Ask Chuck Kennedy

[WhiteyBear]

Chuck, I think the underlying problem is this; in historical records the PDGA is saying that a "course lowest score" is not equal to "course best rated round".

If I went out on Sunday, the day after Blackhawk is played, and shot a 45 (one better than the best score out there), I'd be considered to have had a worse round than the day before. If the same group would play Blackhawk the next day in the OO, on the same course, and everyone would have shot a 46 (never going to happen), then the rating would be a 1000, right?

Again, it's purely opinion, but it's the score that matters. If players want to play in 50 MPH wind or in "less competition", then that's on them, not the significance of what they can achieve. You can't make an "easier" 46 out there [given conditions are the same], it just doesn't happen. It defies logic.

You guys are doing a great job adjusting to the schematics of the league rounds, and I do appreciate that. It's just the painfully, glaringly, obvious problem in our location; rounds of the same conditions and scores rate less in leagues then one-day tournaments.

Appreciate the feedback Chuck, figured I'd put my .02 in there as well. Constructive criticism never hurts. Have a great week.

[the_kid]

Hey Chuck,


How did the second round of this event drop 20pts? The first round dropped a little as well....and had the 3rd been posted I'm sure it would have also dropped.

Anyway it was a pretty good round that went from 1050+ to 1035.

http://www.pdga.com/tournament_results/96918

[cgkdisc]

According to TD report, you played a different course in R2. Not sure why R3 doesn't have ratings. Checking into that.

Update: Turns out TD didn't supply the R3 scores for the Oct update. We just got them and it will be in the Nov update. Since it was the same course as R1, it's possible the R1 ratings may change.

[JenniferB]

When a player gets a rating that is too high due to obvious error that has been acknowledged by the TD, but hasn't been corrected yet online, and won't be until the next update, can a TD allow that player to play in a lower division?

For example, take a look at the am womens ratings at these tournaments. You have rec and int women throwing nearly 1000 rated rounds, and at least one of them got stuck with an advanced rating by mistake, while another missed that fate by 1 point.

http://www.pdga.com/tournament_results/93007
http://www.pdga.com/tournament_results/95138

One of these tournaments somehow didn't get corrected in the last update, although the TD says it should have been, and assures us it will be corrected in the next one. What recourse do these players have if another update goes through without a correction?

[bruce_brakel]

TDs agree to require players to play where their ratings allow. But TDs can pretty much do whatever they want and say sorry later, so long as they are quick to pay their fees and send in results.

Fortunately the error is only making about a 5 point ratings difference for one of them and a 10 point difference for the other.

[cgkdisc]

The Tour Director can waive the requirements for an appropriate reason such as the wrong round ratings pulling someone's round rating too high.

[WhiteyBear]

Chuck, one more quick question...

Where/who do I submit previous sanctioned rounds that I played in this year for my rating (I just renewed)? Appreciate it!

[cgkdisc]

If your PDGA number was on those earlier events, you have been getting ratings you just can't see until your renewal goes thru. If your PDGA number was not on some events, then email asweeton at pdga.com and he'll add your PDGA number to them and you'll see the ratings in the December update.

[the_kid]

Originally Posted by cgkdisc

According to TD report, you played a different course in R2. Not sure why R3 doesn't have ratings. Checking into that.

Update: Turns out TD didn't supply the R3 scores for the Oct update. We just got them and it will be in the Nov update. Since it was the same course as R1, it's possible the R1 ratings may change.

I understand that the second round was on a different course just not why they dropped so much compared to the unofficial rating that seemed to be right. One shot off the course record and only rated 1035 seems a little low......especially when there were 4 1000 rated golfers in the field.

[cgkdisc]

Rater of the Tossed Arc, do you think we'll be able to use LEDs taped to discs to play sanctioned rounds at night?

