Increasing Non-member Fees: $5 --> $8

[underparmike]

WVO, you are way off base. You get a lot more! You get the hassle of looking up every player to see if they are current or not, you get billed $25 if you don't want to fill out the 18 million item PDGA TD report, and, you get to wait and see if the PDGA will even approve your event date, PLUS you get the joy of the PDGA Executive Director talking down to you at every chance he gets.

WHAT A GREAT DEAL!!! THE PDGA DOES IT ALL! I LOVE THEIR FLUFFY MAGAZINE WITH THE SAME ARTICLES OVER AND OVER EACH ISSUE! I MEAN, HOW MANY ARTICLES ABOUT THE GIRL SCOUTS DO WE GET TO READ? IT NEVER GETS OLD. NEVER.

[RobBull]

Craig,

It may be a molehill in NorCal. But in much smaller disc golf markets it is a mountain. Many of us TD's have been following the Field of Dreams mentality of "If you build it they will come". By holding quality sanctioned events, we are hoping that PDGA membership will increase. When PDGA memberships increase we are able to hold bigger, better and more numerous tournaments. In Utah there are 3 sanctioned tournaments a year. I know for a fact that this will keep players from going to sanctioned tournaments especially a one day C-Tier.

[WVOmorningwood]

Thanks Mikey...your sarcastic point of view put a smile on my face!

It seems that you're making a mountain out of a molehill. In our area rec players get in for about half price anyway so a small $3.00 increase will not make or break whether a new player plays the local tourny or not. But it will make it more attractive for people who play 4 to 5 tournies a year to pony up and join the pdga. At St. Pat's this last year PDGA membership was MANDETORY for all divisions except Rec and the field still maxed out at 188 players. This might not have been true in your area, but when people are told what you get with the membership, combined with the fact that 5 at $8 vs. 8 at $5. The membership will pay for itself. I think the PDGA will find even more people opting to join. Personally I'm grateful for everything that's going on in the name of the PDGA . This website, DG news, Worlds, Player Ratings etc. and if they feel they should charge non-members a little more so be it.

I never said that the $3 increase would keep a player from playing. However, some people have said or implied that we don't need the lower amateur divisions at PDGA tournaments and I disagree with that.

I'm going along with Bruce on this one and taking a wait and see attitude if the PDGA does follow thru on increasing the non-member fee to $8. If the lower division players make it clear that they would rather play unsanctioned than pay an additional $3, then I will have to consider that in the future.

Rob,

I checked out the entrants to your Riverside open. 22/41 were non-pdga including the Open Winner. If GOOD players can enter a tournament without PDGA membership for only $5 whats the incentive to join? Also, whats to prevent non-pdga players from bagging your Am 2 division? I'm all for encouraging new players especially in the juniors, rec, and womens ams divisions. Keep those fees low or eliminate them entirely. Raise the fees in the others, at least for B tier and above.

Just a thought.

[eddie_ogburn]

Raising fees is not the way to go. We want to grow the sport, not push newbies away. I remember going to my first tournament saying $25 + $5 fee is a little steep to be playing "disc golf". You have to remember, $30 is a lot for someone not knowing what to expect and is probably not going to cash. Its not the right thing to do and I hope the PDGA will seriously reconsider this.

Of course we need the lower am divisions. That's what keeps our sport growing, and they are the hardest players to keep around. Its easy being a big fish. It's hard to keep coming back if you are on the bottom end of the food chain.

[bruce_brakel]

Responding to my brother Jon, either you mssed my last post or I forgot to hit the post button. I went over to the hysterical opposition camp.

Remind me to remind you of my idea for the "third way" to deal with this if it goes through. I think there's a way to triagulate the dilemma whether to sanction.

Meanwhile, I can't emphasize enough that for most of our players it will be $8 more and not $3 more. Most of our non-members are first-year tournament players. In 2006 they will mostly be players who never paid $5 so they are looking at a flyer that says:

PDGA Members	Non-members
All pro divisions	$45	$53
All Advanced	$36	$44
Int. and Rec.	$22	$30

The difference between 8 and 5 is irrelevant. It's not like we are publishing a column for last year's prices.

