Ask Chuck Kennedy

[DSproAVIAR]

Originally Posted by JenniferB

If the disc came to rest supported by the inner wall of the basket, then it must have at least partially entered the basket. The issue then is whether it partially entered from above or below the rim. But I think some folks are too invested in this whole argument now to recognize that the disc must have at least partially entered the basket in order to be in contact with the inner wall.

Jennifer,

Interesting point! I was thinking that a disc could only either enter or not enter the basket.

[thediscinmusician]

Hey Chuck...quick question. Could you tell me if a couple tournaments have been turned in for the ratings update next week. I was looking at the Raindrop Festival on 10.8 the Rocket City Amateur Open on 10.15 and then the 37th Alabama Flying Disc Championship on 11.5. It would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[cgkdisc]

You can check yourself. If it says "Official" results on their scores page and you don't see ratings, then they're being processed. If it says Unofficial Results or you don't see any results, their reports haven't been received by the PDGA yet.

[solchild]

Originally Posted by cgkdisc

There will be unofficial ratings calculated for fun but they will not be used for players' official ratings. There will be a story posted on the Home page by next week with what problems we found and why no official ratings.

Chuck,

Could you elaborate a bit on why the ratings from the USDGC will not be used? Will last year's USDGC results also be disallowed?

Some thoughts I have been having about this event not being rated...

It seems to me the PDGA should be consistent no matter what the field strength. If 'throw and distance' is causing ratings inflation or deflation, skew, or a statistical anomaly that is undesirable an executive decision needs to be made BEFORE the event and the fact that the tourney will not be rated, communicated to players. As a competitor in the event, part of the value I get from competing in a tourney is to see the results of progression as a disc golfer. I am very disappointed that 6 hours of mental grinding, perhaps one of the best tourneys I have played, will be for 'fun'. While I did, 'have fun', I feel in some way by this event not being officially rated my experience has been marginalized. Perhaps this is just a philosophical dilemma with which I need to deal, but something does feels a bit cheapened about the experience.

Every player had a gross score. That, and every player's rating, is all one needs to rate a tourney. The handicaps are an afterthought. I am not sure I understand the hesitancy to count these scores. Again, the scores were rated last year.

Thanks again, Chuck, for all the hard work you put into developing our sport, and I eagerly look forward to hearing your response.

[cgkdisc]

A story will be posted in the next day or two explaining why official ratings could not be done this year. The performance format and much lower rated propagator field provided the key negative tipping points in combination with Throw & Distance which also skewed results last year but not enough to exclude official ratings.

[JenniferB]

Is there any way for the PDGA to do Team Events like at Texas Teams? We had 468 players this weekend at $100 each for trophy only, and it was amazing. Pools on day 1. Sweet 16 on day 2. I can only imagine how awesome it would be for states to have team events like this and then have a national teams event where the winning teams play off, but there would have to be a standardized format for that to take place.

[cgkdisc]

Typically events like this are spearheaded by someone or company with big dreams like Steve Dodge with his Players Cup Match Play tourney and the Collegiate Championships initiated and cultivated by Pete May. The PDGA can provide support but at the moment wouldn't have the staff to initiate it.

[ERicJ]

Hey Chuck, in regards to the $10 non-PDGA-member fee for sanctioned events... does it violate any PDGA policy if you could get an event sponsor to cover that fee for an event?

[cgkdisc]

No problem. I'm guessing many people other than players have paid their entry fees before including the $10. I've seen clubs cover all of the $10 nonmember fees before, for example, to encourage local participation in an area with low PDGA membership.

[Jeff_LaG]

Chuck, according to the Ratings Challenges article recently posted on the website, the maximum SSA which is acceptable for the rating system is now apparently 71.

The article does a very good job of explaining why there is a minimum SSA cutoff of 41.4 to be included in the ratings system. The problem is that a course can be so short that the scores may not differentiate very well between expert and average players. Intuitively, this always made sense as average players often shoot very well on very short courses. A perfect example is that a hack like me once shot a 44, set the course record, and beat a lot of talented local competition on a short & very wooded course. Since then I've never even come close to -10 on any other course anywhere.

What is the underlying theory and principle behind the maximum cutoff, however? A high SSA course obviously separates expert and average players well, so that can't be the issue. And surely when the rating system was first developed, wasn't data from high SSA courses tested to validate the rating system? What new issue has come up since then to now invalidate data in the range?

[cgkdisc]

We don't have any standard singles sanctioned event data on courses with SSAs over 71 or so. So we can't confirm how well the system works above 71. No reason to believe it doesn't work. There's just no data. The last 2 USDGC events included other format elements so those scores can't be used as part of any validation data for just standard singles on higher SSA courses.

[Jeff_LaG]

Chuck, thanks for the speedy reply. I'm guess I'm still at a loss however that since there's no reason to believe that standard singles sanctioned event data on courses with SSAs over 71 won't work in our ratings system, why was a decision made on this maximum cutoff? Who decided to make that cutoff, and why was it (semingly arbitrarily) set at 71?

