Ask Dave Dunipace About Innova Discs

[BigMack]

I too have tried the KC and it just didn't work for my hand. The ones that I tried seemed a little domier & deeper than the JK. The thing that I like about the JK is that it is the perfect balance of stiff and soft and it just feels good in my hand. For me, the JK can get a little slick when my hands are dry. I am currently trying to trasition to the DX Aviar PA just because it feels great and I have really started to like the beadless Aviar. But, when my putting seems to struggle with the DX (during this transition), I still fall back on the good ole' JK.

[JHBlader86]

I think its time for the JK throwers to rise up, and rebel against the KC throwers!!!

[AviarX]

I think its time for the JK throwers to rise up, and rebel against the KC throwers!!!

we're throwing the same mold people! but if the KC'ers want war -- JK will win! Lao Tzu: "soft overcomes hard"
water is the softest thing in the world, yet overcomes the hardest (think grand canyon!)

[davei]

which team member putts with the soft Rhyno?

There are a couple, but one is Michael Johansen who putts with a soft Rhyno and throws a KC Aviar as well.

[citysmasher]

Are there any plans to make a KC Pro Aviar "like" driver in Star?

Something that will take the speed and snap of the KC Pro?

I do not know why, but a KC Pro Aviar will take a lot of wind and snap without flipping when new.

[davei]

we're throwing the same mold people!

Good point Rob. We make the same mold in several types of plastic not only for grip preferences, but also the way the various materials act on the chains. We also make many different putters for different sized hands, flight characterists, etc. One putter does not fit all, though the KC Aviar is our most popular team putter. At least three of our team members have used Birdies. Nolan Grider uses an Aero. Different strokes for different folks.

Sweaty hand people tend to prefer stiffer plastic. Dry hand people tend to prefer softer stickier plastic. Also soft plastic tends to grab chains on the right side of the target and grab and roll off the chains on the left RH. Stiff plastic hits the chains softer, especially on the left side, but is more likely to experience a blow through. Pole hits are deader head on for a stiffy.

[davei]

Are there any plans to make a KC Pro Aviar "like" driver in Star?

Something that will take the speed and snap of the KC Pro?

I do not know why, but a KC Pro Aviar will take a lot of wind and snap without flipping when new.

We have made the Star Aviar Driver from the same mold.

[Greatzky2]

I actually carry 3 versions of the Aviar with me when i play. I have a Classic Aviar for driving turnover/hyzerflip shots, My JK for long distance jump putting and driving in the winter, and a NO date stamped KC pro Aviar for Putting and also for Hyzer drives and airbounce approaches. I will putt with the classic as well, but I actually prefer the feel of the kc..
So I guess i'm a stiff plastic aviar guy, but I do enjoy the JK's for long distance spin putting.

-Scott Lewis

[the_kid]

Sweaty hand people tend to prefer stiffer plastic. Dry hand people tend to prefer softer stickier plastic. Also soft plastic tends to grab chains on the right side of the target and grab and roll off the chains on the left RH. Stiff plastic hits the chains softer, especially on the left side, but is more likely to experience a blow through. Pole hits aredeader head on for a stiffy.

Ok here is what I have noticed since switching. The stiffer putters do not cut through much at all. Heck at 05' AM worlds everyone on the leadercard except me was using a stiff putter and they had a lot less cut throughs and especially bounce outs. That may seem strange but a SS putter will hit directly on the pole "coil" and then rebound back out of the basket while a stiff putter will deflect up if it is a little nose up or down if it is coming in nose down. The ony time a stiff putter bouces out is when it hit almost perfectly square.

Most of these spits/bounceouts/cutthroughs occur on baskets other than the Discatcher(my favorite basket I get to play on in tournaments) and that Gatewasy thing. The fact is that if you hit the weak spot on a Mach III it will probably go through no matter what putter it is.