[cgkdisc]

Why "Yes" it looks like we just got a waiver from the PDGA office to allow this. Check out the new story on the PDGA Home page: Glowin' in the Winter

[ERicJ]

Originally Posted by cgkdisc

Why "Yes" it looks like we just got a waiver from the PDGA office to allow this. Check out the new story on the PDGA Home page: Glowin' in the Winter

Originally Posted by PDGA Story

Question: Can only PDGA Approved glow discs be used for sanctioned play in the dusk and dark?

Answer: The PDGA office has approved a blanket waiver so any PDGA Approved disc may be used with glow stick or LED light attached, preferably to the underside of transparent discs, after civil twilight in your time zone. In addition, LED lights taped to PDGA Approved discs can be used during daylight specifically when there is sufficient snow cover on the course and the LED might make the disc easier to locate. Non-PDGA Approved discs such as those with built-in LED lights cannot be used at any time during sanctioned play.

+1 for getting this blanket waiver... but -1 for going with "civil twilight" (a time that almost no one will know) instead of something simple, like "sunset".

[cgkdisc]

Civil twilight officially starts at sunset but sounds a little more official from a rules standpoint - realizing that few if any will look up sunset or civil twilight. But at least there's an official time for sticklers to reference.

[ERicJ]

Originally Posted by cgkdisc

Civil twilight officially starts at sunset but sounds a little more official from a rules standpoint - realizing that few if any will look up sunset or civil twilight. But at least there's an official time for sticklers to reference.

Sunset is one specific time. Civil twilight is a duration of time and the quotation above says "after civil twilight". That requires players to know when "the geometric center of the sun reaches 6° below the horizon" which is the end of civil twilight. This is completely unnecessary complexity for the sake of sounding a little more official...?!

Please ask the rules makers to come to their senses and go with "Sunset", a time which is both common and visually observable if necessary.

[cgkdisc]

Not unreasonable to use 'sunset' if it ever becomes a formal rule. But for now it's just a waiver indicating it's okay to tape on the lights once it's getting dark out.

[krupicka]

The thing is thing is sunset times are listed in the newspaper. Civil twilight times are not. Since the blanket waiver is after civil twilight, one needs to actually know when civil twilight ends. Depending on where you live and time of year this is 25-35 minutes after sunset.

Saying 30 minutes after sunset would have been much simpler.

[cgkdisc]

It's been changed to sunset. No biggie. There was no expectation that a TD would look up a specific time in the field but simply judge when it was dark enough that using LEDs was okay. Agree that looking up the sunset time would be easier when scheduling the start time for your event flyer. The actual timing might be different on wooded versus open courses in the same area or if there are hills to the west.

[ERicJ]

Originally Posted by cgkdisc

It's been changed to sunset.

Nice.

[keithjohnson]

Originally Posted by cgkdisc

It's been changed to sunset. No biggie. There was no expectation that a TD would look up a specific time in the field but simply judge when it was dark enough that using LEDs was okay. Agree that looking up the sunset time would be easier when scheduling the start time for your event flyer. The actual timing might be different on wooded versus open courses in the same area or if there are hills to the west.

That's what I love about Chuck - Sometimes he he forces himself to forget he's a scientist and to remember who his audience is.

[cgkdisc]

These days I have to post things for the nitpickers to grab onto to get any posts on this D-Board.

[bruce_brakel]

Originally Posted by cgkdisc

These days I have to post things for the nitpickers to grab onto to get any posts on this D-Board.

Have you considered getting all of the measurements in the rules changed from meters and centimeters to angstroms? That might generate message board activity. And it would be more accurate!

[cgkdisc]

Well, it would be a very small change. Perhaps we just leave angstroms to the Swedes...

[gvan]

Hey Chuck, can you please check on the Gwinnett County Open (Nov 10-11). I submitted the report on the 13th, but it doesn't appear on anyone's ratings detail page.

Thanks.

[cgkdisc]

I'm not the one who receives reports. Contact the PDGA office to find out why it didn't make it in this time. mborelli at pdga.com

[gvan]

Cool. Thanks.

