Island Greens

[denny1210]

or we could design island greens with some fat on them instead of the do-or-die variety. make the green itself such that a decent "safe" shot played for the fat of the green will make it almost all the time and leave a putt of, say, 60-80ft. as players attempt to get closer to the basket, the odds of landing safely decrease. at the extreme, if a player attempted to leave a drop-in, the odds of landing safely might fall to 30-40%.

the island green in golf that started it all, at tpc-sawgrass, is actually a pretty large green for a wedge shot. if the field all played for dead center of the green, they'd land safely over 90% of the time. as they attempt to get closer to the pin, that percentage drops

[Karl]

Chuck,

Interesting concept but one which "muddies the waters" (with complexities, etc.). The island greens that I've seen (so far) in disc golf have all been "circular" or "oval" with the basket at the center. To have a true island hole have "lots of 3's" (but rewards a great shot with a 2 and punishes a bad shot", I believe all you have to do is make the green in the shape of a triangle (or fat teardrop) and place the basket "in the corner". This way, if you want to deuce, you "go for it" (miss and retee). If you want to "play safe", throw into the fat section. This then poses 2 scenarios...either then lay up and drop in for a 3 or THEN "go for" it (the 2), knowing if you "blow by" you'll have an easy 4. The key here is to make the island big enough - especially the fat part of the teardrop. This concept / shape also has the "benefit" of dictating (or sort of) the shape shot into the green; i.e., if you want it RHBH-friendly, you make the "point" at 4:30 and widen it toward 10:30 (allowing all RHBH's an ace run...the high over the basket'ers have a long putt coming back, the low over the basket'ers have a deuce try), etc.

Karl

[ck34]

Karl, I don't disagree with the different shaped green concept. Placing the basket in the center of a circle just isn't difficult enough for putting. Shifting the pin forward, raising it and trying different green shapes all help produce a better scoring pattern. If you make the landing area of the green too large, the hole doesn't play much different from an easy par 3 which loses the intended effect of an island green. It just requires properly blending the elements available in disc golf for us to get a similar effect that island greens have in ball golf.

[davei]

or we could design island greens with some fat on them instead of the do-or-die variety. make the green itself such that a decent "safe" shot played for the fat of the green will make it almost all the time and leave a putt of, say, 60-80ft. as players attempt to get closer to the basket, the odds of landing safely decrease. at the extreme, if a player attempted to leave a drop-in, the odds of landing safely might fall to 30-40%.

the island green in golf that started it all, at tpc-sawgrass, is actually a pretty large green for a wedge shot. if the field all played for dead center of the green, they'd land safely over 90% of the time. as they attempt to get closer to the pin, that percentage drops

I think Denny and Karl hit the nail out of the park. Do or die island greens are not good design, in my opinion. Well designed island greens should have a relatively easy chance for par, if you are an expert. This especially comes into play when the wind is different at different times of the day. A group with still wind, not only has an easier time of getting on the green, but also has an easier time of hitting the putt, once on. In wind, a do or die green becomes unfair in comparison. If there were a landing area that was fatter to land, but much more difficult to putt, the windy group would only lose one stroke on average instead of 2, 3, or more, as I have seen with do or die island holes. Losing one or so strokes, because of wind is normal.

[james_mccaine]

I think there is certainly a place for do or die greens, as long as they are reasonably fair, and a reasonably fair drop zone prevents tin cupping it. There is something special about the anticipation and the excitement of pulling it off.

They are also great for spectating. I watched a lot of ams shoot a relatively easy island-type shot this weekend. It was fun as a spectator watching the excitement they had when the shot was safe.

Additionally, a difficult island hole seems better on a course where there are lots of other punishing OB holes; then the do or die nature is dampened by many other similar holes.

[Jeff_LaG]

Denny, Karl, And Dave are confirming the point that island greens need to achieve the right combination of distance to the polehole, size of the green, and distance from the drop zone to the polehole.

Right now it seems like island green designers are stuck on the concept of a circle 10m in radius.

[denny1210]

Right now it seems like island green designers are stuck on the concept of a circle 10m in radius.

One of several ways in which the popular conception that the 10m line defines a "putt" in disc golf is holding us back, design-wise.

