OB Clarification Question

[DOC65]

Your playing a hole that is next to a lake or ocean and the water is very choppy. Your disc lands near the waters edge but is not surrounded by water. A wave comes in and the disc is surrounded by water. Then the wave receeds and the disc is at the waters edge but is not surrounded by water.

Is this disc considered safe or OB?

IN tournaments maybe the TD declares the waters edge to be OB? Such that the farthest point inland that the water reaches defines the OB line? This way if the disc gets surrounded by water then the disc is OB.

Of course this line would chage depending on high tide or low tide.

Or if possble paint an OB line along the edge they define as OB?

[Sharky]

Should be interesting to see what folks come up with, the obvious answer is to have a marked line that avoids all of the ambiguity, but in the real world that is not always practical, I would say the disc is inbounds benefit of the doubt to the player.....

[ck34]

The common ruling is that the disc is only OB if it is always surrounded by water in all wave positions. If the disc is not surrounded by water 100%, it's still IB. That's why marking OB with stakes/flags is usually better for lakes plus most bodies of water.

[DOC65]

Thanks for the help!!!

[gotcha]

On some courses, water may not be considered OB....

[ck34]

That's obviously just very wet sand...

[sandalman]

water is not OB unless the TD says it is. just like the 2MR.

[ck34]

Even when water is not OB, many of those body boundaries should be marked to indicate where casual relief is allowed. For example, creek beds with steep banks or marshes where the water edge transitions to soggy ground is unclear and can change daily based on rain and drying patterns.

[specialk]

http://iowadg.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3251

[ck34]

We had a downpour in Austin during lunch one year and many fairways had casual water a few inches deep for the afternoon round. The funny part was the hole along a creek bed and watching players who threw close to it on that hole gingerly walk along so they wouldn't fall in. Nonetheless a few weren't so fortunate...

[bazkitcase5]

a situation came up in league yesterday - a player's disc was in the water at the edge of a small lake, but not completely submerged

we were playing in a 3 person group - when the wave came in, it was clear to everybody the disc was surrounded by water, but when the wave went out, it looked to me like the disc was still "surrounded by water" but not submerged - player argued that it was only wet mud, not water - maybe I should have taken a picture, but again, to me, it looked like there was a clear string of water completely surrounding the disc, but were talking centimeters

the other player in the group, not being a tournament player, said he wasn't sure - it was only league, so no OB line was painted and no need to break out the rule book, because this situation was entirely based on interpetation of what the ground around the disc was, wet mud or water?

normally you would say if the group isn't sure, then the benefit of the doubt goes to the player, but unlike the player who was not sure, I was quite sure that the disc was surrounded by water, and well, the player whose disc it was obviously was arguing that it wasn't

what do you do?

[Mark_Stephens]

Well, I am going on the assumption that you know that the rule is surrounded by out of bounds and in this example that is the water hazard. There is nothing about being submerged as you can be out of bounds floating in the middle of the pond.

Since you could not really come to a consensus, 1 for OB, 1 for not OB, and 1 undecided I would say that it should be ruled in bounds.

It is just league. Have fun!

[bazkitcase5]

yes I know it doesn't have to be submerged, just wanted to clarify how "close" it was, to be able to touch ground, yet not be submerged at the same time

[JerryChesterson]

I'd approach this as such ...
As a group determine where exactly the OB line is. This line extends vertically indefinately regardless of weather the dics is submerged or not and doesn't move in and out with the wave. If the disc is completely surrounded (behind the line) it is OB. If not, it is safe. If in doubt, play it both ways and then take it to the TD for a ruling. I would probably be played the same weather it was OB or not. 1 meter in bounds, and play ... only question is if it is a penalty stroke or not.

[veganray]

That brings up an interesting question. If the decision is to "play it both ways and then take it to the TD for a ruling", does the player throw two shots from the new lie (one for each potential ruling) & play them both out, or just one, since the lie would be the same anyway? If the former, which does he throw first?

[krupicka]

If there is a disagreement as to where the OB line is, then 1m in from the OB should be different between the two shots.

