Ask Dave Dunipace About Innova Discs - Page 241

rangel · Nov 29 2006, 03:43 PM

Quote:

I used to have an "operating range" for our discs, but the rest of the staff thought it was too hard to understand. We instead sometimes indicated that some discs were better for beginners or were only for "experienced" players or something like that. You are definitely right about the operating speed for discs. The flight descriptions we give are predicated on someone being able to throw 300 ft. But even the ability to throw 300 ft won't get some of the higher speed discs to work properly. People who are only able to throw 280 ft will find all of our drivers to be stable or overstable.

Dave, My mind started spinning (now I'm dizzy).
Where do you think a person (throwing in this 275' to 300' range) should draw the line. As in throwing a driver correctly vs throwing something that fades all the time.
Drivers that are more "straight" like Valks and Orion LS.
Drivers that have more right turn (RHBH) like Sidewinders.
Maybe a step down the ladder: Teebirds, Eagles, JLS
Maybe another step down the ladder: Gazelles, Leopards, Polaris LS.

My own distance is in the 280' to 300' to 320' range and I find my Eagles and JLSs going nearly the same distance(s) as my Valks and Orion LFs.

Or maybe this would be better (although not my situation). You are working with someone younger (or older for that matter). You started this person with a putter and then some type of mid. Their form is OK (not great). They are just now getting ready for driver. What would you hand them first?

DSproAVIAR · Nov 29 2006, 03:46 PM

leopard?

veganray · Nov 29 2006, 04:08 PM

150 Leopard

davei · Nov 29 2006, 04:40 PM

Quote:

I used to have an "operating range" for our discs, but the rest of the staff thought it was too hard to understand. We instead sometimes indicated that some discs were better for beginners or were only for "experienced" players or something like that. You are definitely right about the operating speed for discs. The flight descriptions we give are predicated on someone being able to throw 300 ft. But even the ability to throw 300 ft won't get some of the higher speed discs to work properly. People who are only able to throw 280 ft will find all of our drivers to be stable or overstable.

Dave, My mind started spinning (now I'm dizzy).
Where do you think a person (throwing in this 275' to 300' range) should draw the line. As in throwing a driver correctly vs throwing something that fades all the time.
Drivers that are more "straight" like Valks and Orion LS.
Drivers that have more right turn (RHBH) like Sidewinders.
Maybe a step down the ladder: Teebirds, Eagles, JLS
Maybe another step down the ladder: Gazelles, Leopards, Polaris LS.

My own distance is in the 280' to 300' to 320' range and I find my Eagles and JLSs going nearly the same distance(s) as my Valks and Orion LFs.

Or maybe this would be better (although not my situation). You are working with someone younger (or older for that matter). You started this person with a putter and then some type of mid. Their form is OK (not great). They are just now getting ready for driver. What would you hand them first?

You are not doing yourself any favors by throwing discs that are too fast or too heavy for your power level. (The one exeption might be when you are throwing into a wind. All of the discs you named except the TeeBird and Eagle would be good choices in lighter weights for newer, younger, or older players. There are some advantages to throwing more stable and heavier discs, but only if you have the strength and technique necessary to power them. Otherwise they are mainly a way to get tired, sore, and frustrated.

circle_2 · Nov 29 2006, 04:48 PM

Can you comment on why you thought the Eagle and Tee Bird would not be good choices for a semi-newbie?

Dave, how about a 1-25 scale for "Power Required" to further differentiate your disc-choice lineup?

Maybe a "Technique/Skill Required" scale would make more sense?

HFDS184 · Nov 29 2006, 08:04 PM

Quote:

I used to have an "operating range" for our discs, but the rest of the staff thought it was too hard to understand. We instead sometimes indicated that some discs were better for beginners or were only for "experienced" players or something like that. You are definitely right about the operating speed for discs. The flight descriptions we give are predicated on someone being able to throw 300 ft. But even the ability to throw 300 ft won't get some of the higher speed discs to work properly. People who are only able to throw 280 ft will find all of our drivers to be stable or overstable.