10 meters = 5 feet in ball golf. A disc golf "island green" of radius 10 meters is the equivalent of a ball golf island green shaped like a giant catcher's mitt with a flat circle of 5 ft. radius in the middle containing the only hole location.

[Karl]

Denny,

I kind of agree with your disc golf = ball golf ratio of 10m = 5ft (actually I'm sticking my neck out and saying 27ft = 5.48ft), but the island "green" in bg is a "2-putt green" not a 1-putter. Therefore, the ratio would have to be dg:bg equaling ~110ft:~80ft...and that's not practical (certainly not much of a challenge for the dg'er).

Karl

Ps: I'm "going" on the basis that a 1000-rated dg'er makes a 27ft'er half the time (remember, this is ALL conditions, 1 putt per hole, and not grooving 10 putts at a time), just as a PGA touring pro (per 2005 stats) makes a 5.48ft'er half the time. Conversely, a PGA pro uses up ~1.8 putts per green and I'm guessing that a 1000-rated dg'er comes home from 110ft in a little under 2 per time.

[denny1210]

but the island "green" in bg is a "2-putt green" not a 1-putter.

that's my point exactly. i don't know the exact putt percentage of 27 footers made by 1000 rated players. i'd guess it's a bit better than your 50% guess, but not 80%. if you take all the putts from within the haybales on winthrop #17, though, the 1000 rated player would probably average 1.1ish

[ck34]

Gold level players sank 87% of their putts landing within a 10m circle based on Winthrop and Highbridge data. Since one quarter of the tee shots would be expected to land within 5m (since it's 1/4 of the area), let's assume they make 100% of those. That means they sink ~82% of the 3/4 of tee shots that land between 5m and 10m. It makes me think that the 50% mark for 1000-rated average putting might be outside 10m.

[sandalman]

Right now it seems like island green designers are stuck on the concept of a circle 10m in radius.

that completely depends on which designers you hang with. not all of us are so staid. this island isnt even on a par 3.

[gnduke]

Not all of us have bulldozers at our disposal .....

[sandalman]

are they using shovels instead?

hey Karl - your 110' number is remarkably similar to the 120' number used by advocates of Close Range Par (i think thats the correct moniker). this approach solves most every known problem that disc golf has related to par and greens.

[Jeff_LaG]

I like that this island green isn't the standard 10m radius circle, but the polehole seems to be at widest and safest portion of the green with even a backstop to catch shots. The perfect location would be to have the polehole almost dead center in the picture which would put it closer to the peninsula and make for some dramatic risk/reward. Golfers would then be fored to choose whether to risk landing near the polehole, or throwing to safer landing zone, kind of where the polehole is now.

[denny1210]

The perfect location would be to have the polehole almost dead center in the picture which would put it closer to the peninsula

That'd be a good one or on the raised mound to the right of the basket with the drop-off to water behind. (depends on how fish-able to water is, i'm not really a fan of bringing the possibility of lost putter into play.)

Pat, please remind us, what are the dimensions of that island.

[ck34]

This isn't an island green in the same way we've been discussing since it's at the end of a par 4/5? hole where the fairway is in play all the way up to the water crossing. The challenge has more to do with placing your shots prior to the water and knowing when your shot to cross the water is in range.

[sandalman]

i dont have the exact dimensions handy. the approach is from the left of the pic. (the foot bridge is perpindicular to the fairway.) if you are at waters edge in front of the pin, its no more than 30' left-to-right you have 40-50 feet.

the back is sloped up like that for two reasons. first, it hides the basket from the road (a design requirement of the owner). second, it provides a stop for discs that come in high or hot. a flat green would result in skips into the water. the burm actually makes things easier cuz it prevents skip-aways that would cost a stroke. there is far more latitude left-right, but you really need to get the distance correct.

i think i'm going out in the next coupla weeks... i'll get specific measurements and some new pics... it is starting to look nice and green there.

[ck34]

Is the water at your expected design height in the photo or will it vary much seasonally?

[sandalman]

a pumping system can raise and lower the water height at will. the pic shows it a few inches below "full".

jeff, the pic doesnt show it well, but its a kidney shape. the green is no deeper in the middle than on the left or right. from the approach it is 3-4 times wider than it is deep.

