What's the hardest course you've played?

[lowe]

Overall World Class Par for each hole and the total course should never change.

Jeff,

Where do you get WCP info for courses?
Did the table you posted come from the CDGC site Excel spreahsheet? If so, who set the WCP for each hole? Dave M indicated it was set mainly by Stan.

IMHO I find it crazy that Gold 10 is a par 5, yet Gold 18-Long is par 4! On Gold 10 my throws were-- 200' drive with a Roc that just missed the gap, 150' mediocre Roc into trees, a 40 ft dink out of a stymied lie, a good 150' uphill tomahawk that parked under the basket for my drop in par 5. I was surprised to find that I had parred it. On Gold 18 the best I could possibly ever do would be a 6 if I threw all shots perfectly and hit all landing areas (but I've got a noodle arm, so I accept I won't score as well on long holes.)

[Moderator005]

Lowe,

Yes that table came from the CDGC site Excel spreadsheet. I had assumed those pars were from WCP data, maybe they are not!

The WCP for each hole is assigned based on which integer par number is closest to SSA. Holes with SSA values less than 2.5 are Par 2. Holes with SSA between 2.6 and 3.4 are Par 3. Holes with SSA from 3.6 to 4.4 are Par 4 and over 4.5 are Par 5.

Based on your description, it sounds like hole 18 Gold should be a par 5. I've never played Renny, but unless it was severely downhill the whole way, any 1000 foot hole usually is a par 5.

[ck34]

Part of the problem is that some holes reached in two throws or three throws can be par 4s. In the first case, the scoring average for a 1000 rated player might be 3.7 and the other it might be 4.4, but they are both Par 4s. Stan might have felt the scoring average on Gold 18 still fell below 4.5.

[dave_marchant]

Based on your description, it sounds like hole 18 Gold should be a par 5. I've never played Renny, but unless it was severely downhill the whole way, any 1000 foot hole usually is a par 5.

FYI, the way Renny is currently set up is that 18 is in the B position. See this map for the layout. The 18B position will not be used much any more since it conflicts with the Gold 2 fairway.

The set up as it is in now (18B) is ~1000 ft (Stan does not remembering measuring it), and Stan told me it should be par 4 (which I have a hard time accepting too). The 18 Gold length is 774', par 4.

[MTL21676]

absolutly no question - Renny

My first memory of Renny is walking up to hole 1, seeing that it was a someone tight fairway, coming out of a tunnel, and 377 with the pin gaurded by trees and a hill....not to mention a huge rock near the top of that hill, OB right and long, and some nasty stuff left.......I remember thinking "holy crap, I'll be happy w/ a 3" when I walked up to this tee.......as i tapped in on 18 and 63 throws later, my thought was man you got to get hole 1 - thats a birdie hole

[dannyreeves]

absolutly no question - Renny

My first memory of Renny is walking up to hole 1, seeing that it was a someone tight fairway, coming out of a tunnel, and 377 with the pin gaurded by trees and a hill....not to mention a huge rock near the top of that hill, OB right and long, and some nasty stuff left.......I remember thinking "holy crap, I'll be happy w/ a 3" when I walked up to this tee.......as i tapped in on 18 and 63 throws later, my thought was man you got to get hole 1 - thats a birdie hole

That is funny.

[MTL21676]

funny, but true - i was dead serious

[dannyreeves]

funny, but true - i was dead serious

I bet.

Anyone ever played Sipapu,NM ? It's a Beautiful, hard as heck 20 holer,up on the ski runs and it's hosted some great tourneys,too.

[lowe]

Robert,

I can really appreciate what you shared about Renny. A 63 is a pretty good round there. One does battle with that course. I assume you were playing an earlier version of the Original course.

I've got a question. Were you comparing your 63 to the standard par of 54 or were you gauging it against a par of 60 (or 58, 59)?
If was in relation to 54, how would you have felt about your round if it was compared to 60 (or 58 at the minimum)?

As for me, I feel much better about a +3 than a +9.

[chris]

Renny Gold, Idlewild, and the old Ozark Mountain course are the 3 hardest I've played, I think they all play around the same score wise.

[xterramatt]

Renny Gold, Toboggan (sheer gruel factor), and then another sheer gruel factor with awesome holes, Gran Canyon in Brooksville.

I played Renny Gold tonight, and before my round I told myself I wouldn't let my head mess with my game. I had a great round of 70. Thimk about that a minute... A great round of SEVENTY. Sure, I screwed up on hole one missing my putt that would have put me in the 60s, but I had a great round.

