Ask Dave Dunipace About Innova Discs

[tokyo]

What, Call it a Super ROC, I had a friend give me a Super Roc cause I couldnt get my Champ Gator to go that far and it worked, If it will fly like a Spyder which Like then I would still want a Gator.. Keep it stable, just add a little turn to it thats all!

[thetruthxl]

What, Call it a Super ROC, I had a friend give me a Super Roc cause I couldnt get my Champ Gator to go that far and it worked, If it will fly like a Spyder which Like then I would still want a Gator.. Keep it stable, just add a little turn to it thats all!

Why change a mold that everyone likes, Tokyo? There are plenty of molds that can do what the "gator L" would do for you. If you want a straight, stable flight with alot of low speed fade, try a heavy star or champion shark.

Dave, please don't tweek the star gator from the champion mold. It's the only consistanly overstable midrange Innova makes us high powered arms can't torque. Thanks!!!!!!!

[gdstour]

There was only one mold at that time for Rocs or Sharks.

Assuming there were sharks in 1991, would it be correct to say you were using the same top for both the shark and roc or was there just one disc?
The rim doesnt look exactly like a shark or Roc, but has a small groove in it and the top is definately not a shark.
I dont have a san marino laying around to compare it to.

I sold one on ebay and didnt want to misrepresent the disc.
I was convinced it was a San Marino roc until I saw the little groove line on the wing.
Now I'm wondering or trying to figure out the difference.
Here is a picture of the side view from the ebay listing:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...2948&rd=1&rd=1

Thanks for the help I know this was a long time ago.

[gokayaksteven]

i throw dx and champ gators. they complement each other nicely, as the dx molds up a little more domey and is less overstable than the champ, but still solid. why change the mold in star? the gator needs to maintain it's overstability, and people throwing them do not need to be confused about what they are getting. i, for one, do not understand this mold-changing stuff. it seems it would be better to get the mold correct before publicly releasing discs [tee-rex], and once a disc is established, don't mess with it. if it needs to have a different flight characteristic, and a change must be made, then call it something else. that being said, i definately am sympathetic to the challenges of consistantly molding plastic, and thanks for all your hard work for innova and for us. oh--also--have you ever considered having a different flight characteristics chart for the same mold in different plastics? there are numerous examples in innova's line-up of a disc that flys one way in one plastic, and another way in another plastic. the web-site catalog already shows the discs in different plastics, so tweaking the ratings would not be that much of a chore. just my 2 cents.

[mf100forever]

Hi Dave,
how many different Pirhanas are they, how many retoolings?
How do I see the different?
When, which years did you do those changes?

[thetruthxl]

Hi Dave!

I've been looking for a MAX and can't seem to find any around. Have I been missing the applicible sites or are they limited quanities and have to deal with ePay?
Thanks & have a great weekend!!!!

The Truth

[ChrisWoj]

Have the DX Wraiths been through multiple molds? I recieved one in August I only just started throwing and it has a pretty good lip on the very inside of the rim making it VERY overstable, I've never thrown a Wraith like it... and I like it, it is incredibly stable and I can't flip it hard for the life of me... its all but taken the teerex out of my bag completely.

[Edfredo]

Hey Dave I know you have a lot to answer but I have a question and probably someone else will answer for me. I saw an innova putter today and all it said on the hot stamp was putter across the top and had a basket under it that had a 1 on it. It said PDGA approved golf disc on it and the bottom was San Marino.

Thanks
Scott

[Erroneous]

discgolfvalues.com had them, looks like all they have left is X-outs

http://discgolfvalues.com/store/view...product=X-*Max

[crotts]

Hey Dave I know you have a lot to answer but I have a question and probably someone else will answer for me. I saw an innova putter today and all it said on the hot stamp was putter across the top and had a basket under it that had a 1 on it. It said PDGA approved golf disc on it and the bottom was San Marino.

Thanks
Scott

if under the basket on the hotstamp it has a disc being held with 2 hands it is an Aviar Putter from around '89 i believe. i think it was called the "hands" stamp

: ) :

[Edfredo]

That's it thanks!!

Scott

[davei]

Is there a reason why you are not making the BB in dx? I might have to spend $20 on e-bay to get a putter.

What would it take to get you to run some? I think it would be a great to have even if was for tourneys only, a small run even. Kind of like you did with the dx Teerex.

Thanks Dave!

We think it would be redundant given the KC, JK, and Star. Those are all BBs. What do you think DX will give you that the others won't? If you can give me a compelling reason, it might be goood to have it for a fundraiser.

[davei]

Agreed. The first thing that came into my mind was a Proto Champion Spider.

It may sound like a Spider, but it flies like a regular Gator. No flip at all.