Responding to my brother Jon, either you mssed my last post or I forgot to hit the post button. I went over to the hysterical opposition camp.

Remind me to remind you of my idea for the "third way" to deal with this if it goes through. I think there's a way to triagulate the dilemma whether to sanction.

Meanwhile, I can't emphasize enough that for most of our players it will be $8 more and not $3 more. Most of our non-members are first-year tournament players. In 2006 they will mostly be players who never paid $5 so they are looking at a flyer that says:



The difference between 8 and 5 is irrelevant. It's not like we are publishing a column for last year's prices.

The last post of yours that I saw on this topic you talked about the economics of raising the fees and that you didn't think it would be a revenue producing venture.

That doesn't sound like hysterical opposition.

I also agree with you that most of the non-members are not going to say "Well, only $3 more, guess I'll play!" They're going to say "Man, $30. Joe, you got twenty-one fifty I can borrow?"

[jakewalsdorf]

What kind of money are we talking about? PDGA - How much money does the PDGA collect from non member fees over a year?

[ck34]

I'm baffled why the flyers wouldn't look like this:

Division	Entry Fee	PDGA members
Pro	$53	$45
Advanced	$44	$36
Int & Rec	$30	$22

3-month PDGA membership $10
(includes magazine, sticker, $8 event discount)

[WVOmorningwood]

Point taken Mr. PDGAHQ. Although that was a one time good deal. And I can think of no other person or tournamnet that has a product to benefit a Tournament, any other purchase would be benefitting a business entitiy...I work my toucas off for the WVO at NO benefit to me. Do you know of anyone else that works as selflessly as I do?

Point taken Mr. PDGAHQ.

Point NOT taken, Mr. PDGAHQ.

Does the PDGA provide similar financial support to every other A-tiers as part of the Sanctioning Agreement? Because unless those dollars came out of the PDGA's regular financial support package for A-tiers and are given to EVERY A-tier, the fact that the PDGA purchased wooden minis from the WVO is irrelevant to the question of what a TD/event receives in exchange for paying the sanctioning fees.

[ck34]

There are so many volunteers and those who have produced handmade trophies over the years who don't do it for a business, not that people don't appreciate what you do, too. Marshall Street has been sending out lots of free DVDs, volunteers have made custom tee signs for courses as donations to their community, etc.

I'm baffled why the flyers wouldn't look like this:


3-month PDGA membership $10
(includes magazine, sticker, $8 event discount)

Because that is called lying, and we try our hardest not to lie to our players. Payouts as currently defined by the PDGA as a percentage of the entry fee. If we advertise an entry fee of $30, but then base the payout on $22 (after we set aside $8 for the PDGA), then we are lying to our non-member players.

[ck34]

No lies involved. The basis for payout is very clear. It's the amount after excluding all local, club, basket fund, series, greens fees, park fees, regional and/or national fees. Why would you include some of those fees in the entry fee and not others? The discount approach should be used by all TDs if they want to be more effective at marketing.

Hey Mr. PDGA Headquarters, do you know Brian Hoeniger? He works in your office. He's the really really grouchy guy who needs anger management. Yeah, that guy. How much does he make? Okay, if that's too direct a question, how many non-members at PDGA tournaments would have to pay the extra $3 to cover his salary? I'm just curious. See, I hear about this Hoeniger guy being like totally selfless, that he worked for the Peace Corps or something, and one whole year ate only bugs so the natives would have enough food to go around. I'm wondering why no one knows what his salary is. It seems a funny thing to keep secret, especially when the job seems to involve all this financial and budget stuff. It just doesn't make sense.

Anyway, I had this idea. If we could find out his salary (and the other salaries), and if we think those are too much -- like way more than the best player earns in prize money -- we could just vote or something to cut his salary and we wouldn't have to worry about increasing the non-member fee to $8.

That way we could get more people to play the game, and fewer people would say all those bad things about the PDGA. Just an idea.

Anyway, if you see Mr. Hoeniger tell him Jason says hello and gives him a big hug. He probably needs a big hug.