[WhiteyBear]

Hey Chuck, two things...

#1 When does a sanctioned league get their "official" standings? I submitted my final report, finalized it, and sent in the money [2012 TDSA Fall League], but unsure when everything will be set in stone.

#2 There are now two players that are rated over 1,000 playing in advanced. Since all other AM divisions are protected, why can't the same stance be give for ADV players? Something along the lines of 985+ you're a pro.

[cgkdisc]

Sanctioned leagues get processed like any other event. If the final league report is in by the deadline for the next ratings update, it should be processed.

As long as we call our players who play for merch "Ams" and our players who play for cash "Pros," I don't see any capping of the Advanced division rating. No other sport forces ams to turn pro, at least that we've found. Can you think of any?

[jconnell]

Originally Posted by WhiteyBear

#2 There are now two players that are rated over 1,000 playing in advanced. Since all other AM divisions are protected, why can't the same stance be give for ADV players? Something along the lines of 985+ you're a pro.

One of those two 1000 rated ams has a rating based on exactly one tournament. Hard to say he's definitely a "pro" based on one perhaps lucky (as in everything went in for him that day) tournament.

The other guy...no idea what his motivation for staying am is considering he's been winning tournaments for years, but hey, it's his prerogative. Like Chuck says, there's no sport that forces players to turn pro. Some of the greatest ball golfers in history were ams for life. Bobby Jones won all four PGA majors in one year once, and never turned pro (he did cash in for $60K by betting on himself to pull off the feat, though). Tiger Woods won three straight US amateur titles, and three straight junior titles before that, before turning pro.

Disc golf seems to be the only sport around in which sustained success on the amateur level is viewed as some sort of evil.

[WhiteyBear]

Originally Posted by cgkdisc

Sanctioned leagues get processed like any other event. If the final league report is in by the deadline for the next ratings update, it should be processed.

As long as we call our players who play for merch "Ams" and our players who play for cash "Pros," I don't see any capping of the Advanced division rating. No other sport forces ams to turn pro, at least that we've found. Can you think of any?

Thanks for clearing up the league question.

As far as the second, you are right, there isn't any that forces you up. However, my opinion, there is to much incentive not to move up in disc golf. If you change the mindset of "what can I get if I win" to "what an awesome experience and competition" (for these types of players), this could greatly enhance the AM structure IMHO. In a three-fold strategy;

#1 Lower AM fees, nothing above $30
#2 Give all AMs players packs of slightly increased retail value over entry fee
#3 Trophy only, zero payout

To add to your response, what other sport gives no incentive for their amateur players to move up? Look at how softball leagues around the country are played, probably hundreds of thousands of individuals paying $100+ a season and they don't play for payout, merchandise etc, they play for a trophy. For that $100+ you get a nice uniform (equal to a players pack), and sometimes you can find a league where the stadiums are superb (B and A tier courses).

Let the AM experience be one to build upon, to get that taste for blood when it comes to competition. And for the "casual" player, who never wants to go pro but just compete, give them a nice "something" to go home with regardless of place.

Look at the PGA, one of the most prestigious events, the US Amateur, what does the winner get? A trophy and an invite to the Masters.

Appreciate your time Chuck, thanks for responding.

[cgkdisc]

Part of the reason amateurs in other sports don't get much payout but sometimes get donated items in player packs is the fees mostly go toward paying site rental and admin/officials. We have been fortunate that we've been able to run our events with very little "official" support required so most of the entry fees can be paid back.

With Ams being 80% of the PDGA and a member organization, it would be suicide to force a "no payout" am structure to perhaps make the 20% pros happier. It would fail miserably since TDs want people to play their events and they would simply not sanction. Bye-bye PDGA. Selective events like the Memorial have gotten away with having most of the entry fee go into hefty player packs with no payout. But players are still getting what they see is a good enough value for their entry fee.