Ask Chuck Kennedy

[vinnie]

Seems to be enough intellagent folks on this thread to ask

What is the number for the largest female attended PDGA event?
And what is the number for the largest women only PDGA event?

[cgkdisc]

Send request to Gentry at PDGA office. He'll be able to check the database. Biggest US Women's Championship turnout was 78 in 2006 which ties with the Texas Women's Championship in 2009. There were 98 at the Pro-Am-Jr Worlds in 2004. No USWDGC or Worlds has topped those since then.

[edman]

TWC is at 92 right now which is more than me and Vinnie could imagine. No need to give Gentry a shout being that we are 3 days out. If you build it pink they will come.

[LongNeck]

I just played a junior tournament. shot my best ever and a good rating if we had got one. I am guessing there were not enough of us to calculate a rating. the tourney is here http://www.pdga.com/tournament-results?TournID=10109 would you please confirm or denie this. thanks a lot.

[cgkdisc]

There aren't enough for the unofficial online software to calculate ratings but I think we'll have enough to calculate them officially when we get the tournament report. A few of the players are not current but have ratings that could be used for the calculations but the online software won't use them if they aren't current. The official software will use their scores.

[mitchjustice]

Chuck ...what do I need to change on the TWC results that will allow for FW2 and 3 to get ratings

[cgkdisc]

There's nothing you can do to get unofficial ratings online since there aren't any players (propagators) with ratings over 799 to calculate ratings from. If we're going to get ratings for them when we do the official calcs, we'll have to do a manual process where you supply accurate course lengths in your TD report for the layouts they played. We will get ratings for them.

[cholly]

Hi Chuck,

Can you tell me who ( among top pros ) has the smallest standard deviation for their rounds? AND also possibly who has the largest standard deviation?

Seems like an interesting point, to know who is most consistent.

[cgkdisc]

How far down in rating is a "top pro"?

There are 26 players over 1020 in the March update. Jussi Meresmaa and John E. McCray come in around 16 for the low end SD. Paul McBeth and Paul Ulibarri come in around 28 SD at the high end.

[veganray]

Chuck, your thoughts (rule-wise)?

A dude won the advanced ladies' division at the Eastern Massachusetts Championships (a non-PDGA event in NEFA-land) this past weekend:

(S)he is apparently living life full-time as a woman, but has yet to go through "The Change".

I have some serious concerns, particularly considering the runaway margin of victory. Thoughts?

[cgkdisc]

If it were a PDGA event and the person was a member, then we could check to see whether that person was listed as M or F on the PDGA rolls. If a non-member, I would ask that person for some form of ID indicating gender if it was in question. Without some verification from ID, the person would still be able to play in the appropriate, technically non-gender, PDGA skill based division from Novice up thru Open following the usual procedure TDs (hopefully) go thru asking what kinds of scores they shoot, division they play in league, etc.

[veganray]

I just sent the following email to the PDGA Rules Committee:

This past weekend, a gentleman who has been living his life in the gender role of a lady competed in (and won) a non-PDGA event. While he identifies as female, he possesses a US birth certificate identifying him as male & a complete set of male genitalia.

My question is: where does the PDGA stand on transgendered athletes competing in gender-protected divisions? Would the fellow above be allowed to compete in a ladies' division in PDGA play? If so, please justify. If not, where would the PDGA draw the line? A female-identifying birth certificate? Driver's license? Visual inspection? Hormonal test? Chromosomal test?

I await your reply to this potentially sticky issue. Thanx!

Though the PDGA & its staff rarely respond to valid queries in a timely and/or helpful manner, I would like to know the org's position on this matter.

[cgkdisc]

I already alerted PDGA staff on this issue this morning after reading the NEFA thread. The Competition, not Rules, Committee would typically be the group to review and propose any possible policy statements for Board approval. Since the Summit meeting is next week anyway, I suspect the topic may wait to be discussed there.

[veganray]

Very well, then. I will expect not to receive a reply after next week's meeting then.

[tkieffer]

Renee Richards (women's tennis) from the 70's is an example how other sports have had to address this. She sued the tennis association and their 'women-born-women' policy and won. She had gone through the change and I remember it being very controversial at the time.