The benifit I have seen from players who switch or even try a stiffer putter is that they hit the "sweet spot" more often than when they use a SS putter due to less friction on the release. I used a Omega SS for my 1st year and then a 3x JK for the next three and I was way more stubborn about switching then you guys are but I would still advise that you try one out for a week.

[AviarX]

Matt, i can appreciate your experience and what works for you -- but even so with my feel preferences a JK is hands down ( ) better than a stiffer version. if it doesn't feel right in my hands i'm not going to putt as well with it.

Al Schack pointed out to me after i had a decent putt "bounce out" low off the pole that JK's have more bounce outs (i asked if he thought i would be better off with KC's and he pointed out it is a trade off -- KC's have more spit thrus (later his KC demonstrated that for me). Dave makes that same point upthread. knowing what the strengths are of the type of putter you're using should help mitigate the drawbacks.

if you're sold on stiffer by emphasizing the advantages it brings (and because Blake recommends them) and because you can deal with the feel -- go for it. just a warning though -- as you get older your hands will become more and more dry LOL

btw, i also take pride in throwing Juliana's signature disc. in the videos i have seen her in, she is never happy with herself over her shot no matter how good. i admire that

it's weird how in a game where i am never satisfied and often disappointed with my play, i have off-the-charts fun

[gdstour]

Dave D,
Do you remember back in 1996 when Carrie Keeler (5-10" tall, blond ex-girlfriend, great athlete and physical specimen who took you to the hole in the ware house) and I came to your shop and you and I were discussing stiff Big beads and why I used them?
I mentioned to you that I used stiffer and less grippy surface Aviars for laying up for 2 main reasons.
1) when a stiffer putter hits the ground it will spin in place for a second similar to checking up on the green with as a golf ball will with back spin.
This same thing happens in the chains,especially on left side hits ( Kenny's specialty).
2) when throwing lay up shots through foliage a harder less grippy putter has way less chance of getting hung up on leaves and branches.

I remember asking you time and again for a softer big bead for putting.
I got some of those first orange small Innova stamped big beads from Bob Dodge in a Plastic that was the 1st run of DX, it was very similar what was eventually produced in the 8X rocs. firm yet grippy on the surface.

I have never been known for being a great putter but have seen many over the years.
I have also taken slow motion video of discs hitting the chains and have watched for hours.
Fromour test results, medium and firmer Putters catch way more putts than Super soft.


You don't see a trend over the years with Innovas' top ranked players and their migration towards firmer putters.
I know both Kenny and Barry use VERY firm putters and since they are 2 of the best players ever in disc golf, I see a lot of golfers emulating their style.
Their push-flick style works much better with a firmer putter than a more flexible one.

[discette]

One putter does not fit all..
































































although the Aviar comes close.

[thetruthxl]

Dave,
Any chance that innova can invent a putter to satisfy both parties?
A stiff centered putter with a grippy outer layer?
After reading pages of posts on the subject, just wanted to interject.

Also, What are the plans on the usdgc rocs? is there a contest for the artwork or do you already have some ideas?
My vote is for descrete complexity. A small design of great detail and coolness!

[rizbee]

Neat question! I'm guessing that the answer will be that it will be difficult if not impossible to consistently merge(?) two types of plastics via injection molding alone.

But how about something like the Quest/Odyssey putter?

[DSproAVIAR]

I have also noticed that (when throwing RHBH) firm putters will stick better on the right side, and bounce out more on the left side. Softer putters will stick more on the left side, and bounce out more on the right side. I like a soft wiz for inside the circle, and a stiffer 10x for jumpers and upshots.

[oddgeir]

How big is the difference between pro FL and star FL?
I might guess that pro FL has an s-curve and star FL straight and fade.
Like a beat in vs new teebird whitout the glide?

[bschweberger]

The Star FL is way more Overstable than the Pro FL. Both are still flippy for overhands.

[oddgeir]

Ok, thanks. So a star FL would go predictably straight and fade, were a champ/star Firebird would fade too early with forhand?

