What's the hardest course you've played?

[terrycalhoun]

Willow Metropark between Detroit and Ann Arbor, Michigan. For me, at least, it's several strokes tougher than even the Toboggan or the Monster. Long, narrow, twisting, narrow holes with thick underbrush and a low ceiling.

Chris you did your job. You riled everyone up! LL

[Sharky]

Hardest: Paw Paw
New Favorite: Paw Paw
Old Favorite, now #2: PawTapsco (Chris how DARE YOU !)
Hometown fun: Calvert Road (jg in the house)
Best newish course: Rockburn

Bengal Ridge, Pocatello, Idaho.

We're up on the side of a mountain in the sagebrush and junipers. The wind is blowing 30 mph. It is 95 degrees (this is supposed to be the cool mountains). No cloud cover. A lot of up and down elevation changes. The course is tick-infested. You get relief from the cactii (sp?) so as not to hurt your feet when you throw. A couple holes go over some nasty ravines. Having your disc go sailing off the side of the mountain is a possibility. It is a championship caliber course, but not much fun for newbies. I was lucky to come off the mountain, I almost couldn't walk the last couple holes. Water was on every thrid hole, but that still wasn't enough. We played two 18 hole rounds, and each took 3 hours to complete. Not a good first impression of the course.

Naturally, it would have been more fun if I wasn't so out of shape!

[pterodactyl]

Discwood at Kirkwood is awesome! It's not for the meek.

Hardest...toss up between Paw Paw, Pawtapsco (long to C) and Warwick (Animal long). Shooting in the mid-sixties for 18 holes is very solid. Shooting in the fifties is hot. 9 extra holes at Paw Paw gives it the edge. Can't wait to go back next year!!


Most crowded...Morley Field

Check out Kenny's website, he has Patapsco listed as one of his favorites.


DD

[bschweberger]

What about Rock Hill Gold Course

[Moderator005]

Hardest: The Woodshed, Paw Paw, WV
Longest: The Woodshed, Paw Paw, WV
Shortest: Dunham Park, Liberty Corners, NJ
Easiest: Dunham Park, Liberty Corners, NJ
Worst: the new Jordan Creek, Whitehall, PA
Best: Warwick Town Park, Warwick, NY
Windiest: Brandywine Creek SP, Wilmington, DE
Softest: Cape Henlopen, Lewes, DE
Trashiest: Sedgely Woods, Philadelphia, PA
Rockiest: South Mountain Park, Bethlehem, PA
Grassiest: Tinicum Park, Erwinna, PA
Wateriest: Amelia Earhart Park, Miami, FL
Hilliest: Camp Horseshoe, Orefield, PA
Silliest: Baker Farm, Chili, NY
Dumbest: Tyler SP, Newtown, PA

It's great there are so many subjective opinions about what is the hardest course.

It's also indicative that there aren't any reasonably objective DG standards about what makes a hard DG course.

BG has slope measurements to determine what makes a "hard" course. The slope is the difference between scratch play and bogey play.

If there were such standards, then minimally such a discussion might be limited to what's the most challenging 120 slope course you've played, what's the most fun 130 slope course you've played..., etc.

The hardest DG course I've ever played is the Seattle's Woodland Park Y course. It was perhaps DGs first honest Par 72 course -- only three players ever broke par. It also possibly had the highest slope of any DG course, to this day.

For those few DGers brave enough to challenge their game with a totally natural version of the sport (instead of the heavily merchandized basket targets), Y trees required you to throw thru Y trees to hole out (either way works -- a stick can be used to define more challenging Ys). This all means you had to reasonably decent tee shots to get a chance at a precise approach shots, just to get a good putt, and missing a putt frequently wasn't a prelude for a simple drop in, just another challenging putt -- more like BG. A Y tree rates a 16 in catching difficulty -- pole hole 4.

The only available natural Y tree course I'm currently aware of is at Lake Stevens, which has baskets that follow a Y course layout. The Y course record is 53 (19 holes) at 3900 ft, 5 more than the Designer Target record (49), which is probably about 4 strokes tougher than a chain hole target at the same course (45?).

A newbie pro does well to break par on the Designer baskets -- white tees.

Last month a visiting Master Pro played at a casual club event (he finished in the top 20 at this year's World's played a couple rounds) -- As I recall, he scored a credible -2 (54) on the blue tees. His comment was "my game would improve if I played on these targets every day".

[rickb]

The question was the hardest, not the longest or steepest or windiest or blah blah blah...

Truth of the matter is, the hardest course in this country belongs to Charlotte, NC. It's name is Renaissance. Length? Got it. Elevation? Got lots of that too. Tight fairways lined with some of the thickest nastiest shule you could only imagine? Oh yeah we got that. 18 holes that would be signature holes on any other course in this country? Got that!!

