Soft Caps

[bruce_brakel]

This is an idea I have been thinking about. Currently we have hard caps on the intermediate and rec divisions. If you are over the rating cap you must move up. What would members think about soft caps on the Advanced divisions, namely Advanced Men, Advanced Women and Am Masters? The idea would be that if you are rated above a certain number, most logically the same number we are using for "Pros Play Am," you can no longer compete for a payout in that amateur division at B, C and D tier events. You get to pay the "true-am" entry fee if you want to play in that division for points and trophies. Or you can play in a division with a cap that is higher than your rating, or you can play pro.

It seems to me that this is consistant with the direction our format is evolving. It is fair to any player who has a legitimate reason for not moving up. It would only have a bearing on a small number of players.

[ck34]

Minnesota has been a backer of the "trophy only" option for Ams playing in Pro (all ages) but it's currently not a promoted option by the PDGA. We have been allowing Ams to play in Pro for trophies only in MN events at 1/3 the Pro entry fee. Adding the soft cap suggestion would just be one step farther in this direction.

[cbdiscpimp]

You CANT force anyone to play pro and you also CANT take away the payout they would recieve for playing in the highest amature division available. In any other sport if someone just wants to dominate the amature division they are allowed to.

This would be completely and utter BS if they decided to do this. We would be the only sport in the world who FORCED people to become proffesionals and that is just NOT FAIR AT ALL.

[tbender]

Do those dominating other Amateur venues make anything near what we do?

Until we start weaning ourselves off of the plastic, I have no problem forcing people to choose to play pro or play for trophies.

[cbdiscpimp]

My dad is playing in a AMATURE ball golf tournament this weekend and JUST for entering they are getting the newest callaway club on the market and the have a chance to win up to i believe 700 dollars in merchandise. They also get a nice dinner i believe ALL three nites of the tournament. Then an awards banquet the last night.

I would say thats a little better then what we get at tournaments.

You can force anyone to turn pro. You just CANT DO IT. I would stop being a member of the PDGA if they ever decided to FORCE people to turn pro. I also believe alot of other people would do the same thing.

[idahojon]

In other sports, you can dominate the amateur ranks if you wish, but you don't get payout like you do in disc golf. You get a trophy and a handshake, maybe an embroidered jacket. Even in our sister sport ball golf, it is stated in the association rules what limits of merchandise you can accept.

The day may come soon enough when disc golf matures to where Pros compete for cash and Ams for trophies and a handshake. No plastic. No baskets. Will you be ready? Take your pick.

Will you be willing to play for a really good players pack and trophies?

[cbdiscpimp]

John did you just read my post or not???

My dad competes on the amature level of our sister sport and have for many many years. They DO NOT and i repeat DO NOT just get a trophy and a handshake. These tournaments have great prizes and you almost ALWAYS get something great just for playing in them.

[ck34]

What you're saying then is you'd be fine if everyone in Advanced got a really nice player pack equal to the entry fee value (or better) and just trophies like ball golf. I think that's what we're talking about for trophy only play. The entry fees could vary but the money would primarily go toward the value of the player pack and the meals included for everyone. That sounds like the parallel with BG.

[20460chase]

I agree with Pimp.Its not fair to force anyone to play in a division they dont feel they belong in.Sand bagging has been made acceptible on the highest Am level.I dont understand how you can say its ok for a lower rated player that has previously played open to fall back to advanced.I am curious to hear grumblings form the ADV players who lost a tourney to a player who has played open but has a rating that allows him to play advanced.I dont think it will happen much since most top level advanced players could compete in open, yet want to sandbag and take home stacks of plastic instead of becoming mediocre.You cant blame the people that are on the fine line and now will keep playing ADV to try to win a AM title.Allowing players with a near 1000 rating to play ADV in the largest tourney of the year opened the door to years of bagging.Regarding Am payouts, I think its stupid to play for just a trophy,Ams should be paid in plastic if they play open and want to retain AM status.They should pay what the pros pay just not recieving cash.That way borderline am/pros can compete in the open division and not walk away empty handed in the event they should cash.I understand that this was the principal for Pro2 { I think?} but I played at no tourneys where this was offered.Id play open for plastic until I thiught I could compete for cash and am sure many others would.Although,despite the extra money added in pro, im sure Pros would ***** and moan about having to play with non-world class players and how they sucked up thier game, unless of course they won.

[rhett]

I guess you missed the part where twice he mentioned that his dad plays amatuer ball golf tourneys and gets great player packs and a merch payout to go with the trophy.

[cbdiscpimp]

Thanks Rhett

[ck34]

Oh yeah, I forgot. Since we're looking at equivalents here, I think it would be perfectly fine if our Advanced players also won prizes whose value was based on the same percentage to our pro prizes as the am prizes are to pro prizes in ball golf.

