Ask David Mac about new or existing Gateway Golf Discs here!!!

[TROTTER]

OK, I am getting tired of everyone making a fuss over something so small like a re-tool.

Not a single part of the mold is likely to be the same as the Warrior that was approved as a driver and the Warrior now being sold as a midrange - but that is "something so small like a re-tool?"

Perception is reality, I guess. It is a pretty sure bet if you can drive a truck through loopholes in the rules - the rules are bad.

Point me to a driver on ebay that was sold as a Roc or an Aviar and I will put a bid on it...

Although, that would explain some of the Bulletin Board Distances we read - somebody throws their Roc on 550' tunnel shots slightly uphill or 90' hyzer skips from their favorite Champion Roc...

Why else would somebody carry 15 Rocs around in their Revo Back-Pak if it wasn't because the mold variations take approved Rocs all the way from putter molds to wide-rim wicked fast driver molds?

You might be on to something there - that sounds like proof positive to me that Roc variations are the exact same situation as to what is currently being discussed in regard to the Warrior.

[Smokey102977]

The re-tool issue is not about calling it the Warrior. The mold that was re-tooled was the Element X. Now, you claim that because Gateway changed the name from the Element X to the Warrior they should have to pay to have the disc mold re- certified. I understand the issue of calling the new mid-range the Warrior since the old Gateway Warrior was a Control Driver, but should they have to go through the re-evaluation procedure just because they changed the name of the disc? Imagine if you had a patent for a product, then changed its name after you patented it. Do you have to pay for a new patent because of a name change? No, you own the patent for the design, not the name. Since Gateway owns both the name and the design, they have the right to inform the PDGA of their changes and the PDGA has the duty to make modifications to their list of approved disc as long as the new disc conforms to the PDGA standards as stated by Chuck K.

[rob]

I don't really see this as a bash on Gateway. It just so happens to be Gateway that (1) made a change to a mold of an approved disc- OK, (2)changed the name of that disc to the name of a different, also approved disc's name- confusing (3)didn't notify the PDGA of said change for 9 months?- not good/ already noted by Gateway. So, now it and the Voodoo isn't approved? Should be fixed pretty soon, as posted by Dave. I think any disc that's been available for any length of time that isn't approved would cause the same discussion. I know that if I had been playing with a disc for months, just now finding out it's "illegal", I would be pretty upset.
Not everybody is bashing Gateway.

[Smokey102977]

The discs have only been available for approx. 4-5 months. I still say that according to PDGA tech. standards, the Warrior is a legal disc. Now the name change may be a different story, but how hard is it to update the disc list??? Dave should not have to pay to re-use an old name. Not really saying everyone is bashing, but it seems like some come out of the wood work to say something against Gateway and they rarely ever post on the Gateway Forum Topic but seem to frequent other disc company forums.

[JHBlader86]

Some people just passionately hate David and all of Gateway. No matter what good he does for the sport, because he doesnt have the largest product selection and a 12x world champion he'll automatically be condemned by the disc golf community. Disc golfers dont really care for change and hate challenges to the status quo.

You wouldnt believe the crap I take for throwing a primarily Gateway bag. I've had people tell me how stupid, [censored] and retarded I am for throwing Gateway products and I'll ask if they've ever thrown them to which they respond 99% of the time "I dont need to throw them to know they all suck." I too, though, had the same mentality until I decided to try a few of his products exclusively for about a week and was hooked.

[mikeP]

Some people just passionately hate David and all of Gateway. No matter what good he does for the sport, because he doesnt have the largest product selection and a 12x world champion he'll automatically be condemned by the disc golf community. Disc golfers dont really care for change and hate challenges to the status quo.

You wouldnt believe the crap I take for throwing a primarily Gateway bag. I've had people tell me how stupid, [censored] and retarded I am for throwing Gateway products and I'll ask if they've ever thrown them to which they respond 99% of the time "I dont need to throw them to know they all suck." I too, though, had the same mentality until I decided to try a few of his products exclusively for about a week and was hooked.

If you didn't throw all Gateway, people would find something else to give you crap about.

[Furthur]

The discs have only been available for approx. 4-5 months. I still say that according to PDGA tech. standards, the Warrior is a legal disc. Now the name change may be a different story, but how hard is it to update the disc list??? Dave should not have to pay to re-use an old name. Not really saying everyone is bashing, but it seems like some come out of the wood work to say something against Gateway and they rarely ever post on the Gateway Forum Topic but seem to frequent other disc company forums.

I think there are 2 separate issues. You are correct that within the pdga guidelines, Gateway can use the old Warrior name with any mold they prefer (in this case, the retooled ELX). The company is not required to re-submit it for testing. The question to me seems to be that if you have a change in the mold, why shouldn't the pdga make you re-submit it? Perhaps there should be no fee at all, or a small fee (that's probably a political/logistical decision), but it just doesn't make sense to me how a retooling of a mold shouldn't be resubmitted. This applies to all companies, not just Gateway (you'll find that the majority of the X/L molds from Innova aren't listed on the approved disc list, but the company doesn't brand most of those discs as X/L molds. ex: Gator, not the Gator-L or Gator-X).