[cgkdisc]

There is no cutoff at SSA 71, just no usable data above that level at this point.

I believe the Delaware Disc Golf Challenge in 2010 had the highest average SSA of any standard singles event in history right at 71 SSA with the first two rounds at Iron Hill and the last two at Carousel. There was no problem with the ratings: http://www.pdga.com/tournament_results/15392

[thediscinmusician]

Hey chuck, is there anything that can be done in the case that a td has not turned in tournament scores for an official rating. I got a couple tournaments at least 2 months old that are yet to be turned in yet for official ratings. I hate to have tournaments that old and them not getting figured in on ratings updates.

[cgkdisc]

The PDGA office is working hard to get all of the reports in the house ASAP. We've only lost one event in the past 7 years that didn't get rated by yearend.

[thediscinmusician]

Its not on yalls end it's on the td I believe. They are yet to turn in the report for official ratings. Unless they have been turned in and the pdga is yet to figure them. But as of right now on the tourney results it still shows unofficial. Anyway to press the td to turn in his report by next Tuesday?

[cgkdisc]

I'm not the presser. Like I said, the PDGA office is on it to get all reports submitted ASAP.

[Jeff_LaG]

Originally Posted by cgkdisc

There is no cutoff at SSA 71, just no usable data above that level at this point.

The ratings system has proven to be pretty flexible considering the variety of course configurations and formats it's been able to handle over the years. It can handle 13 to 30 hole courses over a 30-shot SSA range from 41 to 71 for 18 holes.

Ok, Chuck but just realize that based on the above statement and especially the bolded & underlined part, it appeared to me that a maximum had been set. Sorry for the poor assumption on what exactly "it can handle" entails, but consider that if I had that misunderstanding, then perhaps others may have as well.

[cgkdisc]

I can see the misunderstanding but I was just stating what we've handled for sure in terms of SSA range. Having played in that Delaware Challenge, I'm hoping no one is pondering a course with an SSA more than 71, especially for a multi-round event even if we can handle the ratings.

[ishkatbible]

just finished an event, last round today december 4th. provided the report is turned in in time, will the same event from last year (december 4th and 5th) go away?

[cgkdisc]

No. If an event is held on the same weekend the following year, it will still be within 12 months (365/366 days) assuming it's your most recent event in your current set of round ratings.

[ishkatbible]

thanks

[bdfield]

since the PDGA has removed the course SSA page, and also the course SSA doesn't appear on tournament result pages anymore, how can the SSA for a course be obtained? I ran a C tier on my home course (it's first pdga event since being installed 8 or 9 years ago) and was wanting to establish a SSA but can't get the information.

[cgkdisc]

Look at your C-tier results and figure out the SSA by looking for the score nearest 1000 rating. If a 49 is 1005 and 50 is 995, then the SSA is 49.5. If you didn't have anyone shooting a round rating near or over 1000, then you have a little more math to do. If a 53 is 965 and a 56 is 935, then there are 10 points per throw (30 pts/3 throws). 35 points added to 965 is 3.5 throws less than the 53 so you end up with the same SSA of 49.5. This works for any tournament results to determine SSA for a round.

[eupher61]

Chuck, what's planned for the Global Tournament? This year again, or alternating years with the "real" USDGC, or what?

steve

[cgkdisc]

Plans still being made for 2012 global. At least one event and possibly attempting a global "league" month. No more details at this point other than it won't be in August. Likely timing being discussed is a weekend within 2 weeks either side of Halloween.

[bdfield]

Originally Posted by cgkdisc

Look at your C-tier results and figure out the SSA by looking for the score nearest 1000 rating. If a 49 is 1005 and 50 is 995, then the SSA is 49.5. If you didn't have anyone shooting a round rating near or over 1000, then you have a little more math to do. If a 53 is 965 and a 56 is 935, then there are 10 points per throw (30 pts/3 throws). 35 points added to 965 is 3.5 throws less than the 53 so you end up with the same SSA of 49.5. This works for any tournament results to determine SSA for a round.

Thanks for your quick response, it's greatly appreciated.

[bdfield]

I read in a forum (another site) about PDGA leagues and league scores/round ratings being used for player ratings. can you enlighten me? is this something new, already in use or in an experimental stage?

[cgkdisc]

A story about the new league program will be posted on the PDGA site soon and will also be in the DiscGolfer mag that is or will soon be in the mail. Leagues can start just after Daylight Saving time change in March. Rated rounds will be generated and be equally weighted in your rating with your tournament rounds.

[eupher61]

Originally Posted by cgkdisc

Plans still being made for 2012 global. At least one event and possibly attempting a global "league" month. No more details at this point other than it won't be in August. Likely timing being discussed is a weekend within 2 weeks either side of Halloween.

Thanks, Chuck. I'm not sure what that will mean for St Louis, but we'll work on it.

steve