Increasing Non-member Fees: $5 --> $8

[Lyle O Ross]

That is so off base, it isn't even funny. If Jason craved acceptance, why would he purposely provoke, antagonize, & deconstruct every person in a position to grant him such acceptance?

I have a strong belief that he and Steve (and I know them quite well) want to evangelize for disc golf, and that getting the finest DVD in the biz out into as many hands as possible is one of their many methods of doing so, FOR THE GOOD OF THE SPORT!

My $0.02.

It's amazing how little we know about human nature in general and ourselves in particular. I'd be willing to bet a gentleman or two that I'm less off base than you think. BTW - I didn't say a thing about who Jason might be looking to for acceptance...

However, that aside, there was a second reason and that is influence. Part of influence is marketing, Jason has some DVDs he can't move, and if the PDGA moves them for him he gets a ton of free advertising and skips the cost and hassle of mailing them. Of course the PDGA is then in the position of marketing a non-sanctioned event that goes out it's way to slam the PDGA.... Now, I wonder why they wouldn't want to do that?

[Moderator005]

Nick,

You talk about everyone else doing something positive for the sport and supporting the PDGA. Why don't you stop criticizing every idea that doesn't come from you and focus on your course evaluation project? I'm sure the course eval project is suffering because of your obsessive bed wetting over this issue. There are individuals other than you that have good ideas.

Amen, brother. Welcome to the choir.

It's not just the the course eval project that is suffering. Pretty much anything Nick's name is attached to is dragged down by his overbearing presence.

I think Nick Kight is one of the reasons that all those guys started United.Disc.Golf or *****.

That the PDGA might decide that the offering does not support what the PDGA is promoting, is a legitimate argument to not include the material. The point that once the PDGA includes one group's free stuff, they would need to include every group that asks is not a legitimate point. The PDGA should evaluate any offers and decide which offers work for the PDGA.

[klemrock]

Hell froze over.
I agree with jon brakel.

Over the years, I've seen that DGWN's content evolved to/around the needs of the PDGA. Other publications might not willingly or easily make format changes that align with the PDGA. However, they might.

Why not give the member a choice of magazines?

DGWN would still retain a high percentage of its current subscribers and the new publication(s) would grow by picking up the crossovers. The PDGA would save some money and more folks would be able to get a piece of the disc golf pie.

Of course the PDGA is then in the position of marketing a non-sanctioned event that goes out it's way to slam the PDGA.... Now, I wonder why they wouldn't want to do that?

Sorry, Lyle, but your post is off-base on this (at the very least).

The MSDGC never 'went out of its way to slam the PDGA'. One of the organizers of the event had a very public issue with 'the PDGA', but in no way did the event either claim to be, or pretend to be, "anti PDGA". It was a non-sanctioned event, one of several hundred (thousand, perhaps?) held in the US on an annual basis.

Anyone that honestly claims to wish to 'promote the sport of Disc Golf' would be a lying sack of manure if they claimed that distribution of a MSDGC DVD could not potentially help to 'promote the sport'. Have you seen it? My 60 yr old mother-in-law has seriously considered taking up the sport since she watched all of about 3 minutes of it with my son.

With regard to Marshall Street wishing to move copies of the DVD and gain some potential sales in return, well, of course they would. They would be donating the DVDs with the same greedy self-interest that Innova, Discraft, Gateway, Phenix et al have in mind when they donate products or services. Do you really think Innova donates that much $$ to the USDGC for humanitarian purposes? Wake up and smell the capitalism already.

If 'the PDGA' is truly about 'promoting the sport' of disc golf, and not about petty feuds or 'I am going to take my ball and go home' then I can't see any legitimate reason not to take this offer seriously. In fact, I think not only would they be foolish not to do this, but they should be working their collective asses off to get other potential sponsors on board to create a whopper of a TD pack for each sanctioned event.

If there's a question to be asked about this, it should be, "Why did it take a couple of tree fahmers from Lestah to come up with this idea in the first place?"

[veganray]

Sorry, Lyle, but your post is off-base on this (at the very least).

The MSDGC never 'went out of its way to slam the PDGA'. One of the organizers of the event had a very public issue with 'the PDGA', but in no way did the event either claim to be, or pretend to be, "anti PDGA". It was a non-sanctioned event, one of several hundred (thousand, perhaps?) held in the US on an annual basis.

Anyone that honestly claims to wish to 'promote the sport of Disc Golf' would be a lying sack of manure if they claimed that distribution of a MSDGC DVD could not potentially help to 'promote the sport'. Have you seen it? My 60 yr old mother-in-law has seriously considered taking up the sport since she watched all of about 3 minutes of it with my son.