Gateway has never been afraid to rock the boat (which is one of the reasons I feel the company does great things to progress the sport), but this particular issue, with people so polarized about the company, really sheds light on how ridiculous the approval process is.

[cgkdisc]

Read the Tech Standards. Manufacturers are required to resubmit when they make mold changes under the same name. They may not have to pay a fee either.

(E) Retesting
There are several circumstances under which a disc that has been previously approved is required to be
submitted for a retesting procedure:
(1) Mold, Material or Production Technique Changes - If there are changes to a mold that has been
producing an approved disc, the discs produced by the changed mold may have to be retested for
approval. Not all such changes require approval. Retesting is only required if a mold includes the addition or
removal of a new structural feature such as a bead, or results in a measurement that may violate any of the
technical standards.

The requirements, procedures, schedule, and fees of the retesting procedure are identical to that of the
initial testing procedure outlined above. If it is demonstrated that the disc in question does not meet the
requirements for retesting there will be no fee due from the manufacturer.

[Furthur]

So this issue with the Warrior having the same name isn't the 1st problem with this? I don't see a lot of the Innova X/L mold variations on that approved list.

[rob]

I don't have any problem with Gateway. But to all the people that LOVE Gateway, don't you find it just a little upsetting that they have a good putter that you may have been using for several months, just to find out it's "illegal"? And I have no problem with retooling a disc or even changing it's name. But changing it to another previously approved disc's name is just confusing. What if Innova retooled the Roc (I know-already done) but then changed the name to Leopard? How about Discraft retooling the Wasp (I know- it's called a Buzzz) and called it a Talon? Would you be confused and/or just think that's stupid? Come on, Gateway is better than that. Hopefully, all of this will be fixed soon

[Furthur]

I have a bigger issue with a toothless policy from the pdga.

[Boneman]

I have a bigger issue with a toothless policy from the pdga.

I hear'ya there brother!

To the previous post. Sure, it's a little disappointing that the Voodoo is not approved yet. That will be taken care of very soon.

I don't have any issue with using a good disc name for another good disc. It's the PDGA process that makes it difficult ... because EVERYONE knows that the new warrior is a different disc ... It's very simple for the player ... it's not simple for the PDGA.
Maybe there needs to be a better way to designate an approved disc? Maybe a model number, instead of by name?

[johnbiscoe]

model number on each part of the mold seems to make sense...

can someone explain how we wound up approving names to begin with instead of something more substantive? (chuck? dave?)

[cgkdisc]

Before my time.

[Furthur]

Maybe we should go back to that time.

[discchucker]

[gippy]

Dave Where's DAAAAAAAAVVVVVVVVEEEEEE

[mikeP]

By bgraham | Mar 26, 2009 | Tags: Gateway Voodoo
Tech Standards Alert - Gateway Voodoo

As of 3/26/09, the new "Voodoo" putter by Gateway Disc Sports has not been approved by the PDGA for use in sanctioned events, despite the words "PDGA Approved Golf Disc" in the hotstamp. The Voodoo was recently submitted to the technical standards committee and will be tested as soon as the testing fees have been received by the office. Use of the Voodoo in PDGA competitions is prohibited until the disc has received official certification from the PDGA.

PDGA Approved Discs & Targets: http://www.pdga.com/tech-standards

So....I guess the Voodoo is a no go this weekend. Hopefully this silliness will be resolved by next weekend because I'm playing.

[dgdave]

How did the Apex turn out?

[gdstour]

The facts are we just forgot about the sending in the fee.
The fee for the Voodoo is in the mail and I'm sure it will be approved soon.
We are a very small company and sometimes it takes a squeaky wheel for me to get out the oil!!

I apologize if our error has caused or is causing players or TD's a problem.
It should be approved by next weekend!

[QUOTE]

Gateway has never been afraid to rock the boat (which is one of the reasons I feel the company does great things to progress the sport), but this particular issue, with people so polarized about the company, really sheds light on how ridiculous the approval process is.

(THANKS CHRIS for making this point)
Now we are getting to the crux of a problem.


Lets say there is a player with all custom stamped discs in his bag and he wants his discs checked to make sure he's using ALL pdga approved discs!
or maybe another player wants this guiys discs checked,, either way,, whats the procedure???

So you have a stack of custom stamped discs and a list supplied by the pdga and a willing TD ( even though there is no actual rule stating he must check the discs) But lets say he is willing to give it a go.

How would he check to make sure each disc is the disc on the list?
would he need any measuring devices?
like a a scale or caliper.
Are there drawings he could use?