[cbdiscpimp]

So your saying that if the entry fee is 65 bucks then im going to get 65 in plastic and what not before i even play and THEN your going to pay me out for placing well also. Sounds like a good idea to me.

How do you propose you will do this???

[rhett]

Oh yeah, I forgot. Since we're looking at equivalents here, I think it would be perfectly fine if our Advanced players also won prizes whose value was based on the same percentage to our pro prizes as the am prizes are to pro prizes in ball golf.

I love the Nick-esque way you change the subject to an unrelated and previously un-discussed tangent whenever the debate isn't going your way.

[20460chase]

If there was no advanced tourney payouts then there would be no tourneys.Id rather play leauges then pay 15$ for some stupid trophy.Show the ADV division some respect.

[idahojon]

Steve,

Here's a handle. Go ahead and feel free to fly off it whenever you like.

You use the example of ball golf. What about softball, bowling, rodeo, skiing, or any other sport that people compete in on an amateur basis? Trophies, trophies, trophies and a good time. You wanna win something more? Then go Pro.

No one ever said that anyone was going to be forced to "go Pro." Bruce was merely suggesting an alternative.

What's going to happen to you if Michigan ever enforces its gambling laws in regard to disc golf tournaments? Are you going to move to another state? That's kinda like your reaction to this suggestion. "I'm gonna quit the PDGA!"

BTW. I did read your post. I was replying to your first post as you were blasting away with "Daddy's scenario" and they crossed paths.

Hope you find a ride. It's a long way from Vegas to Phoenix. And there's rattlesnakes.

[cbdiscpimp]

Exactly. People would just start throwing their own unsanctioned tournys that had CASH payouts and the PDGA would suffer. Im sure as hell not going to pay 150 to play Open in a NT event that I KNOW I WONT CASH at but i will however pay 65 to play an A Tier in Advanced but not if there is no payout.

This would be the worst decision on the list of bad decisions by the PDGA. The list would be as follows
Pros playing in AM
No AM payouts
2 Meter rule
then a bunch of other random unimportant stupid things.

[cbdiscpimp]

Steve,

Here's a handle. Go ahead and feel free to fly off it whenever you like.

You use the example of ball golf. What about softball, bowling, rodeo, skiing, or any other sport that people compete in on an amateur basis? Trophies, trophies, trophies and a good time. You wanna win something more? Then go Pro.

No one ever said that anyone was going to be forced to "go Pro." Bruce was merely suggesting an alternative.

What's going to happen to you if Michigan ever enforces its gambling laws in regard to disc golf tournaments? Are you going to move to another state? That's kinda like your reaction to this suggestion. "I'm gonna quit the PDGA!"

BTW. I did read your post. I was replying to your first post as you were blasting away with "Daddy's scenario" and they crossed paths.

Hope you find a ride. It's a long way from Vegas to Phoenix. And there's rattlesnakes.

Actually i would just play in tournaments outside of MI or i would move to another state where i could play tournaments that had payouts. I would prolly move to NC as much as i hate to say that. Thats not flying off the handle. I would not renew my membership with the PDGA if there was no amature payout.

By the way Bowling is completely different because they have diff divisions of PRO that you can play in and still win money. All we have is the OPEN division. If we had a division just below the open Division that i had an choice to play in like say a 950-980 rated division where i feel that i could compete and have a chane to win cash then i would play in that division but with the amount of tournaments i play im sure as HELL will not just jump into the OPEN division and play against Cam Todd and Shweb and Kenny and Barry and Brinster and McCoy when i KNOW i cant compete with them.

That is not flying off the handle. Its how i feel and the truth. If they got rid of AM payouts i would not renew my membership to the PDGA and i think there are others that feel the same way i do.

[ck34]

Not changing the subject at all. The Am payouts in ball golf are capped at some level which I thought was $500 but I haven't checked whether inflation has boosted that number. It's a small number compared with payouts for their pros. You also have the nature of equipment requirements in each sport. If being able to include equipment like a club in their player packs makes sense, it would only make sense for us to include a disc in ours. By golly we do. If they win clubs for prizes, by golly our players should win a disc or two. And they do, but much, much more, too.

[jefferson]

I would prolly move to NC

god help us.... i am suddenly overcome by waves of nausea.

[ck34]

All we have is the OPEN division. If we had a division just below the open Division that i had an choice to play in like say a 950-980 rated division where i feel that i could compete and have a chane to win cash then i would play in that division

Ah, but we do have that division and they currently win plastic coins. I don't think the PDGA will ever take away the option to win prizes and merchandise in that 915-955 range. There are too many players there who love it and it helps with the event finance structure that's been built up. However, just like your bowling example, if you played in that second level division for a while and your average got high enough, are you saying you would quit bowling if you had to move up?