Dave, My mind started spinning (now I'm dizzy).
Where do you think a person (throwing in this 275' to 300' range) should draw the line. As in throwing a driver correctly vs throwing something that fades all the time.
Drivers that are more "straight" like Valks and Orion LS.
Drivers that have more right turn (RHBH) like Sidewinders.
Maybe a step down the ladder: Teebirds, Eagles, JLS
Maybe another step down the ladder: Gazelles, Leopards, Polaris LS.

My own distance is in the 280' to 300' to 320' range and I find my Eagles and JLSs going nearly the same distance(s) as my Valks and Orion LFs.

Or maybe this would be better (although not my situation). You are working with someone younger (or older for that matter). You started this person with a putter and then some type of mid. Their form is OK (not great). They are just now getting ready for driver. What would you hand them first?

You are not doing yourself any favors by throwing discs that are too fast or too heavy for your power level. (The one exeption might be when you are throwing into a wind. All of the discs you named except the TeeBird and Eagle would be good choices in lighter weights for newer, younger, or older players. There are some advantages to throwing more stable and heavier discs, but only if you have the strength and technique necessary to power them. Otherwise they are mainly a way to get tired, sore, and frustrated.

Dave, I've written an introduction to disc golf and guide to disc selection on my MySpace page (see my "signature below). In it, I recommend starting with a Stingray, Cobra or Shark and an Avair or Supersoft and I suggested a stability range. I also added though, that if you want to get better and develop a good long drive, overstable disc make good training discs. Early on, I picked up a Whippet. I loved throwing it and I used to practice with it trying to push it out further and further. It helped a lot.

davei · Nov 30 2006, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Can you comment on why you thought the Eagle and Tee Bird would not be good choices for a semi-newbie?

Dave, how about a 1-25 scale for "Power Required" to further differentiate your disc-choice lineup?

Maybe a "Technique/Skill Required" scale would make more sense?

The Eagle and the TeeBird have to be thrown like a Firebird as they won't flip up at all at those distances. Plus they both have too much low speed overstability. We used to have a skill reference for discs. I think in the longer versions of our disc descriptions, we say whether they are good for newer players. At any rate, I think it is a good idea to have a Operating Power or Operating Range notation.

superberry · Nov 30 2006, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Can you comment on why you thought the Eagle and Tee Bird would not be good choices for a semi-newbie?

Dave, how about a 1-25 scale for "Power Required" to further differentiate your disc-choice lineup?

Maybe a "Technique/Skill Required" scale would make more sense?

http://discgolf.gottagogottathrow.co...575fdb0c6cc63b

Gotta Go Gotta Throw has put this flight chart together. They define 5 power levels based on a typical length range for your drives. Each disc has turn and fade numbers, and then the power required to make the disc perform this way. It's a great chart, I go back to it over and over again when I am fitting new players to discs. One issue I see with discs is that people buy them based on the "name", and they just cannot throw a Wraith, but are offended to throw a Panther. In my mind it is very important to fit newcomers with the right discs so that they keep coming back.

Dave, if Innova added a fifth number to their rating that corrsponded to how far you typically need to be able to throw to make a disc perform close to its flight chart, you may be doing a great service to the sport, helping people enjoy their game more, and keep coming back. I do like that you define turn and fade, rather than just one number like discraft.

rangel · Nov 30 2006, 09:33 AM

Quote:

The Eagle and the TeeBird have to be thrown like a Firebird as they won't flip up at all at those distances. Plus they both have too much low speed overstability. We used to have a skill reference for discs. I think in the longer versions of our disc descriptions, we say whether they are good for newer players. At any rate, I think it is a good idea to have a Operating Power or Operating Range notation.

At first, your reply surprised me. But then I thought back to my first year (no form to speak of) and remembered the three most frustrating discs (of the several I tried) were the Roc, Eagle, and Firebird.
I wouldn't want to see your current numbering scheme changed, but I think you are right in the need for some type of range/power rating.
Thanks.

superberry · Nov 30 2006, 09:52 AM

Some people don't want to think of themselves as a "beginner" either. But they need to be honest about how far they CAN throw, and realize that the right disc will help them improve technique, accuracy, confidence, and thus start gaining some distance.