I know SOME TD's and players could tell you just about every disc ever made by looking at it but I don't think MOST TD's or players could do this.

A stack of discs and a list is how we check to make sure all discs used in events are within the rules?
surely we need a better plan and procedure,,, don't we???




Now that one players discs are checked wouldn't that player want everyone's discs checked?
Is it fair to only check one players discs?



Whats coming form all this now,,, is that people should be aware that there are a set of rules discs must pass to be approved but no set of rules for checking them at events.

If a disc starts out with a 5% rim depth and after so much play it is worn down to 4% ( which is now outside of the rules) should this disc be able to be used?

A discs could be factored down in 2 minutes to 4% rim depth to make it faster,, who can tell the difference between actual wear and factoring?
Both discs are under the limit, should they be able to be used?

Today there are 7 or 8 disc manufactures who's discs are used in pdga events and we all do our best to make sure we are conforming to the rules.
From time to time some discs will still get out from all companies that are TOO firm, Too heavy, or Too small due to processing and human error.
I certainly cant personally check every single disc we make.

Whats going to happen when there are 30 disc companies and some of them are making discs outside of the pdga rules because they are finding out they can make discs go farther and that there is still a demand for these discs even though they are not pdga approved???

believe me when I say this is going to happen and it will happen really soon. About 95% of all discs produced will NEVER be used in a pdga event. If a disc is eventually made that goes far or is really straight that winds up outside of our rules 95% of the players would care less and will buy and use a non pdga approved disc.
at some pint this discs that are actually outside of the rules will wind up being used by players in events.
again, trustr me when I say this is going to happen one day.
when this day comes shouldnt we be prepared for it with, rules, procedures, protocols, measuring templates,,, SOMETHING???

I think if its important to make rules for the discs used in play that we should start thinking about how we are going to be able to make sure the discs that ARE used are within the rules.


I'll pose a simple question for competitive players:

Would you rather play against a guy with all of his discs within the rules set forth but not on a list or against a guy with discs that are all on the list but outside of the rules,,,too heavy, too stiff, too small diameter, too sharp of nose radius and too small of rim depth??


BTW,,
2 wrongs never make a right but I heard Innova released the SL and didn't send it in for PDGA approval for quite sometime.
Not sure why this happened but I'm told that it did!
I don't remember hearing all the negativity about it, in fact i don't think I heard much about it all!
To me it didn't seem like a big deal and no one made a big deal about it either!

[mikeP]

Would you rather play against a guy with all of his discs within the rules set forth but not on a list or against a guy with discs that are all on the list but outside of the rules,,,too heavy, too stiff, too small diameter, too sharp of nose radius and too small of rim depth??

The thought of someone telling me that I couldn't putt with my Voodoo in the tourney next weekend definetely had my mind imagining this scenario. I was ready to bring my digital scale and demand the same enforcement of the rules that was forcing me to switch putters be applied to everyone and all rules. I also think that the PDGA knew this and it is why they did not make a stink about this until a couple of players realized it. Many times I've bought 5 of the newest driver, threw them all in the field, only to later discover that the one that kicked butt for headwinds weighed 178g...and I own a scale. How many competitors never putt their discs on a scale? How many of their headwind drivers are overweight? I also know pros that prefer stiff discs and have a whole bag that would fail the rigidity test (this is worse than the weight issue b/c its impossible for a player to measure). Dave is right in that we have some issues to deal with as an organization.

[JHBlader86]

Is there a way to rush the progress before BG Ams?? I am so use to the Voodoo that I cant see myself going back to the Warlock.

[cgkdisc]

Homburg has the discs ready for testing as soon as the PDGA office says the check has been received and deposited. So the forecast looks good for BG Ams.

[JHBlader86]

Sweet!!! Thanks!!!

[gippy]

That would be nice to see it Okayed by next weekend FDR Fools Fest is that weekend that I am going to

[Smokey102977]

Here, here Dave!!! My beliefe is that you should be able to throw any disc even if it has not received the "PDGA stamp of approval" as long as it conforms to the PDGA standards. How do players test a disc if they are not allowed to throw it in tournaments? To pay for a disc that may not live up to the standards of the company is just stupid, not to mention that if you decide to modify it, you may have to repay to use the mold. I need a few Apex drivers!!! lol.

[pdiddy71]

i got a SSS wizard today that i won off of ebay that is firm. i was hoping it was a little softer than my SS wizard.

[zbiberst]

just carry it in your trousers, warm it up!

[gippy]

i got a SSS wizard today that i won off of ebay that is firm. i was hoping it was a little softer than my SS wizard.

Throw it in the dishwasher or Washing machine

[JHBlader86]

David, a question and a request...

Will you be bringing to the BG Ams the Apex prototype to sell??

And can you bring some E Illusion QC's?? I need to get a few because my other one is starting to get flippy.