With regard to Marshall Street wishing to move copies of the DVD and gain some potential sales in return, well, of course they would. They would be donating the DVDs with the same greedy self-interest that Innova, Discraft, Gateway, Phenix et al have in mind when they donate products or services. Do you really think Innova donates that much $$ to the USDGC for humanitarian purposes? Wake up and smell the capitalism already.

If 'the PDGA' is truly about 'promoting the sport' of disc golf, and not about petty feuds or 'I am going to take my ball and go home' then I can't see any legitimate reason not to take this offer seriously. In fact, I think not only would they be foolish not to do this, but they should be working their collective asses off to get other potential sponsors on board to create a whopper of a TD pack for each sanctioned event.

If there's a question to be asked about this, it should be, "Why did it take a couple of tree fahmers from Lestah to come up with this idea in the first place?"

That, my friend, is VERY well said!

[Luke Butch]

How many people on here actually read all the old, deleted MSDGC threads and know about the dispute? Dan I know did, maybe Nick?

Jason had a problem with Guru, not the PDGA as a whole. I remember him and Steve getting along well with Dave Gentry, who was working with them towards the goal of NT status(before Jason had his official status revoked). They also have/had links for the PDGA on their site, as well as something I believe in the MSDGC tournament program.

They might not like Guru, but they don't hate the PDGA. The PDGA and Guru are NOT the same thing.

[neonnoodle]

Nick,

You talk about everyone else doing something positive for the sport and supporting the PDGA. Why don't you stop criticizing every idea that doesn't come from you and focus on your course evaluation project? I'm sure the course eval project is suffering because of your obsessive bed wetting over this issue. There are individuals other than you that have good ideas.

LOL!

Not laughing at you, it's just funny that folks assume that users that enjoy posting here do nothing else. Ironic considering that the accusers obviously spend a comparable amount of time reading the posts and yet still manage to do all that they do.

I assure you my activities in the PDGA Course Evaluation Program are not deminished due to posting here from time to time.

LOL!

Trust me, you are taking this far more seriously than I am.

If Jason's intentions are pure it will be entirely obvious soon enough. If the PDGA says no thank you, let's watch how he responds. Nothing will be more telling.

If I were Jason and the PDGA didn't accept my plan I would go ahead and distribute the DVDs to TDs who request them with them just covering postage. I'd send two, one for the TD and one for them to give out as a prize at their event. Why is this whole deal so dependent on the PDGA shipping them out?

[neonnoodle]

The idea is to create a value add for TDs that run PDGA events by giving them a PDGA TD Pack. Marshall Street has offered to seed these packs with the 2005 MSDGC DVDs. Innova, Discraft, and Phenix Disc Sports have all told me that they would be interested in including products in a "PDGA TD Pack" that gets sent out to every PDGA TD a week or so before their event.

This creates value for the TD (having $50 to $100 in products delivered to your door to be given out at the event is huge!), value for the players (more prizes to be won is always great!), value for the sponsors (for the cost of hundreds of products, businesses get good press (usually [img]/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]) for donating product, and good advertising) and the PDGA increases the value of becoming a PDGA event. It is a win for TDs, players, sponsors and the PDGA.

If this idea is successful, perhaps a way to expand it in the future - and pay for the logistics / extra shipping - would be to offer to include promotional materials with no retail value in the packs at a per piece price, or however that type of thing works.

If the PDGA agrees to this idea (and my conversation with David Gentry just a few minutes ago indicates that they are leaning towards implementing it), then I, as a TD, would be very interested in running my event as a PDGA event. Creating the value at the MSDGC is quite a bit of work, and when I run the Frozen Forest event, it is tough to get pumped up to get sponsors. Getting a box of CTPs is a great start and would make the ($5) non-member fee, and filling out the forms very worth it.

Sorry about the thread drift back to the orginial topic.

Sounds reasonable, I admit I don't know all that is involved. I'm glad there are folks willing to volunteer their time to figure such things out. That is of major value to me...

[neonnoodle]

It's amazing how little we know about human nature in general and ourselves in particular. I'd be willing to bet a gentleman or two that I'm less off base than you think. BTW - I didn't say a thing about who Jason might be looking to for acceptance...

However, that aside, there was a second reason and that is influence. Part of influence is marketing, Jason has some DVDs he can't move, and if the PDGA moves them for him he gets a ton of free advertising and skips the cost and hassle of mailing them. Of course the PDGA is then in the position of marketing a non-sanctioned event that goes out it's way to slam the PDGA.... Now, I wonder why they wouldn't want to do that?

