Ask Dave Dunipace About Innova Discs

[davei]

Paul, sorry I missed your question. We have Champion Cheetahs, or their equivalent in KC Pro.

Dave, have you formally informed the PDGA of your perspective that:

A delineation needs to be made between a "Frisbee-like" disc and a discus like disc. Something needs to be written like: "the rim thickness can be no wider than 10% of the overall diameter."

You've had a pivotal relationship to our sport for a long time and one would hope your concerns will be given serious consideration. If you or anyone else wants to petition the PDGA for just such a rule, count me in.

[neonnoodle]

Just a tad conflict of interest involved here... and your case is less than compelling (particularly in light of your new wide rimmed discs).

Kind of like DGA saying only their targets are PDGA approved, or Fly 18 saying only their tee pads are PDGA approved.

Disc golf needs as many kicks in the A and as often as possible. The Epic is a direct kick in the A to all disc golf disc designers and manufactures who have been sitting in their cozy little protected worlds for years now.

Well, time is up! Get on the cutting edge or be left behind. The PDGA can not and should not save you from innovation by competitors. They have standards that you have been using for years. For them to now change them to negate this innovation is a little too obvious a favoritism.

[dannyreeves]

The Epic is NOT a compeditor. That disc is complete crap.

[gang4010]

There's a difference between a gimmick and an innovation. I think the market will ferret this out by itself. Dave's point is not out of self interest (at least I did not perceive it that way). Perhaps a question to the technical standards committee would shed some light on how or if additional extremes in design would affect how we define what "is" a disc.

[james_mccaine]

Why do think disc golf manufacturers need a kick in the A? It seems their innovations have rendered some older choice holes almost boring. How many more innovations does this sport really need.

It's possible that some radical new design could make once-great courses pedestrian. In my mind at least, it is vital that the PDGA write and enforce language that keeps the character of the sport intact.

Disclaimer: I've never seen or thrown this disc and it does sound like it is nothing to worry about. The sky is probably not falling but it never hurts to look up once in a while.

[underparmike]

nick lighten up. crawl back in your semi-pro hole or start a technical standards rant somewhere else.

dave does a rainbow-foil stamp denote a first-run disc on every kc,jk,ce or champion disc?

[davei]

Rob, yes I have formally and informally informed the PDGA. As of yet, no response.

[davei]

underparmikey, no, it's just a foil we use a lot.

[neonnoodle]

Mike, I need to lighten up? LOL. What does this have to do with semi-pro (besides I'm a True Amateur, not a semi-pro)?

I've seen quite a few people with the Epic in their bags and seen them throw it in competition. Whether or not it is innovation or not I suppose is a matter of opinion. Good or bad one, I think that it clearly is.

I don't see how, Dave's request for a limit to the percentage of rim to total surface is anything that would preserve the "character of the sport". The same could have been said for the bevelled edge after all. That was of far greater detriment to our courses than this is. No one is suddenly going to shoot 10 to 15 strokes better with the EDGE than they do with a Beast. But that certainly happened when the Sting Ray came out.

Dave has said that he is overly cautious concerning conflict of interest issues here on the PDGA Message Board. If this isn't a prime candidate for being cautious nothing is.

[girlie]

By Nick Kight on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 11:11 am:


Chase, I'm an Open Pro. Have been for 14 years.


Now, Nick... which is it? True Am, Semi-Pro, or Open Pro?

See you this weekend

Dave, would a rule that a disc or disc rim must be symmetrical suffice?

I think Daves concern is people that are not on this board,don't play tournaments, and just play rec golf recognize the name aerobie vs innova. Super flights (aerobie) sells to every retail store that sells sporting goods in the country and world. They are selling in 31 countries. So if I am Joe blow (who knows nothing about the game other than what my friend at school told me) and go into Sports Authority or Big 5 and see two brands of golf discs on the shelf one is Innova and one is Aerobie. I am going to buy the aerobie because I know how far the ring goes and I have never heard of innova.

Nick is totally right about the 1983 eagle. It was something completely new and different that is allegedly why it was able to get a patent. The Epic is the same thing that is why it got a patent.

I think Dave is upset because he didn't think of it and now if he wants to come up with something similar he will have to pay a licensing fee just like he made everyone else do.

This is just another stepping stone in the game that might work or it might not.

[james_mccaine]

The 10 to 15 stroke improvement created by the stringway is exaggeration, but I understand your point. In my mind, the beveled edge did not change the way discs flew, it mainly changed the distance they flew. That is my admittably rough idea of the "character of the sport".

What I'm talking about here is different than the beveled edge. When I hear of 400 foot thumbers (by more than a handful of folks), I start to wonder about the imaginable ways objects can be designed to fly and I start to think that it's not just distance that would change, but how the disc flys. That is my concern with the character of the sport. I'll admit, however, that this is merely my indefensible preference.

[disctance00]

James HATES Thumbers,Pancakes,Thomahawks,or overhand Two-finger shots. Concern...what concern do you have James? Please explain what concern this is?