[davei]

Assuming there were sharks in 1991, would it be correct to say you were using the same top for both the shark and roc or was there just one disc?
The rim doesnt look exactly like a shark or Roc, but has a small groove in it and the top is definately not a shark.
I dont have a san marino laying around to compare it to.

I sold one on ebay and didnt want to misrepresent the disc.
I was convinced it was a San Marino roc until I saw the little groove line on the wing.
Now I'm wondering or trying to figure out the difference.
Here is a picture of the side view from the ebay listing:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...2948&rd=1&rd=1

Thanks for the help I know this was a long time ago.

I can't tell from the picture. It would need to be a clear close up. From what I can see, it could be one of three discs: Roc, Shark, or Pro. The Pro was made for DGA for a couple of years starting at the first Cincinnatti Worlds. The Pro later became the MS for Millenium. If I had to guess what the disc in the picture was, I would guess Roc, but I really can't see it well enough.

[davei]

i throw dx and champ gators. they complement each other nicely, as the dx molds up a little more domey and is less overstable than the champ, but still solid. why change the mold in star? the gator needs to maintain it's overstability, and people throwing them do not need to be confused about what they are getting. i, for one, do not understand this mold-changing stuff. it seems it would be better to get the mold correct before publicly releasing discs [tee-rex], and once a disc is established, don't mess with it. if it needs to have a different flight characteristic, and a change must be made, then call it something else. that being said, i definately am sympathetic to the challenges of consistantly molding plastic, and thanks for all your hard work for innova and for us. oh--also--have you ever considered having a different flight characteristics chart for the same mold in different plastics? there are numerous examples in innova's line-up of a disc that flys one way in one plastic, and another way in another plastic. the web-site catalog already shows the discs in different plastics, so tweaking the ratings would not be that much of a chore. just my 2 cents.

We try to keep the rating charts as simple as possible. The ratings are not perfect, nor could they ever be. The variations in runs makes that impossible, plus, the variations between plastics and flight characteristics makes things even worse. The ratings are designed to compare one of our discs to another. By themselves, the ratings mean very little in any accurate sense. Comparitively, say rating one Star disc to another Star, they work pretty well. However, it might be helpful to further explain on the web site how they work and how the different plastics can change the ratings. The charts themselves are already pretty cluttered with info.

[davei]

Hi Dave,
how many different Pirhanas are they, how many retoolings?
How do I see the different?
When, which years did you do those changes?

There have been three versions of the Piranha. The first was the most overstable with a narrow and tall Thumtrac. The second had a narrow, and not as tall, Thumtrac. The third is the present version of the Thumtrac Birdie. We combined the two discs after the third tooling. The Birdie had three retoolings itself. I don't know any of the dates. Sorry.

[davei]

Hi Dave!

I've been looking for a MAX and can't seem to find any around. Have I been missing the applicible sites or are they limited quanities and have to deal with ePay?
Thanks & have a great weekend!!!!

The Truth

The Star Max is being run now. Up to now they have been available in limited quantities. They should be available widely in a few weeks.

[davei]

Have the DX Wraiths been through multiple molds? I recieved one in August I only just started throwing and it has a pretty good lip on the very inside of the rim making it VERY overstable, I've never thrown a Wraith like it... and I like it, it is incredibly stable and I can't flip it hard for the life of me... its all but taken the teerex out of my bag completely.

The Wraith, DX or otherwise hasn't been touched. Molding variations are such on the more extreme discs like the Wraith and TeeRex such that these discs will overlap at times. The Star plastic is a little more consistent than the DX, but there still are Star Wraiths that are more stable than Star TeeRexes. So far, I have been unable to fix the problem in Star. The problem may have been fixed in DX. We'll see.

[c_trotter]

We think it would be redundant given the KC, JK, and Star. Those are all BBs. What do you think DX will give you that the others won't? If you can give me a compelling reason, it might be goood to have it for a fundraiser.

I think there are a few benefits to putting with dx.

The main reason is feel. The dx is what I started with, and is the only plastic that feels right for "touch". KC too stiff, JK too floppy.

Flight- To me, the dx flies different than any other plastic. The KC is more ovestable, the JK (couple that Ive thrown) are less.

The way dx acts in the chains. JKs are too soft for me, and KC tends to spit out of the basket for me. Dx gets that kind of gritty texture that helps it grab chain. The slickness of KC doesnt work for me.

Another reason is the way the putters beat up. JK's seem to get that droop in the flight plate. KCs take forever to beat up. DX is perfect.

I know Ill think of better reasons, so Ill post again later. Its too early to efficiently plead my (our) case. It seems to me that it would be the most widely used putter you have. I know it definitely would be among pros.