Hole 1 long, 4
Hole 2 long, 3
Hole 3 short (Iwent for a birdie putt through "the vines" 3
Hole 4 Loooong circle 6. I threw a beautiful sidearm for what looked like a putt to get a 4, but my disc stood up and rolled OB.
Hole 5 Long 4, using an aviar and an aero (I'm starting to figure out my strengths and weaknesses here....
Hole 6 normal 4. I hate this stupid straightforward hole.
Hole 7 short 4.
Hole 8 only position 3
Hole 9 missed a stupid 15 footer for birdie. 3
Hole 10 LONG 3. I 3ed this hole!!!!! WOO HOO!!!! Aero up the gap, then a big Hyzered Orc. The virtual tour... and yes, it's ALL uphill.
Hole 11 (1000+ft) 4. Yeah, I got a 4 finally, and it's less hard than I thought.
Hole 12 long 4. bad upshot after a great drive. left it a little short.
Hole 13 (974ft) 6. This hole is one of the world's greatest holes. you must check it out now that it has had a chance to become more than a ripped apart path through the trees.
Hole 14 normal 4 (a beautiful Roc drive landed me in the perfect spot for a 3, but I hit a cedar a little early.
Hole 15 normal 3.
Hole 16 normal 2. I finally got a 2 on this sucker, now that I figured out the hyzer route.
Hole 17 normal 5. I always get around the corner, but I overshoot my landing zone. Every durn time. Good hole.
Hole 18 long to long 5. I had a chance at a 4. my second shot put me on the second plateau, but I had a bad upshot, even with 2 great drives, my upshot was daunting none the less. This is no par 4. There is just no way. A 4 would have been a miracle and I was ripping drives left and right.

I have a love hate relationship with Renny. I think that is what you get when it is the toughest course you have played.

Renny takes the phrase good shots are rewarded, bad shots are punished to a whole new level. It is the Hell-bent Catholic Nun with an Attitude of Disc Golf courses.

[dave_marchant]

What a segue, Matt (and it wasn’t even planned)! I have just completed to a presentable point the “Be The Disc!” Virtual Video Tour of Renaissance Pro Players Course. For those of you who want to see for yourselves what Matt (and others are talking about), click here and then navigate to the Renny page. Enjoy….hope you have high speed internet!

[MTL21676]

Robert,

I can really appreciate what you shared about Renny. A 63 is a pretty good round there. One does battle with that course. I assume you were playing an earlier version of the Original course.

I've got a question. Were you comparing your 63 to the standard par of 54 or were you gauging it against a par of 60 (or 58, 59)?
If was in relation to 54, how would you have felt about your round if it was compared to 60 (or 58 at the minimum)?

As for me, I feel much better about a +3 than a +9.

Sorry for the slow answer Lowe - this thread kind of fell out of my mind and didn't follow it


I tend to look at holes as par 4s and 5s whether or not people call it that or not. I'm like you, when I realized I had shot 63, I though man thats not good at all, but I was looking at is as a par 60.

I've found that looking at holes not in terms or par three, but probably what they are, helps my mental game a lot...

When i play a course like Jacksonville, thats a par 57
Cedar Hills - par 56
Zeb- Par 57


It has helped my mental game so much

Hole 18 long to long 5. I had a chance at a 4. my second shot put me on the second plateau, but I had a bad upshot, even with 2 great drives, my upshot was daunting none the less. This is no par 4. There is just no way. A 4 would have been a miracle and I was ripping drives left and right.

Nice 5 after missing the mando.

[lowe]

I played Renny Gold tonight, ...I had a great round of 70. Thimk about that a minute... A great round of SEVENTY...

Matt,
In the current layout par at Renny should be 69. So 1 over par is a great round, especially at Renaissance. Shooting par should be a great accomplishment. It sounds like you've got a good solid game, so it seems that par at Renny is set pretty fairly. I think that par should be a standard that someone of your skill level can only attain with an excellent round.

I'm finally becoming enlightened after 6 years of play on over 115 courses (some people are slow learners). As I said earlier course difficulty needs to be measured in relation to par, not relative to 54. Until I played Renny recently i always measured difficulty based on my score in relation to 54, not par. One result is that I've downgraded Renny's difficulty rating in my course evaluations database.

I know it's been discussed ad nauseum, but I strongly believe that disc golf needs objective standards for par. That has to take into consideration not just length, but hole configurations. There seems to have been movement in that direction, and I know it's tough with a growing almost all volunteer organization.

Now I need to go back an re-evaluate every course I've played for the difficulty relative to par. In that light one of the toughest courses in NC is Green Pines in Knightdale. I count it as a par 28 nine holer, and my average is +8 for nine holes. Hole 8 is one of the toughest holes in the whole state of NC.

[lowe]

...Hole 10 LONG 3. I 3ed this hole!!!!! WOO HOO!!!! Aero up the gap, then a big Hyzered Orc...

Matt,
Nice Eagle!! Did your Aero make it all the way through the tunnel to clearing at the end (near basket 14) so that you could throw a clear hyzer over the junk to the basket? If so, that's an awesome shot to get a drive that far!

[dave_marchant]

Matt,
In the current layout par at Renny should be 69.