[ck34]

If you were a member, you'd see it in the PDGA pages of the Spring issues of DGWN. There's an item for Personnel that lists who's included. It's common for small groups to not break it out into individual salaries for widespread publication, but even looking at the total would make most candidates think twice whether it was worth it for what he sometimes has to put up with from nonmembers...

[MTL21676]

This thread has been going on for 17 pages and I have yet to post.

This thread is offically a thread now.

Chuck, by non-members do you also mean non-current members?

[neonnoodle]

I truly do appreciate Mike giving me a big break in proving that he is clueless

i think you all missed Nick's and the PDGA's point:

WE DON'T NEED YOU AMATEUR SCUMBAGS CROWDING OUR EVENTS. WE THE PDGA ARE SO DARN GOOD, YOU SHOULD BE PAYING MORE FOR OUR ALLEGED "SERVICE" TO THE DISC GOLF COMMUNITY. WE ARE WAY TOO SMART TO EVER LISTEN TO ANYONE, NOW GO PLAY A MINI SOMEWHERE YOU SCUMBAGS.

sheesh, when will you all realize that the PDGA isn't for everyone? according to Nick, it's only for "serious" people who should be grateful the PDGA DID IT ALL FOR THEM!!! DISC GOLF WOULD BE NOTHING WITHOUT NICK AND THE PDGA, SO WHY QUESTION THEIR ALLEGED WISDOM?

You got one thing right, the PDGA as currently configured really isn’t for everyone. Here’s a brief list of those who it is not for:

1) True Amateurs
2) School Children
3) Folks that don’t want to spend more than $8 to play in an event.
4) Folks that don’t like to follow the rules of play
5) TDs that don’t like to follow the standards of PDGA events
6) Conspiracy Theorists

If a significant portion of your event participants are not PDGA members then you likely do not have the player base to really run a PDGA yet.

According to me PDGAs are for true disc golf addicts who like to know what they are getting themselves into when they go to an event, that certain standards will be met, that players will play by the rules, that the TDs will enforce the rules.

Who is going to provide all that, you Mike? Jason? Mike Crump? I wish you luck. Just don’t cry foul when the rest of us start lobbing tomatoes at your attempts that are extremely likely to be incomplete and fleeting in nature.

Oh yeah, and Mike, your mom is so fat, when she walks out of the candy store with a red turtle neck on people start yellin "Kool Aid".

[ck34]

This thread included all who would have to pay the nonmember fee. Non-currents might have saved older DGWN issues to look up PDGA financial info.

[MTL21676]

Ok,my 2 cents....

1. If someone is choosing to play in a PDGA tournament, they should have to pay a fee to play. You don't walk up to a gym where you are not member and expect to get in for free.

2. It's just three bux fellows - if someone can't afford three bones, then they shouldn't be spending money on disc golf tournaments.

[neonnoodle]

i can't disagree with that sentiment, dog. the PDGA has done a fine job of running people away from the PDGA, perhaps that is what is making our sport grow. i know it wasn't the PDGA that built 2000 courses for us to play on after all. i know it wasn't the PDGA who ran 2,000 tournaments last year.

wow, i'm getting more respect for the current PDGA BOD all the time. by totally repulsing players away from this inept, wasteful, and corrupt organization, they ARE making the sport grow! KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!

As opposed to your efforts Mikey? If they followed your model think about what we'd all have?

Yeah, it doesn't take long to think about that one. NOT A FAT LOT.

Besides, the PDGA is not only the volunteers in the Board of Directors, or the volunteers working in all of the committees; they ARE the TDs running PDGAs and the players that have the commitment to join the PDGA and much more.

I think that you, Mike Crump and Jason are just bent out of shape because your egos got bruised and you aren't the types of guys to move on. You'll carry your silly and wasteful grudges to your graves.

Which is pretty dang pitiable.

Raising the non-member fee from $5 to $8 may not be advisable in your opinions, but it certainly is no indication of some insidious conspiracy, but if that's what gives you a rise to think about then go for it. It is pretty funny stuff.

[bruce_brakel]

Ok,my 2 cents....

1. If someone is choosing to play in a PDGA tournament, they should have to pay a fee to play. You don't walk up to a gym where you are not member and expect to get in for free.

