Ask Chuck Kennedy

[sammyshaheen]

Chuck
How about this scenario.

The course TD calls all water on the course casual.
We had serious rain and some of the depressions in
the land filled with mini ponds. They are usually not
there and that is the reason for all water being casual.

What happens when your disc goes into this casual pond
but you can't find exactly where the disc is? Is this considered
a lost disc or since the water is casual do you play the disc
where the group last saw it? People were playing this a variety
of ways from the info I gathered.

Thanks

[cgkdisc]

Lies in casual water can be played and are inbounds. Think of the sprouting casual water mini ponds as if grass in selected areas all of sudden grew 18 inches over lunch break making it hard to find discs in the high grass. In theory, the group has to wander around in the casual water for the 3 minutes looking for the disc (although everyone may be soaked by then anyway?) Unless the disc can be found in the casual water, the lost disc rule applies.

Now, there's a way around this if the savvy TD identifies "no penalty" drop zones for landing in specific, probably larger casual water areas. In that case, all that is necessary is for the group to agree that a disc landed somewhere in that casual pond versus being lost on dry land. The player goes to the drop zone with no penalty and the disc does not need to be found.

[ThePatrick]

Chuck... another ratings question in regards to propagators/flaws in the system. Am women played the first round of this years Charlotte Am Champs on a pretty short course. The FW1 division shot really well and most were under or right at par.
The question comes from seem to be really low ratings for what was shot on the course. The lowest score for that round only got an 875 rating. I know that they may not be official, so they could change. Any one shooting 7 down doesn't deserve an 875 rated round, regardless of what course it is (especially at an A-tier in an Advanced division). To get a 1000-rated round they would have to shoot a 15 down. I guess that would be possible, but it just seems that the ratings should be adjusted a little higher. Any insight would be appreciated.

[cgkdisc]

Nothing seems out of line in looking at the course assignments. It says the Adv, & Int Women plus Rec men & Jrs played Elon in R1. The unofficial round ratings are scattered around the average of the props. The big problem I see is this round may be thrown out because the SSA is lower than our soft 41.4 limit. The SSA looks like it's less than 40 so no official ratings may be produced for this round. Statistically, when courses get too easy, the ratings calculations start to break down because one fluky throw is worth too many rating points. Horizons Park in Winston Salem has had this problem over the years with borderline acceptable SSA values near 41 http://www.pdga.com/course-ratings-b...ingCourseID=69 but never below 40 SSA.

[rob]

875 does seem low for shooting 7 under par. But it is a short course and I have shot -15 during a 1-disc challange, using a putter. So, it is very possible.

[cgkdisc]

I'm guessing the "true par" on that layout is not 54 but it includes holes with pars we will not mention...

[ThePatrick]

Thanks for looking at it. I know that mathematically it's probably correct, but some application of logic would lead me to think that they would be a little low, just sucks for them when they tear up a course, and the second lowest score on the round barely shot her rating...

[bruce_brakel]

Maybe what you are seeing here is the mathematical effect when almost every gator shoots well on a course. If some gators shoot well and some gators shoot poorly, the players who shoot well get good ratings and the players who shoot poorly don't. But if all the gators or almost all of them shoot well, the players who shoot well are only going to get average ratings.

When you have a small pool of gators, it is possible that every gator could have a very good round on a course compared to what they would normally shoot, and then the math just treats those very good rounds as being average rounds.

[cgkdisc]

The odds are about 1 in 8000 of five gators all playing three or more shots better than their ratings in a round, let alone more than five, but it can happen.

[born2lose]

I have a question for ya Chuck. This happened this weekend so i am wondering if they got it right. There was 2 added holes to make the course have 20 holes. One of the added holes shot from 14s short pad away from the normal hole, toward the long pad of 14. Then you would play the long pad on 14 to 14s basket. The player was asked to go spot on the temp hole and when he went up he must have thought they said they would spot for him and he threw from the long pad to 14s basket. Then the group told him he blew it and he came back and they all played the temp hole. Then they all teed of on 14 except him. He played the drive that he threw earlier when the had him spot. What would the rule be here. They ended up giving him two stokes for playing the holes out of order. is this the right call? Thanks for your time

[born2lose]

I have another question also. Is there any updates to the rule book for 2010. My book is from 07 and i was wondering since i did not receive a new rulebook with my renewal. Do we have to buy a new rulebook or something? it seems like that should be included in the 50 dollars we pay to renew. Thanks
-Jesse

[cgkdisc]

Two throws sounds right, the way it came out. However, he should only have gotten a practice throw penalty for the first throw, picked up his disc and played that hole over from the beginning after playing the temp hole with everyone.

[cgkdisc]

I have another question also. Is there any updates to the rule book for 2010. My book is from 07 and i was wondering since i did not receive a new rulebook with my renewal. Do we have to buy a new rulebook or something? it seems like that should be included in the 50 dollars we pay to renew. Thanks

No new rulebook for 2010. However, you can get a combo book that has the rules and the Competition manual combined.