If you go with power requirement numbers, make sure it is blatantly obvious that this is how far you need to be able to throw to make the disc fly accordingly, NOT how far the disc will go (otherwise everyone will buy nothing but Wraiths).

luckyg71 · Nov 30 2006, 10:57 AM

I usually throw around 300, everynow and then booming one out to 350. My wraith and orc do go farther than anything else. Should I not be throwing them. I have been playing for about a year. I have only played in one tourney but I did come in second, beat out like 30 other people who have been playing longer. Would it be better if I started throwing different discs? I want to be able to throw 350 everytime.

gnduke · Nov 30 2006, 11:33 AM

The thing is that golf is all about consistency and accuracy. If you are throwing the discs that are well suited for your power and snap, then you may find that you consistently and controlably throw 325'. More distance will come without a lot more effort if you learn to throw the discs the way they were meant to be thrown and let the discs do the work. Increased distance is usually a result of better technique, not more power, and it's easier to learn the proper technique with discs that are suited for your power level.

superberry · Nov 30 2006, 01:14 PM

Maybe reference your "power requirement" to one weight disc too - like 170g. Add the disclaimer that heavier have less turn and therefor will exhibit more fade. And vice versa for lighter discs.

citysmasher · Nov 30 2006, 05:51 PM

I joined the PDGA just to talk to Dave on this forum.

Dave I want a bent arm throwing lesson....

...anyway...

Are the new Star BB Aviars and Rhynos coming in stiff Star plastic? Is there a color that would be the stiffest?

What mold is used for the Star BB Aviar? IS it the KC Pro or JK Aviar? Or are these the same?

davei · Nov 30 2006, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Are the new Star BB Aviars and Rhynos coming in stiff Star plastic? Is there a color that would be the stiffest?

What mold is used for the Star BB Aviar? IS it the KC Pro or JK Aviar? Or are these the same?

The Star BBs are in medium stiff plastic. I don't know of any color differences with regard to stiffness. The Rhynos come in medium and gummy.

The mold for the Star Aviar Driver is the same as the JK and KC Aviars.

Alex_wells · Nov 30 2006, 08:33 PM

Does anyone know when that new star max driver that's being advertised on the innovadiscs.com site is going to be available?

tokyo · Nov 30 2006, 08:38 PM

Yup check the site, it says Dec. 7th along with some other goodies!!

29600 · Nov 30 2006, 11:14 PM

I have a disc with a 1991 "Oaksociad" stamp. Anyone know anything about it? It's a Barracuda.
Thanks.
Post#1

Nov 30 2006, 11:50 PM

Hey Dave

I was just wondering when the new run of KC putters(12x) is set to come out.I was also wondering why these style (KC) of putters seem to me to be far more similiar disc to disc than anything else. Thanks

Dec 01 2006, 01:00 AM

Hey Dave

I was just wondering when the new run of KC putters(12x) is set to come out.I was also wondering why these style of putters seem to me to be far more similiar disc to disc than anything else. Thanks

davei · Dec 01 2006, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Original poster here: I was referring to the opaque (non-transluscent) plastic from a few years ago that looks and feels much like star plastic. Not quite as shiny though. Is that regular Millenium?

[/QUOTE]

Dave, I am curious too about early Millenium plastic. I am carrying a couple of opaque orange QJLS's that have tournament stamps from 2002. Could these be the CE type plastic or were they opaque for another reason? Thanks for you time!!

[/QUOTE]

If the opaque orange is not at all translucent, it might be the precursor to Sirius plastic.

davei · Dec 01 2006, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Hey Dave

I was just wondering when the new run of KC putters(12x) is set to come out.I was also wondering why these style of putters seem to me to be far more similiar disc to disc than anything else. Thanks

They have been stamped and have been moved to current stock, so they should be available.

gokayaksteven · Dec 01 2006, 08:07 PM

Hey Dave, would you know if there have been any gummy orion lfs run, Q or sirius?

jorr · Dec 01 2006, 08:21 PM

Dave,
I know earlier you had talked about retooling the Teerex...Has this pushed back the general release of DX Teerexes? Will the mold actually be changing for the retool as well?
Thanks!
J

davei · Dec 03 2006, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Hey Dave, would you know if there have been any gummy orion lfs run, Q or sirius?

