Ask Dave Dunipace About Innova Discs

[dgdave]

the star stamped ones were marked *xc

[davei]

Dave- I had a question about the echostar xcals. I got a first run star stamp in the mint green thinking it was echostar plastic but the back just says xc. I thought the echo star ones were marked e-xc. Could this just be a labeling error or did you make regular star ones in the mint green also?

Just not marked. The mint green were echo.

[T Wrecks]

Dave,

Why was the original CE plastic discontinued? I once heard that is was because the plastic is indestructible, and Innova was losing sales because of it. What's the real story behind this, and will we ever see this beautiful creation again?

Thanks in advance.

-Travis

[okcacehole]

Dave:

Why hasn't Innova ever gone to just stamping the name of the disc on the disc rather than hand writing it?

could this just be a labeling error or did you make regular star ones in the mint green also?

Just not marked. The mint green were echo.

[/QUOTE]

[AviarX]

Dave,

Why was the original CE plastic discontinued? I once heard that is was because the plastic is indestructible, and Innova was losing sales because of it. What's the real story behind this, and will we ever see this beautiful creation again?

Thanks in advance.

-Travis

it's my understanding that the rigidity was borderline in terms of PDGA disc regulations, and once informed by the PDGA that much of the CE discs were borderline on that spec -- Innova voluntarily moved more into the 'safe' zone... that said, i'll hang up and listen for Dave's response...

[tafe]

True, true. Those first run Fl's and T's were off the charts. You could spend a day throwing them against a cement wall and they wouldn't change. The risk was always that if the PDGA required re-certification they would never pass. No flex.

[zbiberst]

i dont buy it. some runs of that CE stuff were more flexable than alot of the dx that comes out today. products and markets are usually driven by sales and consumption.

[cgkdisc]

Not sure but I think they couldn't get the plastic any more.

[Justin_E]

Dave, I saw a picture of the groove with the stats 13, 6, -2, 1. Are those numbers acurate? If so it would seem to be a dramatic leap in technology. Only 1 for low speed fade and a glide of 6? Seems hard to believe but I can't wait to try it out.

[davei]

Not sure but I think they couldn't get the plastic any more.

We could get the plastic with the same name, but it wasn't the same. The manufacturer apparently changed the formula. It was softer and not as scratch resistant.

[davei]

Dave, I saw a picture of the groove with the stats 13, 6, -2, 1. Are those numbers acurate? If so it would seem to be a dramatic leap in technology. Only 1 for low speed fade and a glide of 6? Seems hard to believe but I can't wait to try it out.

The fade number should probably be 2, instead of 1. Initial testing was a little different than the main run. Fade numbers for the wide rim discs are more difficult to pin down as they are very dependent on nose angle at release. Any nose up will make the disc appear to be more overstable and nose down will appear to have less fade and stability.

[mikeP]

We could get the plastic with the same name, but it wasn't the same. The manufacturer apparently changed the formula. It was softer and not as scratch resistant.

Another plastic question...So they definetely changed the formula @ the time CE was discontinued. Are they continually changing it, or are the other plastic variations different blends that you guys have experimented with? Just wondering for example why an 11x Champ Teebird doesn't feel quite the same as a new one, etc.

Also, did you ever get any feedback from the polymer manufacturer as to why the change in formula?

[Justin_E]

The fade number should probably be -2, instead of -1.

Sorry. But do you mean the fade should be 2 instead of 1?

[davei]

Another plastic question...So they definetely changed the formula @ the time CE was discontinued. Are they continually changing it, or are the other plastic variations different blends that you guys have experimented with? Just wondering for example why an 11x Champ Teebird doesn't feel quite the same as a new one, etc.

Also, did you ever get any feedback from the polymer manufacturer as to why the change in formula?

Every batch of candy type plastic might be slightly different. It gets changed all the time. Yes we do also experiment, but that is sometimes to make up for the manufacturer change.