Not bad points. Still, I hold out hope that his intentions are pure.

Hell froze over.
I agree with jon brakel.

Now if you'd said that you just saw frozen pigs from hell flying over Bevier I might have busted a gut!

[Lyle O Ross]

Sorry, Lyle, but your post is off-base on this (at the very least).

The MSDGC never 'went out of its way to slam the PDGA'. One of the organizers of the event had a very public issue with 'the PDGA', but in no way did the event either claim to be, or pretend to be, "anti PDGA". It was a non-sanctioned event, one of several hundred (thousand, perhaps?) held in the US on an annual basis.

Anyone that honestly claims to wish to 'promote the sport of Disc Golf' would be a lying sack of manure if they claimed that distribution of a MSDGC DVD could not potentially help to 'promote the sport'. Have you seen it? My 60 yr old mother-in-law has seriously considered taking up the sport since she watched all of about 3 minutes of it with my son.

With regard to Marshall Street wishing to move copies of the DVD and gain some potential sales in return, well, of course they would. They would be donating the DVDs with the same greedy self-interest that Innova, Discraft, Gateway, Phenix et al have in mind when they donate products or services. Do you really think Innova donates that much $$ to the USDGC for humanitarian purposes? Wake up and smell the capitalism already.

If 'the PDGA' is truly about 'promoting the sport' of disc golf, and not about petty feuds or 'I am going to take my ball and go home' then I can't see any legitimate reason not to take this offer seriously. In fact, I think not only would they be foolish not to do this, but they should be working their collective asses off to get other potential sponsors on board to create a whopper of a TD pack for each sanctioned event.

If there's a question to be asked about this, it should be, "Why did it take a couple of tree fahmers from Lestah to come up with this idea in the first place?"

While you make some very interesting points Dan, I'm not sure I agree with you. The argument between Jason and the PDGA went well beyond Guru. What you forgot were the posts where it was made clear that Guru was acting under the direction of the PDGA BOD. The issues dealt with payout, drinking at events, and dress code just to name a few. Again, this goes well beyond Jason vs. Guru. Guru just represented the embodiment of the PDGA and it was easy enough for Jason to say I hate Guru rather than admit he wanted the PDGA to play by his rules, and Guru acted as the voice of the PDGA in saying no. (I won't argue that Guru should not have taken Jason's bait and responded in kind, I will only say that if Jason had attacked me similarly I would have given a response similar to Guru's).

Moreso, Jason agreed to stop attacking Guru in his official capicity and could not hold to that agreement. Since Jason is the embodiment (along with Steve Dodge) of the MSDGC it would be hard to argue against the idea that the tournament does not act in the best interests of the PDGA. It is also hard not to argue that Jason was attacking the official representitive of the PDGA.

As for who the PDGA represents, while the PDGA enjoys the benefit of it's "association" with the USDGA, there is no official realationship between Innova and the PDGA, i.e. the PDGA does not openly support or act on the behalf of Innova. Innova has taken what I consider a great marketing tact in building one of the best events (if not the best) in the world. The PDGA surrepticiously gets benefit from that but not at an official level. The USDGA has paid the PDGA to put their logo on the front page of their site and Jason is welcome to do the same if he wishes his event to be similarly promoted.

As for the benefits that Innova receives when it donates to the PDGA, the PDGA evaluates it's worth (i.e. the worth of the PDGA brand) and makes a deal with Innova based on the worth of what Innova donates. Obviously, the PDGA does not feel the worth of DVD based on an unsanctioned tournament that underpins their own postion is high. I would be surprised if they did (actually shocked). The notion that Jason is acting only out of the best interests of disc golf belies his own post on this topic. I do not deny that the PDGA might get "some" value out of his matterials, but I might suggest that Jason and the MSDGC would get more benefit from the relationship than the PDGA would.

As for the notion that Jason was the first to think of this idea... I'm not biting. This marketing tact is as old as the hills and Jason is just jumping onto a well estabilished road. Even the PDGA has sent out promotional matterials of different types, and some of that probably happened long before Jason started playing the sport.

Last points, I have not seen the MSDGC DVD. It might well represent the sport (actually the testamonials are impressive). That is not the same as supporting the PDGA and in fact flies in their face. Should they support Jason at their own expense even if it is for the "good of the sport?" I'm not sure that overall, Jason's view really is for the "good of the sport." Instead of trying to compromise, when he couldn't get an NT on his terms, he made personal attacks on the the head of the PDGA. So, are we to believe that the PDGA is suppossed to buck it up and act for the "good of the sport" and for Jason's benefit when he won't do the same? Seems to be something missing here.