More at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9e_Richards

[veganray]

I'm quite aware of that case, but am extremely curious to see where the PDGA will draw the line & its ideas on testing/enforcement in the event of a dispute.

[tkieffer]

Out of curiosity, where would you draw the line? How would you test or enforce?

Definitely a tough subject.

[veganray]

Though the inherent unfairness would still be there in spades, IMHO the org has not the resources to draw the line anywhere other than to require the production of a legit ID (birth certificate, maybe) with a big, fat "F" on it in the "Sex" field. A far from perfect solution, but at least easily workable & cost-free.

[tkieffer]

Perhaps if designated on a drivers license as such, then good to play as such. A quick Google search came up with the Wisconsin DOT info:

Wisconsin: DOT- DIS division allows gender change on drivers license prior to surgery if such person is enrolled in a transgender program leading to SRS. Wisconsin does link their driver record with the SSA, but this should not be a problem as long as the SSN, Name, Address, Age, etc. is all correct.


I would expect things vary from state to state.

[Giles]

Chuck, I don't think you are the one to change this but I thought I'd toss an idea your way as you are The Man on the subject of ratings.

On players stats, rating details. It would be nice to include the rounds that dropped on the last update With "dropped" instead of yes or no on the "included" column.

I'd also like to second what someone said about having the players city/state stay on for the tournament results.

[RhynoBoy]

Chuck,

Is it true that the minimum # of holes required in a round for a rating is 13?

Thanks,

Chris

[cgkdisc]

On players stats, rating details. It would be nice to include the rounds that dropped on the last update With "dropped" instead of yes or no on the "included" column.

There are several things that need to be revamped and I'm hoping the priority will finally be getting near the top this year. Since the Yes/No is a simple flag, maybe making the No in Bold Red text would be easier and just as effective.

I'd also like to second what someone said about having the players city/state stay on for the tournament results.

Real estate on that page is limited and you can see the info by clicking on the player names. It's only there before the event because there's room without the scores. Maybe the 2-letter state or country ID could be left there at least.

Is it true that the minimum # of holes required in a round for a rating is 13?

Yes.

[RhynoBoy]

Cool. We're looking at doing a 1 day tournament with 3 rounds of 13. It'd be neat to get 3 ratings out of a 1-day event.

[jmonny]

Chuck....say you're rated 950. Scenario 1-You have one new event in your update (none dropped) where you shot 4 940 rated rounds. Scenario 2-You shoot 3 rounds above 950 and 1 well below (not excluded) to average 940 for the event. Question-Is scenario 2 better for your rating even though the average is the same?

[cgkdisc]

It will depend on how many total rounds you have in the past 12 months from that new event date. If only 2 or 3 of the new rounds get double weighted, the outcome will be slightly different in each scenario. If all get double weighted, it won't make a difference with these rare exceptions. If your standard deviation went down just enough in Scenario 1 where a round previously included is now excluded or vice versa where in Scenario 2 you now have a round included that was previously excluded because your standard deviation went up, the ratings would be slightly differerent.

[sammyshaheen]

Why don't rounds get dropped that are so good they
are out of your standard deviation? Not that I want my
round dropped but I have one that is way out in a good way.

[krupicka]

Dropping rounds is only there to prevent bagging. If you rock, you rock!

[cgkdisc]

Why don't rounds get dropped that are so good they
are out of your standard deviation?

Because you can produce a really bad round anytime you want. You can't produce a really good round any time you want. They're not equally random.

[Fats]

Totally selfish question - with the latest ratings update, Mitch and I seem to have overtaken the Lissamans in terms of ratings. (They are not current, but looking at a tourney from '08 that I happened to know they played, their ratings are listed at 1007 and 960). Mitch and I are are 1004 and 969. To the best of your knowledge, do we hold the highest rating for twins or have some upstarts come along that I don't know about?

[cgkdisc]

Not sure how the PDGA would know who the twins were in the data files to check it? We'll have to see if anyone else pipes in. I think Markus and Anders still hold the brothers title.