Actually, par as set up now is 67 - see the Current Config spreadsheets on Renny's page on www.charlottedgc.com

I agree that 18 in the B position (looooong - past holly bushes) should be a 5 (I have emailed Stan to re-check his thinking), so par should maybe at 68. That collar will be removed soon and that position eliminated since it is right on the fairway of 2 Gold.

But a 70 is a great score. A 3 on 10 Gold is insane - talking about threading the needle twice in a row!

[xterramatt]

Matt,
Nice Eagle!! Did your Aero make it all the way through the tunnel to clearing at the end (near basket 14) so that you could throw a clear hyzer over the junk to the basket? If so, that's an awesome shot to get a drive that far!

With a little help froma tailwind my Aero just cleared the rightside of the fairway and just floated and floated, about 30 feet shy of the landing zone. All I wanted was to keep it in the center so I could have an easy layup to the zone. Once I'd had a chance to absorb what an awesome shot it was (the first shot is hard for a lefty) I decided to go for it, and sent an Orc on a high Hyzer route missing a branch by a few inches, and landed on the left side of the green, just over the ridge in the gulley that sort of catches water. I only had about a 25 footer to make, which was 10 feet more than the birdie shot I missed on the previous hole.It really was an exciting moment. SiBlais had by far the best drive I have ever seen, he was AT the zone, and threw a thumber that looked perfect, but put him 40 feet past. It's a really hard upshot to judge because there IS NO FAIRWAY. It's up and over or nothing. so distance is harder to judge.

Duncan Lake - Oklahoma

Hunter Creek- Tulsa......... the first 5 holes are in a forest!!! tricky tricky...... hard to par!

[dannyreeves]

Duncan Lake - Oklahoma

Hunter Creek- Tulsa......... the first 5 holes are in a forest!!! tricky tricky...... hard to par!

Hunter Creek? Is that a hybrid of Hunter Park and Haikey Creek?

BTW, has anyone beat my record at Haikey?

lol my bad.......... hunter park.......... happy now???

[johnrock]

Sipapu is a great course, and some really good tournaments happen there. Tough 20 holes, but all can be done in 2 shots. Very hard to do 'em all in one round though, those steep slopes, big trees, and cool vistas make it hard to string those birdies together. We had a great time at their Ice Bowl this year (has anyone else tried to play a 1500 foot downhill hole on a SNOWBOARD?) Did anyone notice the picture of LLoyd and Olive(Sipapu's original owners) in the Ice Bowl article in the latest DGWN?

[eddie_ogburn]

absolutly no question - Renny

My first memory of Renny is walking up to hole 1, seeing that it was a someone tight fairway, coming out of a tunnel, and 377 with the pin gaurded by trees and a hill....not to mention a huge rock near the top of that hill, OB right and long, and some nasty stuff left.......I remember thinking "holy crap, I'll be happy w/ a 3" when I walked up to this tee.......as i tapped in on 18 and 63 throws later, my thought was man you got to get hole 1 - thats a birdie hole

Rob don't lie. I was there. 63 is what I shot. You shot so high you didn't even keep up with it. Somewhere in the 80's.

I'd have to vote for Patapsco of the courses I've played. Long, varied, beautiful, it's the most difficult and my favorite...thus far. But has anyone else played Trophy Lakes in Charleston, SC? Not quite as long, but almost and lots of water and weird, fun challenges. I threw my highest score ever there...until the next time I played Patapsco.

[quickdisc]

I'd have to vote for Patapsco of the courses I've played. Long, varied, beautiful, it's the most difficult and my favorite...thus far. But has anyone else played Trophy Lakes in Charleston, SC? Not quite as long, but almost and lots of water and weird, fun challenges. I threw my highest score ever there...until the next time I played Patapsco.

I don't think this is the hardest course , but hard on the plastic. Papago in Arizona. That course will make your stable driver into a roller in no time. Just grind it !!

papago is very hard on plastic. i've had difficult tourney rounds in tokyo, 150 plastic, high wind and that larry guy from B.C. always trying to make my score go higher. the original ox bow course in indiana was very hard to play, right and left 90 degree turns in the same fairway because shots were designed specifically so "good" players didn't have an advantage over newbies.

texas courses were the hardest on my eyes and feet. fire ants are a bitc h.

Veteran's Park in Arlington TX----Man that course used to be monsterous--It still is hard but the first setup---Years ago was really tough after it was first installed

[coda_hatfield]

Circle R Ranch in San Saba, Tx. 3 of the longest course that you will proably ever play Meandering Greenbelt, Strawbale Field, and the River, all of them close to 10,000ft long each. Also some of the most beautiful course i have ever seen.

[eddie_ogburn]

Circle R Ranch in San Saba, Tx. 3 of the longest course that you will proably ever play Meandering Greenbelt, Strawbale Field, and the River, all of them close to 10,000ft long each. Also some of the most beautiful course i have ever seen.

Long doesn't equal hard.