[John Keith]

ok that all could be true...but of course all the guys who through old shcool CE are still bitter and have conspiracy theories... i would personally pay 20-25 $ per disc of CE material.
i work in manufacturing..if the supplier changes on me, i have options! for one he owes me an explanation (detail) as to why and what changed. also you guys are not the smallest order he has, im sure you are a good spending customer and it seems he would want to keep your blend of plastic just the way you wanted it. that's called customer service and good business. ............
And by no means am i trying to argue...but you hear Golfers just like all of us. You know how bad All the Golfers want CE...look at how much people pay for CE....looking out how its gone and now only a traded commodity....it feeds into all the conspiracies that you guys just want to play the Supply and Demand game. I know your a business but if this is true it goes against most DiscGolf Ideals about getting away from that Corporate Crap and Political game..
Are you telling me Its Not Possible to create CE plastic as we used to Know it???

[John Keith]

I know a sponsored Pro who said he saw an Innova Wharehouse full....yes FULL of CE disc???

[citysmasher]

I know a sponsored Pro who said he saw an Innova Wharehouse full....yes FULL of CE disc???

AREA 51?

[davei]

Are you telling me Its Not Possible to create CE plastic as we used to Know it???

Yes, we can't get or make the same exact formula. We have tried multiple times. And, if we had a "warehouse full of CE discs", we would sell them. Warehouse space is very expensive in California.

[mikeP]

I have been on this forum 5+ years and I have asked and read and listened to all of the conspiracy arguments. Here's my take:

Innova first of all is not a major buyer. Think about all the industries that use plastic that are 100x the size of DG. Not too much clout.

Second, Innova had no idea that CE plastic would come to be so revered. They probably were nervous that no one would throw it initially because it was so different and it was expensive with a lot of waste parts. I bet in a way they were glad when the formula changed because it meant less waste and more consistency.

Third, now that time has passed it is easy to see that plastic just continually changes and fluxes formula-speaking. Some flies better than others. Every run of CE was different, and the plastic that came out during the transition from CE to Champ is even revered today (original proline, 11x firebirds and teebirds).

Lastly I ask, is CE really better? Sure it flies differently from other plastics, but so does every other plastic. Some people got very used to those discs and how they fly, so they don't want to change. Does this mean these discs make them better players? I don't think so.

I think that if Innova could make CE, then they would for CFR or something similar to fill the lingering demand. I don't think that Dave or Harold, etc. believe CE is overall the best material for Innova or the players. It wasn't very grippy, was very rigid, and didn't fill out the molds well. Let it go...

[MattyInRR]

Hey Dave!

Have the current run of star destroyers (with the bottom stamp) had the same process done to them as the night shift destroyers? If not, when will they be available?

[AviarX]

I know a sponsored Pro who said he saw an Innova Wharehouse full....yes FULL of CE disc???

did he mention that was several years ago?

[discspeed:] now that time has passed it is easy to see that plastic just continually changes and fluxes formula-speaking. Some flies better than others. Every run of CE was different, and the plastic that came out during the transition from CE to Champ is even revered today (original proline, 11x firebirds and teebirds).

Lastly I ask, is CE really better? Sure it flies differently from other plastics, but so does every other plastic. Some people got very used to those discs and how they fly, so they don't want to change. Does this mean these discs make them better players? I don't think so.

dude, it's the STAMP!!!! while the blend was special too, that stamp was absolutely awesome and we need it back! it actually fosters confidence in the psyche of the thrower! (for those who agree with that i am serious, for those who think that's nuts: i'm just kidding) ... maybe a little (slight) tweak could be done to the stamp to serve the collectors and oldschool CE diehards. seriously though, i would love to see that stamp brought back!

[citysmasher]

Lastly I ask, is CE really better?

No.

It worked well with some molds.

I think the best plastic is hard Star and they are eliminating that. HAHAHAHAHA!!! I have a Wraith that is two years old and still beefy. How long should a disc last?

[rickb]

I know a sponsored Pro who said he saw an Innova Wharehouse full....yes FULL of CE disc???

