Trophy Only

[JenniferB]

There's been a lot of interest lately in offering a trophy only option in FPO at PDGA events to encourage lower rated women to play FPO. Some questions that have come up are:

1. The rules specify that it takes 3 trophy only participants to equal one participant for purposes of added cash, etc, but it looks like the "reduced fee" can be anything. If a TD charges 50% of the pro entry fee for trophy only participants, where does the extra 17% go at an A tier? The general purse? What of the TD charges only 25% of the pro entry fee? Where does the other 8% come from? The general purse?

2. The rules say the TD can offer the trophy only option at a reduced fee, but don't make it clear whether the TD has to offer it to everyone, or if the TD can make the option contingent on some other condition, such as maximum rating allowed, purchase of a player's pack, participation in a side game, etc. What options does a TD have for offering the option? Are any conditions allowed and, if so, what kind of conditions would be allowed versus disallowed?

[krupicka]

The equivalence number is used to compute how deep to pay out. It does not affect the purse calculations.

[jconnell]

Originally Posted by JenniferB

There's been a lot of interest lately in offering a trophy only option in FPO at PDGA events to encourage lower rated women to play FPO. Some questions that have come up are:

1. The rules specify that it takes 3 trophy only participants to equal one participant for purposes of added cash, etc, but it looks like the "reduced fee" can be anything. If a TD charges 50% of the pro entry fee for trophy only participants, where does the extra 17% go at an A tier? The general purse? What of the TD charges only 25% of the pro entry fee? Where does the other 8% come from? The general purse?

2. The rules say the TD can offer the trophy only option at a reduced fee, but don't make it clear whether the TD has to offer it to everyone, or if the TD can make the option contingent on some other condition, such as maximum rating allowed, purchase of a player's pack, participation in a side game, etc. What options does a TD have for offering the option? Are any conditions allowed and, if so, what kind of conditions would be allowed versus disallowed?

Where is the rule that specifies the "value" of a trophy only player? Where are you getting it takes three to equal one full paying player? I can't find that anywhere. A player is a player. The only instance in which the trophy-only player is at a disadvantage or a "lesser" player versus a full price player is if the event fills. The TD has the discretion to require trophy-only players to pay full price in order to keep their place in the event ahead of other full price paying players (Competition Manual Section 2.5 D).

The competition manual allows for TDs to offer a trophy-only option to amateurs in the pro divisions, and all players in amateur divisions. I don't believe a TD can put any other conditions or restrictions on who can take advantage of trophy-only. If a 1000-rated amateur wants to play MPO trophy-only, the TD can't stop him.

TDs have the freedom to charge what they want for the trophy-only players and give them what they want for that fee. Trophy-only is not an invitation for players to expect or demand a la carte entry fees. Trophy-only simply allows players to opt out of the payout (cash or prize) by paying a reduced fee. If the TD is giving a player pack to all players in a division, the trophy-only players get one too (and typically their entry is designed to account for that).

[cgkdisc]

One of the primary original reasons for creating the Trophy Only option was to provide a less expensive way for Ams to enter Pro divisions and not lose their Am status. However, once the rule was changed to allow Ams to play in Pro divisions and accept merch prizes in lieu of cash, it pretty much took the air out of that primary reason for Trophy Only.

[krupicka]

The primary reason players in this area play trophy only is to play in a tournament without spending as much money.

[Patrick P]

So next weekend there are a few Ams that will play the Socal Pro Championships. Sounds like Trophy Only will not be offered requiring all the Ams to pay full price. If an Am finishes in a cash place and wants to take merch in lieu of cash to retain their Am status, can the TD simply provide a gift cert. to the local disc golf shop?

I can only imagine for the TD what a hassle it would be to be provide merch to an Am player at a pro event where cash is the only form of payout.

[cgkdisc]

Yes, gift certificate for merch is allowed as payout to Ams who cash in a pro division.

[wsfaplau]

Originally Posted by JenniferB

There's been a lot of interest lately in offering a trophy only option in FPO at PDGA events to encourage lower rated women to play FPO.

Jennifer, I don't understand why this is true.
Why would this be an attractive option that generates this interest?

Serious question. It doesn't apply to me or impact me in anyway, I am not opposed to it, I just don't get it.

Can you please help me understand it?
Thanks

[dm4]

Well, if you are only playing for trophy, then there would be no money to win, so you could stay an "am" if you won. That's my guess anyway. Also the reduced entry fee. That might make them want to move up and play for a trophy; not as much to lose.