No, I don't think so.

accidentalROLLER · Dec 03 2006, 04:27 PM

Dave,
1. Are the Champion Bags ever comming out?
2. Are there any plans to make STAR Cobras?
Thanks.

davei · Dec 03 2006, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Dave,
I know earlier you had talked about retooling the Teerex...Has this pushed back the general release of DX Teerexes? Will the mold actually be changing for the retool as well?
Thanks!
J

We believe we were successful with the retool, and are currently running the DX.

davei · Dec 03 2006, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Dave,
1. Are the Champion Bags ever comming out?
2. Are there any plans to make STAR Cobras?
Thanks.

The Champion bags should be available shortly. I am not sure exactly when. We do plan running Star Cobras. There has already been a test run. Mark at discgolfvalues might have some.

Drew32 · Dec 03 2006, 05:36 PM

Heya Dave

I want to thank you guys for the Monster X that you made a few years ago. I just won in my division yesterday at the D.V.Memorial One Disc Challenge here in Lexington using only one max weight Monster for both rounds. (putting upside down)
I shot my best score with it of 4 under the first round.

Any chance of a signature disc?
Just kidding.
But really once again I'll have to say Monster X's are by far the best mold there was.
Thanks again
Drew

ktownkid13 · Dec 03 2006, 05:43 PM

hey dave,
this might be a stupid question, but, are you still making the aviar in champion plastic?
thanks

Nov 29 2006, 03:46 PM	#7202
DSproAVIAR PDGA Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Skillet Posts: 2,506	Re: Muzzle velocity? leopard?

Nov 29 2006, 04:08 PM	#7203
veganray Community Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: The defense table Posts: 2,177	Re: Muzzle velocity? 150 Leopard

Nov 29 2006, 04:48 PM	#7205
circle_2 Community Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Lawrence, Kansas Posts: 2,687	Re: Muzzle velocity? Can you comment on why you thought the Eagle and Tee Bird would not be good choices for a semi-newbie? Dave, how about a 1-25 scale for "Power Required" to further differentiate your disc-choice lineup? Maybe a "Technique/Skill Required" scale would make more sense?

Nov 30 2006, 09:52 AM	#7210
superberry PDGA Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Marquette, MI Posts: 658	Re: Ask Dave D About Innova Here!!!!!!!!!! Some people don't want to think of themselves as a "beginner" either. But they need to be honest about how far they CAN throw, and realize that the right disc will help them improve technique, accuracy, confidence, and thus start gaining some distance. If you go with power requirement numbers, make sure it is blatantly obvious that this is how far you need to be able to throw to make the disc fly accordingly, NOT how far the disc will go (otherwise everyone will buy nothing but Wraiths). __________________ Watch it Bend - Disc Golf Course Design www.facebook.com/watchitbend UP Disc Golf Association - an IRS non-profit developing disc golf opportunities Disc da UP - local scene in Marquette - www.facebook.com/discdaup

Nov 30 2006, 10:57 AM	#7211
luckyg71 Community Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 86	Re: Ask Dave D About Innova Here!!!!!!!!!! I usually throw around 300, everynow and then booming one out to 350. My wraith and orc do go farther than anything else. Should I not be throwing them. I have been playing for about a year. I have only played in one tourney but I did come in second, beat out like 30 other people who have been playing longer. Would it be better if I started throwing different discs? I want to be able to throw 350 everytime.

Nov 30 2006, 11:33 AM	#7212
gnduke PDGA Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Plano, TX Posts: 7,181	Re: Ask Dave D About Innova Here!!!!!!!!!! The thing is that golf is all about consistency and accuracy. If you are throwing the discs that are well suited for your power and snap, then you may find that you consistently and controlably throw 325'. More distance will come without a lot more effort if you learn to throw the discs the way they were meant to be thrown and let the discs do the work. Increased distance is usually a result of better technique, not more power, and it's easier to learn the proper technique with discs that are suited for your power level.