[JHBlader86]

Dave,
Any chance that innova can invent a putter to satisfy both parties?
A stiff centered putter with a grippy outer layer?
After reading pages of posts on the subject, just wanted to interject.

Also, What are the plans on the usdgc rocs? is there a contest for the artwork or do you already have some ideas?
My vote is for descrete complexity. A small design of great detail and coolness!

Mixing the two would definitely be excellent and satisfy alot of people. A great grip with plenty of stability in the center for straighter, more accurate shots would be the ideal putter for everyone.

[accidentalROLLER]

I was told they will be inspected around Friday. If they pass inspection, they should be available within a week or so after.

What's the word Dave? This was 2 weeks ago.....I guess they didn't pass inspection.

[the_kid]

Mixing the two would definitely be excellent and satisfy alot of people. A great grip with plenty of stability in the center for straighter, more accurate shots would be the ideal putter for everyone.

Why? I mean the soft outer edge would still yeild the possibility of an inconsistant release just like any other SS.

[Lyle O Ross]

Pitch putt vs. spin putt

check out this post too!

I'm not sure that I agree with Dave Dunipace on his definitions. The idea that one is a spin putt and the other is a pitch putt seems incorrect (if the idea is that a pitch has no spin) even for Ken and Barry. It is highly unlikely that either could toss a putter 50 or 60 feet with absolutley no spin (see Worlds Coverage and USDGC footage from 2003 - 2005) Turbo putts which are almost devoid of spin tend to fall very fast and non-spin discs tend to flip head over tail.

Ken and Barry don't put much spin on their discs (Barry seems to put less than Ken) but there is spin. I use the Pitch putt myself, for the obvious reason that the two top players in the world use it. But I use what I would refer to as a modified Pitch Putt. I place my hand well forward on the disc with my forefinger on the rim, my second or middle finger on the underside of the plate and my ring finger and pinky loose or lightly resting on the plastic next to my forefinger. As I lift the disc I add spin with my wrist spinning the disc lightly off of my forefinger.

When done right I can get a lot of float and hit some very long (40 feet) putts with this technique.

Pluses: The disc spins so there is no wobble and it looks beautiful in flight (I get less wobble than many of the "spin" putters out there). While my tendancy is to throw an arching putt, you can get enough spin to throw a very flat putt that rises just enough to clear the basket similar to a spin putt. You're also working more in one plain than in two although the spin you're putting on the disc does tend to bring the horizontal plain back into play. By using a more arching throw you tend to spare yourself the flybys that can come with the "spin" putt.

BTW, I tend to call them the push putt (spin putt) and the lift putt (pitch putt) which does not imply spin one way or the other. I've seen guys do each type with more and less spin.

[Lyle O Ross]

Harder putters=more consistant release. I took me 5 years to figure this out as well as Blake_T hounding me about it until I switched but it has helped my game tremendously.

I also was using the 3x JK's.

In defense of the postion taken by Matt and Mr. Gateway, when I first started playing everyone said get a soft putter, it flexes when it hits the chains and thus avoids bounce outs. There is another way to view this. When we toss a disc into the basket we impart energy on the disc. a hard disc hit's the chains and either the energy disapates into the chains and basket or some amount remains in the disc and it flies through. A soft disc may do the same thing, but it may also flex maintaining more energy in the disc, in the form of the flex. When that energy disapates, i.e. the disc unflexes, where does the energy go? If some of the energy went into the chains and they are now pushing back, and the flex happens at the same time, you have a lot of energy going back out to the side of the basket and a spit out.

Now, I'm not saying that's what happens, but I have a tendancy to believe science. When Mr. Gateway says they've videotaped lots of putts and see a difference, I wonder why. So, Mr. Gateway, did you guys do your experiments with a machine (a putting machine) or by hand, and what are the numbers.

Using Champion Aviars since 2005!

[davei]

Dave,
Any chance that innova can invent a putter to satisfy both parties?
A stiff centered putter with a grippy outer layer?
After reading pages of posts on the subject, just wanted to interject.