It would just be nice to have another fairly firm putter, without having to putt exclusively white KC's.

Just thinking about the no/small bead aviars. I think they are the redundant ones. Star, soft dx, hard dx, glo, all the millennium versions, and champion.

i think if you made 1000 or even 2000 of them, I
could get rid of them all by myself. They would sell like hot cakes.

Thanks Dave for all the time you spend answering mostly meaningless questions.

[cmath]

I agree with Cary 100%. I have run out of BB Dx Aviars
and been trying everything else. Nothing else has been
even close. I would like to add to Cary's list that when
it's cold or wet out that the star and K.C. is way to slick
to throw. Like Cary, I would buy a bunch of them too.

[magilla]

It may sound like a Spider, but it flies like a regular Gator. No flip at all.

I still LOVE the "original" DX Gator...like the one I had the said only "DD" on top

Personally, I never liked the Champion Gator...
Did the mold change for Champion or is it just the difference in plastics??

Are DX Gators that are available now, the same as the old or has the mold changed as well??

It would be REALLY COOL if someone brought me a STAR gator or 2 to "TEST" out at the Team Tourney in San Diego...

[circle_2]

I agree with Cary 100%. I have run out of BB Dx Aviars
and been trying everything else. Nothing else has been
even close. I would like to add to Cary's list that when
it's cold or wet out that the star and K.C. is way to slick
to throw. Like Cary, I would buy a bunch of them too.

Dave, what plastic were the grid stamped BB's molded in? They were very hard, nearly as hard as KC's...but seemed to have a slightly different feel. We've always seemed to refer to them as DX BBs...but compared to a P&A there is a major difference. A plastic alloy?

[cschwab]

We think it would be redundant given the KC, JK, and Star. Those are all BBs. What do you think DX will give you that the others won't? If you can give me a compelling reason, it might be goood to have it for a fundraiser.

I would love to get some Dx Big Beads. No plastic has as good a feel for putting as dx. Star is too slick, Jk to floppy, and KC to hard. Dx is especially useful here in Michigan when playing in below freezing temps all winter. I like kc aviars but hesitate using them in the winter due them blending in with the snow. I know several people who putt with KCs but are hesitant to use them in the winter as I've seen several nice KCs cracked. Also no other plastic ages as nicely as DX does.

I'm sure if you ran DX big beads again they would sell. I like them but don't use them due to limited availability and I know other people who feel the same way.

Thanks

[davei]

I still LOVE the "original" DX Gator...like the one I had the said only "DD" on top

Personally, I never liked the Champion Gator...
Did the mold change for Champion or is it just the difference in plastics??

Are DX Gators that are available now, the same as the old or has the mold changed as well??

It would be REALLY COOL if someone brought me a STAR gator or 2 to "TEST" out at the Team Tourney in San Diego...

The mold was changed, but I'm not sure when. It might have been after the Champion Gator run. At any rate, the newer mold is more stable than the older. The DX Gators available now are probably the newer type. The nose on the newer type is more bull nosed than the older type. It was too easy for me to flip the older type. I like a no flip Gator.

[davei]

Dave, what plastic were the grid stamped BB's molded in? They were very hard, nearly as hard as KC's...but seemed to have a slightly different feel. We've always seemed to refer to them as DX BBs...but compared to a P&A there is a major difference. A plastic alloy?

The grid stamped were a variety of DX. The P&A has more elastomer which softens the plastic.

[davei]

There are two different BB molds. Driver BBs are overstable. Putter BB are stable. I assume you guys are talking about driver BBs, but if the discs you throw are very old, they may be the older putter big beads. Newer JK and KC aviars, as well as the Star BB are the driver mold.

[Edfredo]

I would like to add one thing as well to the "Why a BB DX question." The reason the big bead is made (driver mold) is to use as a driver for short holes or for a mid-range. What I use for this currently is the Wizard. I threw a Star Aviar the other day that belonged to a friend and the biggest difference (other than stability) was the GLIDE. The Star Aviar had a great glide, but too flippy. Now I will buy a Star BB, but everyone knows that although the mold itself will give me the glide I am talking about, when you couple that with the exceptional glide of the DX plastic you get a beautiful disc.

Just an off-shoot of this post, I am a little put off by the new DX plastic, it feels great and isn't as easy to beat in....but not as much glide

My 2 cents
Peace
Scott

[95impss]

I'm so glad this is being talked about.

Please bring back the DX BB Aviar.

I want a stack of them.

[gokayaksteven]

i love the new dx plastic, at least in the wraiths and spiders that i throw

[20460chase]

I got a BB DX from the '92 Worlds Biggest Weekend.

Would that be about the right timeframe for these, Dave?