2. It's just three bux fellows - if someone can't afford three bones, then they shouldn't be spending money on disc golf tournaments.

Your analogy doesn't work because they aren't paying the fee to "the gym." "The gym" does not get dime one of the $10 or $11 that player is paying to the PDGA. They are paying the money to "the gym's franchisor" and it really should be none of his business what arrangement the gym makes with non-members. I think it is sufficient that the non-member pays the same $2 or $3 fee as the member since the PDGA does less for non-members than it does for members.

[neonnoodle]

Jon, there is a gap in you logic in my opinion.

You provide the reason why certain Rec/Int players join the PDGA and play in PDGA events.

All the reasons you supply for why those who find no reason to join the PDGA should play in PDGA events are the same for non-PDGA events. Why not run events specifically for those players needs? Why do we need to dumb down the PDGA events to meet the needs of players who by definition “have not found a good enough reason or the level of commitment to join the PDGA”?

So that they might find a reason?

That makes no sense. These players will either discover the reason to join on their own or not. If you as a TD are so committed to your cause of attracting non-PDGA players then raise the cash sponsorship to pay the fees for them.

It is not a matter of trying to “force” them to join, or dissuading them from participating, as it is a way to defray administrative costs that are normally paid by all the PDGA Members. They will join or not join for reasons beyond just saving a dollar or two.

At least I hope they will. I mean what kind of member is more likely to help out, or someday run and event, or serve as a volunteer in the PDGA? A person that begrudges a couple bucks, or one that understands what you and the PDGA are doing for disc golf and is appreciative?

We had 42 Rec division players at our last IOS event this year. We had 39 Intermediate players at the same event. These are not the "best of the best" players. Most of them are fairly new to the competitive side of the sport and are still learning. For some of them this was there first tournament. Some of them are PDGA members and like to track their ratings on line. You're saying that these people should not be playing a PDGA event? Where are the next Adv and Pro players going to come from? Is the added cash fairy now also delivering mature players to tournaments? I would expect that half of the guys that played their first tournament at IOS #7 will probably only play that event on that course because it is their home course. A few probably found out that they don't like competition. Some of them will probably enter a few events here and there. But there will also be the guys who become addicted to the competition. They will come back and play 5 or 6 IOS events next year. They will join the PDGA. A few of them will become pros one day. Maybe one of them will be the guy who steps up and helps run a few tournaments in a few years.

We have no competitive future if we push these players away.

[neonnoodle]

Thread drift..

And the only benefactor of this scenario would be the PDGA as we would have pay the fee to have an "A" teir and the fee for an NT event...as it stands now we pay only one fee to the PDGA and that is the cost to get an "A" teir listed on the schedule....and what do we get in return?...the tournament listed on the schedule. (period)

If you truly believe that Mark, then don't have it sanctioned, pretty simple.

Don't use the insurance coverage either.
Don't use this message board to sell wooden minis either.
Don't use this message board to put out event information either.
Don't use this website to post results either.
Don't use the PDGA Rules of Play either.
Don't use the PDGA Event Standards either, none of them.
Don't use the PDGA Player Ratings to determine which divisions amateurs play in.
Don't use the don't allow PDGA Members to participate either.
Don't use the sponsorship dollars and merchandise that go along with an A tier either.

To do so would be shamefully hypocritical wouldn't it?(Period!)

[neonnoodle]

The last post of yours that I saw on this topic you talked about the economics of raising the fees and that you didn't think it would be a revenue producing venture.

That doesn't sound like hysterical opposition.

I also agree with you that most of the non-members are not going to say "Well, only $3 more, guess I'll play!" They're going to say "Man, $30. Joe, you got twenty-one fifty I can borrow?"

Then lower your entry fee by $3...

[neonnoodle]

Point taken Mr. PDGAHQ. Although that was a one time good deal. And I can think of no other person or tournamnet that has a product to benefit a Tournament, any other purchase would be benefitting a business entitiy...I work my toucas off for the WVO at NO benefit to me. Do you know of anyone else that works as selflessly as I do?

Yes, about 20 in the MADC region alone.

Advice: Don't ask questions you don't want the answers to.