Also, What are the plans on the usdgc rocs? is there a contest for the artwork or do you already have some ideas?
My vote is for descrete complexity. A small design of great detail and coolness!

yes, you can have a relatively stiff center and a grippy rim. We have the plastic, but we haven't figured how to make it work properly yet.

I don't know anything about the artwork on the USDGC Rocs. The East Coast takes care of that. I make them. They are listening to the feedback you guys are giving. So am I.

[davei]

Neat question! I'm guessing that the answer will be that it will be difficult if not impossible to consistently merge(?) two types of plastics via injection molding alone.

But how about something like the Quest/Odyssey putter?

Both can be done. Just depends how you set it up.

[davei]

I was told they will be inspected around Friday. If they pass inspection, they should be available within a week or so after.

What's the word Dave? This was 2 weeks ago.....I guess they didn't pass inspection.

[/QUOTE]

They passed inspection last Friday. They should be available this Friday or Monday after. The East Coast should know better than I.

[davei]

I'm not sure that I agree with Dave Dunipace on his definitions. The idea that one is a spin putt and the other is a pitch putt seems incorrect (if the idea is that a pitch has no spin) even for Ken and Barry. It is highly unlikely that either could toss a putter 50 or 60 feet with absolutley no spin (see Worlds Coverage and USDGC footage from 2003 - 2005) Turbo putts which are almost devoid of spin tend to fall very fast and non-spin discs tend to flip head over tail.

Ken and Barry don't put much spin on their discs (Barry seems to put less than Ken) but there is spin. I use the Pitch putt myself, for the obvious reason that the two top players in the world use it. But I use what I would refer to as a modified Pitch Putt. I place my hand well forward on the disc with my forefinger on the rim, my second or middle finger on the underside of the plate and my ring finger and pinky loose or lightly resting on the plastic next to my forefinger. As I lift the disc I add spin with my wrist spinning the disc lightly off of my forefinger.

When done right I can get a lot of float and hit some very long (40 feet) putts with this technique.

Pluses: The disc spins so there is no wobble and it looks beautiful in flight (I get less wobble than many of the "spin" putters out there). While my tendancy is to throw an arching putt, you can get enough spin to throw a very flat putt that rises just enough to clear the basket similar to a spin putt. You're also working more in one plain than in two although the spin you're putting on the disc does tend to bring the horizontal plain back into play. By using a more arching throw you tend to spare yourself the flybys that can come with the "spin" putt.

BTW, I tend to call them the push putt (spin putt) and the lift putt (pitch putt) which does not imply spin one way or the other. I've seen guys do each type with more and less spin.

Actually, I agree with you, and don't call it the "spin" putt, I call it the fly putt, and the main difference between the pitch and the fly, is the down to up arm motion for the pitch, and the much more level arm extension for the fly. A couple of my associates writing the EDGE manual insisted that "Spin" was the correct name even after I said the same thing you did.

[the_kid]

I had a few problems with Lyle's post. For instance I think we have a totally different idea of a turbo putt and just because it is called a "pitch" putt that doesn't mean it doesn't spin. Also when I think spin I don't think Barry and Ken but more Avery and Dave. JD Ramirez also has a great putt which is more of a straight line pitch.

I also consider nearly every pitch putter to use the "push" motion which occurs during/after the finger spring. One really good example of a push putter who doesn't pitch is Chris "Machine" Heeren and he pushes the disc with his palm a whole lot and he is in the top 3 putters I know.

Most people hear in the Houston area are spin or throw putters but the few who pitch seem to rise above the rest. You should also be able to do a pitch up to 40ft with little spin and with a little more you can easily get to 50'. BTW I don't think Barry's putt is his strong point especially his 20 footers.

[okcacehole]

Dave..when was the CFR starfire debut..was it late 2003 or early 2004?

[tokyo]

I have a first run green CFR starfire form the Am WOrlds Doub's and I think it was a 2004, but I know the disc was out before that so I am thinking 2003. It came out after the orc did so that might help place it.