[JerryChesterson]

That brings up an interesting question. If the decision is to "play it both ways and then take it to the TD for a ruling", does the player throw two shots from the new lie (one for each potential ruling) & play them both out, or just one, since the lie would be the same anyway? If the former, which does he throw first?

You just made my head spin

At first I thought what is the difference, they are both from the same spot, but reading the rule I think you'd have to play it twice even though it is the same lie. Chuck ... can we get a messageboard ruling over here?

[cgkdisc]

You play provisionals from where each of the alternate rulings would apply. In some cases the locations could be far apart. For example, someone might retee for one provisional line and play the other provisional line from near where the tee shot went OB if the group didn't remember whether or not the TD specified a required retee on that hole if the tee shot went OB.

[veganray]

Which one first, particularly in the case where the lies are identical or very close?

[cgkdisc]

Chicken.

[krupicka]

Egg.

[cgkdisc]

Six of one...

[stack]

1/2 dozen of the other

[JerryChesterson]

Six of one...

What if it is an identical lie, 25 feet away from the basket, misses the first, makes the second or vice versa.

[cgkdisc]

Both lines of play need to be holed out if a provisional will be played. No order is specified but it would make sense to do them in the order that will likely take the least amount of time. In fact, there's no reason they can't be played out together if the two starting lies are near each other as long as you keep track of the score for each sequence.

[JerryChesterson]

Thanks!

[veganray]

I strongly disagree with the 6/half-dozen argument. (You should have known I had a problematic scenario in mind when I asked the seemingly innocuous question.) Consider the following:
1) Holly Hyzer throws a shot that is close to the line but relatively obviously OB.
2) Holly insists that it is IB (knowing that it is not) & successfully lobbies for the "throw twice & let the TD sort it out" resolution. Assume that the lie is identical between the two throws.
3) Holly then sneakily insists on throwing the IB version of the throw first.
4) She does so, then throws the OB version, knowing full well that it is the one that will be ruled valid.
5) Holly has weaseled herself into a free practice throw at the very shot that will ultimately be counted on her scorecard.

Therefore, the order of operations could, indeed, be quite important. Maybe the rulebook should address the issue.

[cgkdisc]

In this example, no provisional sequence is required because the lie is identical. The only point in question is whether there's a 1-throw penalty.

[baldguy]

I agree with chuck's assessment of the situation, but not with his insistence on throwing chicken in Vegan Ray's face. That's just cruel... the dude doesn't eat meat (nor eggs for that matter). Really Chuck... think before you fling poultry at your fellow golfers. You never know who might conscientiously object to your choice of weapon-food.

[accidentalROLLER]

In this example, no provisional sequence is required because the lie is identical. The only point in question is whether there's a 1-throw penalty.

Could you show me where that is in the rulebook? I didn't see any reference to identical lies. I only saw this:

C.Provisional Throws. Provisional throws are extra throws that are not added to a player’s score if they are not ultimately used in completion of the hole. The use of provisional throws is encouraged in all situations where there is a question regarding a thrower’s lie and a provisional would speed play or when the thrower questions the group’s or official’s ruling. The unused throws shall not be added to the thrower’s score nor treated as practice throws if the player announces that such additional throws are made as provisional throws prior to taking them. Provisional throws are appropriate in the following circumstances: (1) To save time: A player may declare a provisional throw any time (a) the status of a disc cannot immediately be determined, and (b) the majority of the group agrees that playing a provisional throw may save time, and (c) the original throw may be out of bounds, lost, or have missed a mandatory. When proceeding under this type of provisional the thrower shall complete the hole from whichever of the two throws is deemed by the group or an official as the appropriate lie according to the rules. (2) To appeal the group’s or an official’s ruling: A set of provisional throws may be taken to complete a hole pursuant to 803.01 D (3) when the player disagrees with the majority group decision and an official is not readily available, or if the player wishes to appeal the decision of an official. The scores from both sets of throws shall be recorded. The proper ruling and score are then determined by the director at the end of the round.

If a provisional is called, at least 2 sets of throws must be made.