[Jeff_LaG]

a pumping system can raise and lower the water height at will. the pic shows it a few inches below "full".

jeff, the pic doesnt show it well, but its a kidney shape. the green is no deeper in the middle than on the left or right. from the approach it is 3-4 times wider than it is deep.

But if you move the polehole closer to the front of the green, you bring the water into play more and make for the dramatic risk/reward choice. If the polehole is at the front, I can either chose to risk the water but put my shot close for the tap-in, or safely land back where the current polehole is now, but have a much longer putt to hole out. Or even lay-up from the back of the green if I must.

Seems to me that the polehole is at the center of the green and the absolute easiest spot on the island to hit, which kind of takes all the excitement out of it.

[tbender]

But if you move the polehole closer to the front of the green, you bring the water into play more and make for the dramatic risk/reward choice. If the polehole is at the front, I can either chose to risk the water but put my shot close for the tap-in, or safely land back where the current polehole is now, but have a much longer putt to hole out. Or even lay-up from the back of the green if I must.

Seems to me that the polehole is at the center of the green and the absolute easiest spot on the island to hit, which kind of takes all the excitement out of it.

What you forget Jeff, is that this hole doesn't exist. The whole course is really a stage set in Hollywood.

[sandalman]

pictures can be decieving on this shot you are begging to get the D correct. if you are more than 200' the pucker factor is significant. i'm not opposed to moving the basket forward (or left or right for that matter). there is plenty of excitement on this hole no matter where the pin is. perhaps a wee bit too much even.

[sandalman]

ooops, i just looked at that pic again... that water is a good foot or so low. when full it covers most of the rock retaining wall in front, and the slopes on the side... just under the footbridge.

[Jeff_LaG]

pictures can be decieving on this shot you are begging to get the D correct. if you are more than 200' the pucker factor is significant. i'm not opposed to moving the basket forward (or left or right for that matter). there is plenty of excitement on this hole no matter where the pin is. perhaps a wee bit too much even.

So basically, it sounds like the challenge to begin with is just hitting the island in the first place? Wow.

[my_hero]

So basically, it sounds like the challenge to begin with is just hitting the island in the first place? Wow.

No not really. Having played the hole i can say that if you BOOOOOM a drive, BOOOOM another drive, and all goes perfect on your 1st and 2nd shot then you are faced with a 400-450' downhill shot onto the island. Most people would lay up, but a few may go for it.

The 2 times i have played it, i messed up either my 1st or 2nd shot, and by the time you are shooting for the island on your 4th shot, it's a much more managable 150-250' shot. Then a one putt for a 5 on the hole.

Two tries for me, 2 5's for me. VERY HAPPY with that.

Imaginary 5's on an imaginary hole ...

Lay off the crack pipe!

[my_hero]

Yep. That picture looks photoshopped to me. Just tell all of my discs laying at the bottom of the LAKE ON LEFT holes that the course is imaginary.

[sandalman]

The 2 times i have played it, i messed up either my 1st or 2nd shot

does the course punish errant shots?

as far as LAKE ON LEFT, now i know its imaginary. only 1 and 17 are really that way. (i know i know, you're gonna ask about 2 and 18... but on those the lake on left/behind/far-right of basket is far more of a pucker.)

[my_hero]

Does it punish errant shots? There's no need for me to even comment on that inane question.

Yes there is a pucker factor on the island, but it's not too hard to hit the center of it from 150-200'. The real pucker hole for me is the one in your avatar. My best of 2 tries is a TRIPLE bogey! The tee shot makes me pucker, the narrow landing zone makes me pucker, the "what is supposed to be your 2nd shot" makes me pucker (although it's always been my 3rd shot b/c of a wet disc) It's (your avatar hole) a par 4 right? Which should be 3'd if you throw 2 above average shots.

The thing i've noticed with the imaginary course is you have to link 2, 3, and sometimes even 4 ABOVE AVERAGE to PERFECT shots CONSECUTIVELY to score well.

sounds like fun... A course that rewards good golf shots ... Now I know for sure this place does not exist.
Nobody designs a course like that [img]/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]