Don't want to believe me? Take a look for yourself http://www.charlottedgc.com/renaissance.htm

[morgan]

Hardest: North Calais, Vermont

[dsglfnpool]

Renaissance is a great course but it has nothing on Paw Paw for hardest (imho)

[Chris Hysell]

I guess everyone will vote on their course being the best in one way or another. To think that Renaissance is the hardest is just crazy. To me, Hornets Nest is harder. I have shot some terrible rounds at the Nest and have always posted good scores at Renny. Recently, Wheetie said that hole 8 at Renny was the hardest hole in NC. The biggest number that I have ever recorded on that hole in tournament play is a 3 and I'm not that good of a golfer.

The hardest course, to my thinking, would be that for which WCP is highest compared to Pro Par.

So far, to my knowledge, this title goes to Winthrop Gold 2001, which had a WCP of around 70, while having a Pro Par of 68 (or possibly lower if you belong to the Par 2 crowd).

Renny in all long would be a Pro Par 60 at the lowest. I don't know what the WCP is for that config, but I'd guess in the mid to high 50's.

Moody's Blue tees have a Pro Par of 61, while the WCP is around 57 or 58.

I'd be happy to figure WCP for individual rounds of any A-Tier course if somebody would like to offer up a suggested Pro Par for some of the "harder" ones.

rodney

Or any non-A-Tier course for which tournament data is available.

rodney

[bschweberger]

Thanks for the back up Rodney. It means alot coming from the statmaster himelf.

Um. I would have to say Ozark Mt. in vichy MO. Course par is 70, course record is 64 (to the best of my knowledge). Easily the most difficult course I have ever seen, playing up, down and around a small mountain. Many tight holes with extreme elevation changes. Ravines, ponds, etc. Hole #11 is an insane 800 ft hole what has woods on left and right with a good 100ft drop within the first 300 ft of the hole. Dave McCormick has definately created a disc golf monster of a course!

Using MPO, FPO, and M1O and the first two rounds from the Ozark tournament in April of this year, I get WCPs of 67.82 and 67.66.

I'm assuming that those 3 divisions played the same course the first 2 rounds, but I don't know that.

WCP 68 on a Par 70. Not bad. Especially if it doesn't use any artificial OB, which I'm guessing it doesn't.

(For stat freaks, if I use only the 16 MPO players with ratings, I get 67.76 and 68.10. My congratulations to Roger, as I think that's pretty consistent.)

rodney

[jackinkc]

We all played the same courses that weekend. So your numbers are correct. Lets not forget about the the 5-hyzer hole there either....Started there, should have put the bag in the car and started the campfire.

Tough course, shot my highest round there. I am working on getting a tough jobby here in Blue Valley Park, and I think that you will all enjoy it. It will be like Water Works on Steroids. We don't have mountains in KC, but we do have elevation changes as our terrain is nice for that, until you start heading west.

Blue Valley Park, ask for it by name when you head to town.
Jack

What the heck is "artificial OB"? It either is or isn't, right? Concrete, roads, and water aren't automatically OB are they?

Sorry Daniel, I wasn't very clear.

My off-the-cuff definitions:

Artificial OB - Rope OB or painted lines such as at USDGC (unless they are painted lines to help define borders of other OB).

Man-Made OB - Concrete, roads, fences, playgrounds, etc., if specified by the TD.

Natural OB - Bodies of water, if speicifed by the TD.

Natural Obstacles - Trees, long grass, bushes, elevation, soft soil (or sand).


Winthrop Gold is a very hard course, but it is due to artificial OB. Though it's also pretty hard even without the rope. Hole 5 would be my number 1 favorite hole in disc golf if it didn't have man-made OB (park road) down the right side of it.

rodney

All I can say is the hardest course I've ever played was the Tobboggan at the 2000 worlds.
Insanely long and hugh slopes like (ski) slopes just walking the course was bad, but I'm just AM so the big pros might not think so.

No need for me to say the Hardest...I been building it for years, and next year when the Whippin Post is 18 holes, the Woodshed 18 will seem like Burke Lake! DUDES - Paw-Paw RULES!!

The most interesting course I've ever played is a 9 hole course in Ft. Dodge, IA. One hole is off of a 50 ft cliff and they have another hole with what they call "tree gates" which is essentially four sets of double dog legs. There was a trout creek flowing through almost every hole.

It may not exist anymore... but I guess I'll find out.

POW!

[jackinkc]

Aw yes Ft. Dodge, I almost forgot about that place. It was a very unique course. I bet it is still there. once in the ground in IA, it is hard to take them away.
Jack

[gnduke]

Wilmont in 6-18 inches of standing water.

[Chris Hysell]

Must be the softest.

Thanks for the clarification Chris!

1. "Redstone Arsenal"
2. "Round Rock"
3. "Moody's"
4. "Circl R"

[bigchiz]

Hardest course: The Links at Lake Cunningham in Omaha, NE

length avg
AA 4086 227.0
BA 6038 335.4
AB 5136 285.3
BB 7284 404.7
AC 7363 409.1
BC 9293 516.3

First two times to play it there was high humidity and temps in the upper 90s. Grueling jungle golf.

would anyone who has played renissiance
like to say it is NOT
the hardest disc GOLF course out there
so many people have told me it is
even Greg Hosefeld who claims to have played
over 650 course says its the one