[rhett]

Well written, Lyle. That's how I remember it going down, and I agree with your analysis.

[Luke Butch]

While you make some very interesting points Dan, I'm not sure I agree with you. The argument between Jason and the PDGA went well beyond Guru. What you forgot were the posts where it was made clear that Guru was acting under the direction of the PDGA BOD. The issues dealt with payout, drinking at events, and dress code just to name a few. Again, this goes well beyond Jason vs. Guru. Guru just represented the embodiment of the PDGA and it was easy enough for Jason to say I hate Guru rather than admit he wanted the PDGA to play by his rules, and Guru acted as the voice of the PDGA in saying no. (I won't argue that Guru should not have taken Jason's bait and responded in kind, I will only say that if Jason had attacked me similarly I would have given a response similar to Guru's).


The thing with Jason and Guru began before the MSDGC- National Tour standards debate.

And Guru is NOT the PDGA. He sometimes represents them, but as he eventually admited he was often posting his personal feelings.

[beckyz]

Maybe another option would be to offer to donate the DVDs locally to youth organizations, church groups, or Boy Scouts and Girls Scouts while giving them demonstrations or free clinics. This would visibly promote the sport in the MSDGC area and increase number of players in the region.

The argument between Jason and the PDGA went well beyond Guru. What you forgot were the posts where it was made clear that Guru was acting under the direction of the PDGA BOD. The issues dealt with payout, drinking at events, and dress code just to name a few. Again, this goes well beyond Jason vs. Guru

As Luke mentioned, this happened well before the MSDGC. While Jason did want certain things for his tournaments (i.e. allowing alcohol at lower-tiered events), a large part of his problem was the fact that tour guidelines were being put in place without the consultation/input of the TDs that will be running the events themselves.

And not to say I told you so, but some of the things that Jason wanted, such as lower minimum entry fees, and a relaxation of the original dress code, were changed after this all went down. Hmm......maybe he's not that crazy after all? Ok, he probably is, but even lunatics are allowed brief moments of lucidity I guess.

BTW, the MSDGC was an alcohol-free event. Not that anyone on the fringes of this situation would pay attention to stuff like that of course....

As for the notion that Jason was the first to think of this idea... I'm not biting. This marketing tact is as old as the hills and Jason is just jumping onto a well estabilished road.

Good point. So what was in the last 'TD pack' you saw at a sanctioned event? Yeah, thought so. No one ever claimed that Marshall St invented the idea of the 'freebie'.

Obviously, the PDGA does not feel the worth of DVD based on an unsanctioned tournament that underpins their own postion is high. I would be surprised if they did (actually shocked).

Well, Lyle, now I'm depressed. You seemed so intelligent (well, for a Texan at least). There's nothing 'obvious' about that statement at all. In fact, if I didn't know better, I'd say you were pulling that 'obviously' out of your as[/b]s. Read up the thread to what Steve posted and it would almost seem 'obvious' that the PDGA is on board with the idea.

[Luke Butch]

Maybe another option would be to offer to donate the DVDs locally to youth organizations, church groups, or Boy Scouts and Girls Scouts while giving them demonstrations or free clinics. This would visibly promote the sport in the MSDGC area and increase number of players in the region.

Whoever ends up with the MSDGC at each tournament could doante it if they chose. That idea would benifit Marshall Street(more people see the DVD= more future sales) and DG in general.

[neonnoodle]

Lyle, that is also my understanding of what happened.

Regardless of what happened, Guru has behaved well since, Jason... not so great.

Giving Jason all the credit for the tour standards changes is inaccurate Dan. These have all been hot topics for at least 18 years. It took us 20 years + to get the colared shirts for Majors. Not everyone liked it, but certainlly the majority did, and definitely the Majors TDs wanted it.

Jason and you are acting like the PDGA just forced these changes on everyone, when the truth is We the PDGA wanted them... meaning the membership and organizers.

I don't think we need to choose side here, we just need our friends to start acting like they are not 8 years old.

Lyle, that is also my understanding of what happened.

Then I think you need to use the search feature and reread the appropriate threads.

Giving Jason all the credit for the tour standards changes is inaccurate Dan. These have all been hot topics for at least 18 years. It took us 20 years + to get the colared shirts for Majors. Not everyone liked it, but certainlly the majority did, and definitely the Majors TDs wanted it.

