Rules Inquiry Re: Picnic Tables

[pjohnmeyer]

Situation: A disc comes to rest on the ground underneath a picnic table, in bounds.

Here is how I interpret the situation, assuming no TD directives otherwise:

The picnic table is an obstacle under 803.05.A and "No relief is granted from park equipment".

If the design of the picnic table and the lie is such that it "prevents a player from taking a legal stance within 30 centimeters directly behind the marker disc" then 803.04.E applies.

If not, then the player must take a legal stance under 803.04 with at least one supporting point on the ground, or take Optional Relief under 803.05.C, or take an Optional Rethrow per 803.06. The picnic table is not part of the playing surface, and cannot satisfy the requirement of 803.04.A(1).

If the TD declares picnic tables to be casual obstacles, then the relief rules under 803.05.B apply.

Even if the TD declares picnic tables to be part of the playing surface, then the picnic table still cannot satisfy the requirement of 803.04.A(1) in this situation. The ground is also a playing surface, and playing surfaces can be vertically stacked per QA2, so the lie must be established on the ground.

Is my interpretation correct?

This was sparked by a conversation here.

[cgkdisc]

All of those statements sound correct. If the question is whether a disc can be brought from the ground up on the bench or table surface and played from there, the answer would be no. As I understand it, the only time you could play from the bench or table is if your disc actually lands on it AND the TD had declared picnic tables and benches a stacked playing surface.

The one tricky situation would be if the disc landed above the ground suspended on a strut that was under and supporting the table which had been declared a playing surface. I think in this instance, the player could mark up or down.

[araydallas]

Originally Posted by pjohnmeyer

Situation: A disc comes to rest on the ground underneath a picnic table, in bounds.

Here is how I interpret the situation, assuming no TD directives otherwise:

The picnic table is an obstacle under 803.05.A and "No relief is granted from park equipment".

If the design of the picnic table and the lie is such that it "prevents a player from taking a legal stance within 30 centimeters directly behind the marker disc" then 803.04.E applies.

If not, then the player must take a legal stance under 803.04 with at least one supporting point on the ground, or take Optional Relief under 803.05.C, or take an Optional Rethrow per 803.06. The picnic table is not part of the playing surface, and cannot satisfy the requirement of 803.04.A(1).

If the TD declares picnic tables to be casual obstacles, then the relief rules under 803.05.B apply.

Even if the TD declares picnic tables to be part of the playing surface, then the picnic table still cannot satisfy the requirement of 803.04.A(1) in this situation. The ground is also a playing surface, and playing surfaces can be vertically stacked per QA2, so the lie must be established on the ground.

Is my interpretation correct?

This was sparked by a conversation here.

Here is the thing that I believe gets people passionately on both sides of this issue -- when to me it is cut and dry AND very clear. Many people think you have a right to "stand" not "take a legal stance" in the picnic table situation; yet we do it all the time. We try to stretch our body to get around a tree or bush to get back to the fairway, we putt or approach from a knee (or with another body part) on the ground, etc. You are entitled to "taking a legal stance, " which by definition means your disc landed inbounds on the ground and you can get one supporting point within 30 cm of the lie. I cannot imagine any standard picnic table where that's not possible. You may not be able to "stand" behind that lie, but you can get something – a foot, a toe, a hand, an elbow, a finger – behind that lie making it possible to play it as it lies, just like you would if you were in a nasty bush on the ground.

On your discussion board, I agree with 5Milosboys.

Where under a picnic table can you not get a supporting point?

[cgkdisc]

In some cases, you might have to take solid object relief behind a supporting leg if you can't get your foot in there, but otherwise you would play it from under the table.