I think that's what the soft cap idea is saying. You need to move up or just play for trophies once your skill gets to a certain level.

My dad is playing in a AMATURE ball golf tournament this weekend

What's the entry fee? I assume that covers cart and greens. Add those if not.

[cbdiscpimp]

Not changing the subject at all. The Am payouts in ball golf are capped at some level which I thought was $500 but I haven't checked whether inflation has boosted that number. It's a small number compared with payouts for their pros. You also have the nature of equipment requirements in each sport. If being able to include equipment like a club in their player packs makes sense, it would only make sense for us to include a disc in ours. By golly we do. If they win clubs for prizes, by golly our players should win a disc or two. And they do, but much, much more, too.

The thing is they pay 400 to play in this tournament. Then they get a 400 dollar club and im sure some balls and tees and what not. THEN they can win upto i think now its $700 in merchandise so essentialy if they win they can receive $1100 dollars in merchandise.

So now lets do a disc golf tournament. I pay 65 dollars to enter. You guys give me 65 in discs. Then i play and win. So i win 113.75 dollars since 400 goes into 700 1.75 times. So then i could receive $178.75 AND lunch and an awards banquet AND a kick ***** trophy. Other then the tournaments where the top pay out is a basket i dont think i have EVER won that much in merch. I dont even think i got that much merch for 21st place at WORLDS. I would have to say that we dont even pay out as much as amature ball golf does

My dad is playing in a AMATURE ball golf tournament this weekend and JUST for entering they are getting the newest callaway club on the market and the have a chance to win up to i believe 700 dollars in merchandise. They also get a nice dinner i believe ALL three nites of the tournament. Then an awards banquet the last night.

I would say thats a little better then what we get at tournaments.

You can force anyone to turn pro. You just CANT DO IT. I would stop being a member of the PDGA if they ever decided to FORCE people to turn pro. I also believe alot of other people would do the same thing.

Really? A free club? The newest Calloway Driver out is the Big Bertha Titanium 454 Driver, which goes for a little over 300, pretty nice layer's pack for an ameteur golf tournament, wich we had some of those around here

That'd be like everyone at a C-Teir getting a 2001 USDGC CE Roc in their player's pack! I wouldn't mind that!

[cbdiscpimp]

god help us.... i am suddenly overcome by waves of nausea.

Whats the matter Jeff. You afraid ill PIMP on your hoes and your have some more competition on the courses down there

By the way thanks for the 20 bucks that you paid me for whipping you at worlds

[jefferson]

and your have some more competition on the courses down there

no, just that having you and mTl in the same state would be, to say mildly, overwhelming. it would be like a turd covered in burning animal hair.... you're nostrils have been trained to withstand the pooh somewhat, but the burning hair on top of it would be too much. [img]/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

By the way thanks for the 20 bucks that you paid me for whipping you at worlds

no problem, too bad i didn't bet you at bowling green last year. i could have just bet you a $1 for every place i beat you by.

[cbdiscpimp]

no problem, too bad i didn't bet you at bowling green last year. i could have just bet you a $1 for every place i beat you by.

That would have been alot of money

You CANT force anyone to play pro and you also CANT take away the payout they would recieve for playing in the highest amature division available. In any other sport if someone just wants to dominate the amature division they are allowed to.

This would be completely and utter BS if they decided to do this. We would be the only sport in the world who FORCED people to become proffesionals and that is just NOT FAIR AT ALL.

In college I had a roommate whose boyfriend was an in-line speed skater (before I had even heard of in-line skates) in California. He also played hockey for a college (not in California). After he won the biggest yearly Amateur race he was forced to turn pro. He opted to drop out of in-line racing since hockey was paying his tuition. I know this is just annecdotal information, but I know that not every sport lets everyone play at the amateur level indefintely.

[20460chase]

At Worlds, your funny money was worth even less, since you had to pay extra for using it.I bought a 25$ disc on Friday at the BBQ, then paid 30$ for almost the same disc, because I was using funny money.After bringing this up I recieved a voice mail on my personal cell from Todd Briener to explain how I actually got paid more than I should have.If I couldve used my funny money at Walgreens Id have gotten a better deal and they are over retail.Its not like the PDGA, disc dealers and clubs dont benefit from large advanced payouts, considering in most cases you are actually paying more for the plastic you win, as oppossed to outright paying for it.I have been at more than one tourney where the organizers charged you more for the plastic they paid out.A 60$ payout equals 4 champion discs at most tournaments, and I have no problem with that as long as the money is going to the club, but I would never pay 15$ for a disc if I was using cash, and in very few places would I expect too.