And your proof on the majority wanting the collared shirts is......? Interesting that you didn't comment on the lowering of the minimum entry fee either. Of course, it's much easier to ignore things that you're wrong about, isn't it? While Jason and Steve will surely not get credit for it being lowered, they were the first and most vocal about wanting to see that happen.

Jason and you are acting like the PDGA just forced these changes on everyone, when the truth is We the PDGA wanted them... meaning the membership and organizers.

We? Which 'We' is that Nick? Jason and I were both members when the shi[/b]t hit the fan over this, and while I can't speak for Jason, I know this 'we' didn't want it. Don't put words in other people's mouths, Nick, it's not very polite.

I don't think we need to choose side here, we just need our friends to start acting like they are not 8 years old.

Pot.<=>.Kettle

Maybe another option would be to offer to donate the DVDs locally to youth organizations, church groups, or Boy Scouts and Girls Scouts while giving them demonstrations or free clinics. This would visibly promote the sport in the MSDGC area and increase number of players in the region.

That is a great idea and I will definitely bring it up with Jason.

[Luke Butch]

Nick, you are definitely not a good representative of WHO the PDGA is.

It'll be an excellent DVD, and the current one weighs about 3.6 oz. so it'll most likely weigh under 4 oz.

[neonnoodle]

Dan,

I could tit for tat you til dooms day and you would just slip around every point we could find agreement on because you are looking to disagree rather than agree.

As proof I offer the following:

1) Jason and Brian fueded publicly here and on the NEFA board due directly to insults by Jason towards Brian and the PDGA.

2) As Jason and David Gentry were working things out so that the MSDGC could be a part of the PDGA tour, Jason continued his ill-advised tirades against Brian and the PDGA resulting in a suspension of his membership.

3) Lowering Entry fees- if you think Jason came up with that all on his own then you are more ignorant of our larger disc golf scene than I thought. It has been a hot topic since before you even threw a golf disc. Thing is the PDGA can only make recommendations, TDs set the final entry fees. Jason just whined and cried louder during that specific fight. He in no way came up with it on his own nor was the sole person behind it's eventual acceptance. John Biscoe, Dan Doyle and a majority of NT and A Tier TDs had more to do with it than Jason.

4) Jason seems now, though it is not certain from his words here or elsewhere, that he wants to join the PDGA effort to promote disc golf. If so than that represents a significant shift in his positions.

5) I understand you defending your friend Dan. Thing is he f ed up, and now he has to deal with the consequences. He attacked the work and people who are the friends of many many PDGA members, and we, like you, reserve the right to call him out on the carpet for it.

6) When and if he ever provides a serious and heartfelt apology to all those he has bashed in his broad and random attacks I will most definitely be one of the folks to welcome him back into the fold and support his efforts to promote disc golf. Even if I don't agree with everything he does; the difference will be that he won't speak or act from a position of "us" vs "them" on worldwide disc golf promotional issues. It will just be an "us".

Spin away. But these are in essence the sum total of what is going on with Jason.

[bruce_brakel]

So I was talking to a TD this weekend about the increase in non-member fees. He brought up the subject. He said something like, "I don't think my non-member recs and intermediates will pay another dollar. If the PDGA goes to $8 I just won't bother sanctioning the lower divisions." He was also a little "urinated" off that the PDGA would do something like that without getting any kind of reality check from the TDs who run a lot of events.

So I went and looked at the stats. From his events the difference between $5 and $8 is a loss in income of about $1000. Not only does the PDGA lose the $8 per non-member but it also loses the $3 for every lower division player.

I can understand the PDGA not consulting him. He does not appear as the TD of record for most of his events. But when you have a TD who collected $3,000+ over the course of a season in $2, $3 and $5 fees from rec and intermediate players, and he is the TD of record for all of his events and he is the one actually sending you the check every time, it is strange that he would learn about this for the first time on a message board.

[ck34]

Until you get the actual tour documents, reading Board minutes and assuming that's the final plan can be misleading. Many players, TDs, Competition Committee and those on here have had a chance to comment thru the normal process from the time the Board met at the Summit to completing the documents.

[tpozzy]

We just voted to keep the non-member/non-current member fee at $5.

Theo Pozzy
PDGA Commissioner

[rhett]

We just voted to keep the non-member/non-current member fee at $5.

Theo Pozzy
PDGA Commissioner

Nice job, Theo. I think the PDGA BOD is doing a fine job.

[Moderator005]

We just voted to keep the non-member/non-current member fee at $5.

Theo Pozzy
PDGA Commissioner

Thank goodness!