[wsfaplau]

My confusion is because all you listed could also be accomplished by staying in an am division.
Plus you might also get useful prizes in AM.

[PhattD]

Originally Posted by wsfaplau

My confusion is because all you listed could also be accomplished by staying in an am division.
Plus you might also get useful prizes in AM.

Maybe they want to play with the pros. That can't be accomplished staying in the am division.

[Patrick P]

So I can think of a few reasons for an AM to play Trophy only.
1. To play in a Pro event and maintain AM status
2. Opportunity to test the waters before making a move up to Pro
3. Play alongside Top Pros
4. Play a PDGA event at a reduced price.

I understand that there is certain procedures when it comes to making up the cards for Round 1 (usually random), but I'm sure we have all seen the stacked Elite cards for first round (that's a topic for a different discussion).

Do you think it's fair for a Trophy Only player to have the same equal chance to play alongside a top Pro in the first round compared to someone else who has paid full price?

This weekend I plan to play a Pro event entering as Trophy Only. Nikko, Feldberg, Ulibarri, Philo, Rico are just a few of the top pros and then we have our best local pros.

Personally I don't feel it would be fair for a trophy only player to have the same chance to play with one of these guys compared to someone paying full price. I think the Trophy Only players should be grouped together, although it would be so awesome to play with any of these Pros, and some may say it might be worth it to just pay full price. Is it permissible by the PDGA to allow this sorting at the TD's discretion?

Now, if the DG Gods are in my favor during Rd1 and I play well, then sort cards as normal.

What do you think?

[krupicka]

Are players paying to play in a tournament or or players paying to play a round with an elite touring pro? It's an entry fee not a preferential treatment fee.

[jconnell]

Originally Posted by krupicka

Are players paying to play in a tournament or or players paying to play a round with an elite touring pro? It's an entry fee not a preferential treatment fee.

Bingo. Trophy-only players are only choosing to opt-out of the payout. They are still competing directly with everyone in the division. No reason at all for them to be treated differently. They still get to call themselves the champ if they win or say they finished 5th if they finish 5th. The only thing they don't get is the loot.

[JenniferB]

I think a lot of the initial interest is actually from lower rated pro players who didn't realize that only ams are allowed to play trophy only in pro divisions. I think those players want to be able to take cash in local events, and then play at a reduced fee at majors and so forth that are more expensive, and where they have no chance of cashing. There is also interest from these players in raising the ratings cap on pros playing ams, but I don't think they realize pros can't play am at majors.

In a poll asking why women players don't play many tournaments, the overwhelming response was expense, because usually the husband or boyfriend is also playing, and so it's a double burden on the family. Second was childcare, and finding a babysitter is added expense.

So I think there is a lot of interest in figuring out ways to reduce fees and/or let women take cash at local events. If the goal really is to increase participation by women to approach that of men (and I personally doubt that most guys really want that, based on what I've seen) then there needs to be a different type of divisional structure for women. I don't expect the male players will be too happy about women getting special treatment, so it won't happen. In the long run, I expect a WDGA or something like that will eventually branch off and do its own thing, like happened with the LPGA.

[krupicka]

Originally Posted by JenniferB

I think a lot of the initial interest is actually from lower rated pro players who didn't realize that only ams are allowed to play trophy only in pro divisions.

Trophy only in a Pro division is NOT limited to Ams.

[jconnell]

Originally Posted by krupicka

Trophy only in a Pro division is NOT limited to Ams.

I think it is.

2.5 Trophy Only

A. At the option of the TD, Amateur players are allowed to play in Pro divisions for which they are eligible according to age and sex at a reduced entry fee.

B. At the option of the TD, Pro or Am players may compete for trophies only in any Amateur division offered by an event that their player rating, age and sex qualifies them for, by paying a reduced entry fee.

[krupicka]

Interesting, we have never limited it for the events we run.

It is those types of policies that perpetuate the move up and then drop out cycle we see so often.

[wsfaplau]

Originally Posted by JenniferB

I think a lot of the initial interest is actually from lower rated pro players who didn't realize that only ams are allowed to play trophy only in pro divisions. I think those players want to be able to take cash in local events, and then play at a reduced fee at majors and so forth that are more expensive, and where they have no chance of cashing. There is also interest from these players in raising the ratings cap on pros playing ams, but I don't think they realize pros can't play am at majors.