A pastor friend of mine in Raleigh recently picked up an epic. With regular discs, his max BH distance is around 280', and his max tomahawk is around 250'. After a week of playing around with the epic, he can tomahawk it 300-350' with reasonable accuracy, so now he throws it exclusivley from the tee.

Interestingly, he can't throw it appreciably farther backhand than his other discs, so the question in my mind is whether the epic is a flying disc or a ballistic projectile. The fact that he can still only tomahawk his other discs 240-260' suggests that it's the latter.

[davei]

Rob, a symmetry rule was implicit, as far as I was concerned, but it might do if it were made explicit. Certainly in lieu of anything else.

[davei]

Felix, you bring up a good point. I could easily design a disc that is faster and worse than the Epic, (and stay within the literally read PDGA rules), but I don't think it should be in disc golf. That is the same reason I lobbied for weight restrictions when discs were going over 200 gms. It was changing the nature of the sport. It had nothing to do with economics then, and it has nothing to do with it now. The last bit was more addressed to Nick.

[exczar]

jsks,

IIRC, the Eagle came out in 1982. I think I picked mine up at the 82 Tennessee States. I still carry one in my bag.

re: weight limit.

I think that there should be some sort of consideration of rim "sharpness" and flexibility as a function of weight.

That is, if a disc has a broad rim, such as the old Wham-O Midnight Flyers, then the weight limit could be greater than 200g. Also, if the disc is more flexible, it can weigh more as well.

The issue is safety, so if the same force is spread out over a greater area, the effect is less.

The formula should be something like this:

Max weight = A*(Rim Radius) B(flexibility), with A and B as constants. The greater the rim radius or the flexibility, the more it can weigh.

Who let Nick in here?

[davei]

Bill, I suggested a similar thing to the PDGA back at the Canada Worlds and again at the Michigan Worlds. It fell on deaf ears.

[20460chase]

Dave--Sorry to get you involved in this,I didnt think it would be such a #$@%storm.Did my earlier post get bumped?Hey Clark-Follets ace fund is still intact!400$

[davei]

chase, thank you, but no apology necessary. I knew what I was getting into.

Disingenuous - dis·in·gen·u·ous ( P ) Pronunciation Key (dsn-jny-s)
adj.
Not straightforward or candid; insincere or calculating: “an ambitious, disingenuous, philistine, and hypocritical operator, who... exemplified... the most disagreeable traits of his time” (David Cannadine).

Chase, don't tell me these things! It only makes me want to call in sick on Mondays! Went to Galesburg Sunday afternoon and played the new course there. Very nice park with great concrete tee pads and a cool course. I think we need to meet PFC half way and rumble!

Dave, it seems to me that a basic definition of a disc is that it is symmetrical (and has a symmetrical rim). Maybe the PDGA could consider allowing imbalanced non-symmetrical discs as a separate class of event, but not in typical competitions.

It makes me think of aluminum bats -- but i guess even there the shape is still similar. Are corked bats a better analogy? If they made bats that let average hitters hit the ball farther, home run fences would have to be moved back and parks would have to be re-built.

What are some analogies with equipment in other sports which help illustrate the not-so-pretty direction imbalanced discs might lead?

Also, how long ago did you formally and informally share your concerns with the PDGA? Are you saying you haven't received any reply at all? It would be nice to know what their perspective on this is.

[20460chase]

Galesburg?--I had no idea.If you didnt have a job you wouldnt have to call in.PFC?They are still mad I took the first ace fund of the year.Thanks PFC!--BTW-Save some max weight Vikings for me,the clear plastic kind not the pearl type if you still got them, thank you sir.==Dave-either way I feel bad that this turned so far south,but I have been churning up alot here for the people that like to just argue over dumb stuff and overdo everything like Nick the master bater-or debater which ever-I just like to hear your opion.
see ya.

[rickb]

Dave
My question concerns the patent. With the expiration of the patent will Innova lose royalty rights?
Do you think there will be an influx of new companies wanting to get into the disc production business?
Do you think this will benefit or hurt the sport?

Will you autograph a couple of discs for my store at the USDGC? I've got a proto Eagle and Ontario ROC hanging on the wall with your signature and want to add a couple more to the collection.

[Pizza God]

I for one think the Epic is and should be forever Legal. For what reason would it not be.

Dave, what you need to make is a disc that had a very wide rim, even wider than the recent new discs (Beast, Valk, Firebird, Leapord, T-Bird) This way those of us who use the power grip can hold the disc more twards the center of the disc, therefore creating more spin. I think this is why the Valk is my favorite driver. (I have not thrown the Beast yet)

I think that is why people can throw the Epic so far.

As far as tuning discs. I have been doing that for years without even knowing it. (the article in DGWN showed me that) I have always bent my disc before I threw it. Mostly to make sure it was not too tacoed.

[davei]

Rob, recently I made my position known to the board in June, and then again at the Worlds. But the first time was at the Ontario Worlds.