[krupicka]

What should have been done was treat his incorrect throw as a practice throw and not use it. Simply a single stroke penalty.

[born2lose]

Thanks for responding so quick chuck. i am glad we did the right thing.
Krupicka: We would have treated it as a practice throw but he used it as his drive so he never threw another shot hence no practice throw. We teated it as playing holes out of order which is 2 throws

[bruce_brakel]

Originally Posted by krupicka

What should have been done was treat his incorrect throw as a practice throw and not use it. Simply a single stroke penalty.

You are correct that that is what they should have done, but they didn't, if I understand the story, so the question is how to score it after they did what they shouldn't have done.

To me it seems like a one-throw penalty for the practice throw on 14, since they caught that before he took a subsequent throw. Then when they played 14, he played it from the lie of his practice throw rather than from the tee, which would be a two-throw penalty, added to the number of throws he took after starting from the wrong location. This would not be for playing the hole out of order, but for not playing the proper tee.

All of this would result in him getting penalized two more throws than the actual number of throws he took on the two holes combined, which sounds like what Chuck was saying. It's what I'm saying, regardless.

[the_kid]

Why is it that AM Worlds has a DVD this year yet they still pay $50 in membership? I thought that was part of the reason Pros payed $75 due to the fact we partially finance the video (idk why it isn't AMs and Pros).

BTW I am not complaining about AM membership fees and if anything they need to be reduced I just thought it was funny that one of the main reasons ours is higher is the Worlds video and now the PDGA is making 2 separate DVDs........carry on

[the_kid]

Chuck, there still isn't a list of all the rated rounds above 1075 or so?

That 1083 I shot in a C-tier adjusted to 1089 and I still wish there was a way to compare it to other C-tiers and I will do it myself if I can get a hold of a list of all the hot rounds......SSA means something for sure but I know 1070 rounds are more common at NTs than C-tiers and especially rounds that are almost 1090.

Thanks

[cgkdisc]

SSA means something for sure but I know 1070 rounds are more common at NTs than C-tiers and especially rounds that are almost 1090.

Of course they are. More players with ratings over 1020 at NTs means more players who are likely to shoot 1070 rounds regularly. Feldberg should shoot 1070+ once every other tournament.

The 10 Best Rounds in each SSA range may not be updated until after Worlds.

Far as I know, Clash/Billy Crump took on the Am Worlds DVD as his own project, not the PDGA.

[the_kid]

Originally Posted by cgkdisc

Of course they are. More players with ratings over 1020 at NTs means more players who are likely to shoot 1070 rounds regularly. Feldberg should shoot 1070+ once every other tournament.

The 10 Best Rounds in each SSA range may not be updated until after Worlds.

Far as I know, Clash/Billy Crump took on the Am Worlds DVD as his own project, not the PDGA.

So you don't have just the top 50-70 rounds ever? No SSA ranges just 1117-1070? Heck I will find out if the event was C-B-A-NT I just need something to look at.

Also it is good to hear about Billy taking it upon himself to produce the AM worlds vid....since many who participated (or not) will love to see it.

[cgkdisc]

Roger usually sends me the current top 12-15 in each of the five SSA ranges then I format them for posting. Maybe we'll do a top 50 all-time in each SSA range as a yearend bonus. Remind me then.

[the_kid]

Originally Posted by cgkdisc

Roger usually sends me the current top 12-15 in each of the five SSA ranges then I format them for posting. Maybe we'll do a top 50 all-time in each SSA range as a yearend bonus. Remind me then.

You know I will! Good luck and have fun at Worlds Mr. Kennedy!

[SCOTT]

If Jimmy cracks corn and no one cares why is there a song about it?

[cgkdisc]

The song goes "I don't care" whoever I is...

[Big Easy]

Chuck I found your 80% sheet adjusting scores to 50 online somewhere.
Is there anything else available for generating handicaps that you are aware of ???
Trying to do a handicap night for our weekly mini.
Excel ect. ???
Thanks
D.P.

[cgkdisc]

All of my recent efforts on handicaps have been tweaking the www.discgolfunited.com handicapping system to be the best possible. It handles potential sandbagging, fast improving players and uses the internal PDGA ratings calculations to produce handicaps. The service is free for PDGA members and only $10 (or less) per year for non-PDGA members. They can even maintain their own personal handicaps for any other rounds they play outside leagues. Directors have all the automated tools they need to run handicap leagues.

[Fats]

I can't seem to find the qualifications to be invited to pro worlds. And if I'm not invited (probably won't play enough events this year for 2011), how easy is it to get in from the waitlist?

[cgkdisc]

There's no waitlist as such. Just sign up when the event is open to everyone usually later in May. Never a problem in Open.

[born2lose]

I looked this up in FAQ but it didn't really answer my question. When our rating is calculated, is it just an average of all our rated rounds that are 12 months from our most recent rated round, with the most recent 25% double weighted? Thanks again.

[cgkdisc]

Yep. We only go back more than 12 months if you have fewer than 8 rated rounds within the past 12 months.