It wasn't a warehouse in the true sense. It was my storage garage. And there were only a few cases in there. I'm thinking with the old Innova bar stamp signs I have hanging in there that maybe he got confused and thought it was the Innova warehouse. Only 30 minutes away you know and he wasn't from around here.

As for the original CE not being grippy. You're wrong. The original CE plastic had that powder residue on it, somewhat similar to the old regular Discraft plastic, that made it grippy. I've got a 1st run Valk and a 2002 ROC still in the bag that has this residue on them. You can still to this day wipe it away, but it always comes back. Grippy after 8 years.

[Justin_E]

Dave,

On stability ratings. I have always wondered about the ratings of certain discs. I know we shouldnt put too much into the ratings but for example. How can a classic roc (I'm a huge fan) which is to me one of if not the straightest non putter disc have a low speed fade of 2 and a teebird has the same. A TL has a 1. Do you perhaps apply a different standard to rating slower discs? Or maybe is it just that things have changed over time and ratings have not been updated? Because there is no way a classic roc has more low speed fade than a TL. By the way, please don't ever stop making the classic roc.

[davei]

Hey Dave!

Have the current run of star destroyers (with the bottom stamp) had the same process done to them as the night shift destroyers? If not, when will they be available?

No Star Destroyers except the NS type had the process done to them and won't. That process (more stable) will be done in the next Champion Destroyer run. The Star Destroyers will be run with a new Star and Starlight mix. Hopefully the Star Destroyers will be made down to the low 160s. The new Star blend may result in the lower weights being more stable than the higher weights. The Starlight Bosses we made were nicely stable at 166gms and lower in X parts.

[davei]

Dave,

On stability ratings. I have always wondered about the ratings of certain discs. I know we shouldnt put too much into the ratings but for example. How can a classic roc (I'm a huge fan) which is to me one of if not the straightest non putter disc have a low speed fade of 2 and a teebird has the same. A TL has a 1. Do you perhaps apply a different standard to rating slower discs? Or maybe is it just that things have changed over time and ratings have not been updated? Because there is no way a classic roc has more low speed fade than a TL. By the way, please don't ever stop making the classic roc.

Yes, the numbers for the putters and midranges don't really compare to the drivers when it comes to fade, especially. The fade numbers are for comparison across the charts from left to right, but don't correspond well when going between speed ranges. Speed number are for up and down the chart comparisons. Glide and high speed stability are with respect to the speed and range the discs are expected to be operated in.

[Justin_E]

Yes, the numbers for the putters and midranges don't really compare to the drivers when it comes to fade, especially. The fade numbers are for comparison across the charts from left to right, but don't correspond well when going between speed ranges. Speed number are for up and down the chart comparisons. Glide and high speed stability are with respect to the speed and range the discs are expected to be operated in.

Ahhhh. Thanks Dave. That explains a lot. So in addition to the stability being relative to the speed, the glide is as well. A speed 7 disc with a glide of 5 does not actually have the same glide per se as a speed 12 disc with a glide of 5 huh. Thanks again for the attention you give to all of the questions on here.

[John Keith]

ok Disc Speed: CE is amazing and the disc stay stable original for longer and are way grippy for "durable" plastic. The Teebirds, leapords are way better in CE. It is the best plastic ever...Star or Champ doesnt come close
And RICKB, your right? you must know who im talking about b/c it was not in Cali....but in NC so it must have just been your garage....what was your address again????....lol J/K dont tell me ill jack you.
My father who makes up Plastic equations for EXXOn Mobil told me if we brought a CE disc to a manufacture of plastic that they could with in 99% accuracy determine the excact plastic and even in todays plastic market could re-plicate it. So we could have CE if Innova wanted or desired to produce it. In the universe we live in with plastic it is Possible. (we can't get or make the same exact formula. We have tried multiple times)

[John Keith]

Thats fine....if innova want one day someone will find the consistancy of CE and if Innova is not being a Patent Snobb will re-produce it.

[zaschenbach1]

hey innova just released 500 eco star grooves!! only 500 made!!! black and orange 175,170and 172 look on ebay!! Collector alert only 500 grooves made eco star!!!!