In a poll asking why women players don't play many tournaments, the overwhelming response was expense, because usually the husband or boyfriend is also playing, and so it's a double burden on the family. Second was childcare, and finding a babysitter is added expense.

So I think there is a lot of interest in figuring out ways to reduce fees and/or let women take cash at local events. If the goal really is to increase participation by women to approach that of men (and I personally doubt that most guys really want that, based on what I've seen) then there needs to be a different type of divisional structure for women. I don't expect the male players will be too happy about women getting special treatment, so it won't happen. In the long run, I expect a WDGA or something like that will eventually branch off and do its own thing, like happened with the LPGA.

OK thx, What I think you are saying is lower rated FPO players want to be able to play for cash locally and pay less to play bigger events they won't cash in.

I think that holds true for many men as well but structurally that has flaws. Probably even more folks want to play for bigger payouts. Giving more spots to folks not adding to the payout seems to me like something many Open players wouldn't be in favor of.

Thanks for helping me understand it better.

[cgkdisc]

Adding Trophy Only players means more full price players will be paid. If you only have 20 full price players, then 8 will get paid with a 40% payout. If 30 Trophy Only players get added to the 20 full rpice players, more money will go to the purse and every full price player cashes regardless how poorly they play.

[Patrick P]

Originally Posted by cgkdisc

Adding Trophy Only players means more full price players will be paid. If you only have 20 full price players, then 8 will get paid with a 40% payout. If 30 Trophy Only players get added to the 20 full price players, more money will go to the purse and every full price player cashes regardless how poorly they play.

Huh?

So your saying that by adding TO players (who are not in the cash) will increase the number of full price players cashing?

If I have a pool of 72 players, 60 full price and 12 TO, and I am paying out the top 40%, are you saying then 29 (72*40%) players will be paid vs. 24 (60*40%)?

And if that's the case, although more full price players will be paid, they will be marginally paid less than if there were no TO players.

[krupicka]

What Chuck is assuming is that the trophy only players would not have played if they had to pay full price. Therefore they are sort of like added cash.

[Patrick P]

I understand that TO players are treated as added cash. But if they are also treated as added # of players to the percentage of cash payout then that means they diminish the avg. amount of cash to each of the full price players that cash.

For example, if you have 72 players, 60 full price ($80/ea), 12 TO ($25/ea) that would be $5,100 in the pool. Paying 40% of all players would mean 29 players (72*40%) will avg $177/ea. If the TO's are excluded from percentage of cash payout, then 24 players (60*40%) will avg $212/ea.

So although a TO will add cash they in effect take away cash from the original pool of the top 40% and distribute a portion of their contribution to players that would not of cashed in the first place.

[krupicka]

TO Players are considered partial players when computing payouts, thus 12 TO players are counted as 4 players for computing depth of payout.

[Patrick P]

Originally Posted by krupicka

TO Players are considered partial players when computing payouts, thus 12 TO players are counted as 4 players for computing depth of payout.

Is there some reference to this?

I just want to know how to handle these things related to offering Trophy Only at events. Thanks.

[krupicka]

It really should be someplace more obvious, but the count 3 TO players as one all in player is buried in the TD report.

[Patrick P]

Originally Posted by krupicka

It really should be someplace more obvious, but the count 3 TO players as one all in player is buried in the TD report.

Thanks, that's really good to know :-)

[JenniferB]

Originally Posted by krupicka

It really should be someplace more obvious, but the count 3 TO players as one all in player is buried in the TD report.

I think TDs should have more flexibility than the 3 to 1 ratio. That ratio seems to assume that trophy only players will be charged 33% of full price. But what if TDs want to charge 50% of full price, or 25% of full price, to trophy only players? And what if you have 5 trophy only players? Do those still count as only 1 full price player? In FPO, I think you can probably count on having 5 or less trophy only players almost every time it's offered, and you won't see much deeper payout for the pros from ams playing up. We need something with more impact.

I'd also like to see pros allowed to play trophy only. Maybe it could be tied to rating? Women pros rated under 900 allowed to play trophy only in pro divisions? That seems more than fair to me. Is there a similar rating cap that strikes you guys as equitable for the male pros to play trophy only in pro divisions? Maybe 970?

[krupicka]

IMO no rating cap is needed. Let anyone play trophy only if they want. If a 1040 player wants to play trophy only, why stop him?

We do something completely different here for a pro reduced entry fee. In our case each discount player is equivalent to 1/2 an all in player. It really depends on the EF ratio between the two price points. Match that ratio and you should be ok.