Are you volunteering to pony up the cash for such a device...

which still won't answer the question: How does it fly for me?

Callaway Golf had $1.12 Billion in revenue last year. We're small potatoes in comparison...

[shteev]

understood.

[cgkdisc]

It's cool idea and I know of a few who have tried to make a machine that would fling the disc. In the most recent attempt I heard about, they were trying to modify the launcher used for flinging clay pigeons in trap shooting.