Nov 30 2006, 01:14 PM	#7213
superberry PDGA Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Marquette, MI Posts: 658	Re: Ask Dave D About Innova Here!!!!!!!!!! Maybe reference your "power requirement" to one weight disc too - like 170g. Add the disclaimer that heavier have less turn and therefor will exhibit more fade. And vice versa for lighter discs. __________________ Watch it Bend - Disc Golf Course Design www.facebook.com/watchitbend UP Disc Golf Association - an IRS non-profit developing disc golf opportunities Disc da UP - local scene in Marquette - www.facebook.com/discdaup

Nov 30 2006, 05:51 PM	#7214
citysmasher Community Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Richardson, TX Posts: 479	Re: Ask Dave D About Innova Here!!!!!!!!!! I joined the PDGA just to talk to Dave on this forum. Dave I want a bent arm throwing lesson.... ...anyway... Are the new Star BB Aviars and Rhynos coming in stiff Star plastic? Is there a color that would be the stiffest? What mold is used for the Star BB Aviar? IS it the KC Pro or JK Aviar? Or are these the same?

Nov 30 2006, 08:33 PM	#7216
Alex_wells PDGA Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Burlington, NC Posts: 23	Re: Ask Dave D About Innova Here!!!!!!!!!! Does anyone know when that new star max driver that's being advertised on the innovadiscs.com site is going to be available?

Nov 30 2006, 08:38 PM	#7217
tokyo PDGA Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Norman, OK Posts: 1,086	Re: Ask Dave D About Innova Here!!!!!!!!!! Yup check the site, it says Dec. 7th along with some other goodies!! __________________ SOLSTICE DISC SPORTS http://www.eatsleepdisc.com/

Nov 30 2006, 11:14 PM	#7218
29600 Community Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 8	Re: Ask Dave D About Innova Here!!!!!!!!!! I have a disc with a 1991 "Oaksociad" stamp. Anyone know anything about it? It's a Barracuda. Thanks. Post#1

Nov 30 2006, 11:50 PM	#7219
Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Ask Dave D About Innova Here!!!!!!!!!! Hey Dave I was just wondering when the new run of KC putters(12x) is set to come out.I was also wondering why these style (KC) of putters seem to me to be far more similiar disc to disc than anything else. Thanks

Dec 01 2006, 01:00 AM	#7220
Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Ask Dave D About Innova Here!!!!!!!!!! Hey Dave I was just wondering when the new run of KC putters(12x) is set to come out.I was also wondering why these style of putters seem to me to be far more similiar disc to disc than anything else. Thanks

Dec 01 2006, 08:07 PM	#7223
gokayaksteven PDGA Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: telluride, co Posts: 1,489	Re: Ask Dave D About Innova Here!!!!!!!!!! Hey Dave, would you know if there have been any gummy orion lfs run, Q or sirius?

Dec 01 2006, 08:21 PM	#7224
jorr Membership Expired Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Illinois Posts: 59	Re: Ask Dave D About Innova Here!!!!!!!!!! Dave, I know earlier you had talked about retooling the Teerex...Has this pushed back the general release of DX Teerexes? Will the mold actually be changing for the retool as well? Thanks! J __________________ Get busy living or get busy dying...

Dec 03 2006, 04:27 PM	#7226
accidentalROLLER Membership Expired Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: DGADDMF Posts: 2,072	Re: Ask Dave D About Innova Here!!!!!!!!!! Dave, 1. Are the Champion Bags ever comming out? 2. Are there any plans to make STAR Cobras? Thanks. __________________ Boycott Sun King. Boycott Gateway.

Dec 03 2006, 05:36 PM	#7229
Drew32 PDGA Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Lexington, Ky Posts: 397	Re: Ask Dave D About Innova Here!!!!!!!!!! Heya Dave I want to thank you guys for the Monster X that you made a few years ago. I just won in my division yesterday at the D.V.Memorial One Disc Challenge here in Lexington using only one max weight Monster for both rounds. (putting upside down) I shot my best score with it of 4 under the first round. Any chance of a signature disc? Just kidding. But really once again I'll have to say Monster X's are by far the best mold there was. Thanks again Drew

Dec 03 2006, 05:43 PM	#7230
ktownkid13 PDGA Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: 865 Posts: 10	Re: Ask Dave D About Innova Here!!!!!!!!!! hey dave, this might be a stupid question, but, are you still making the aviar in champion plastic? thanks __________________ innovadiscs.com

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