Ask Chuck Kennedy

[steveganz]

Originally Posted by Patrick P

In a recent event the results have the players in the proper order, but the number for the places is wrong and out of order: http://www.pdga.com/tournament_results/96990

What causes this and how can it be fixed?

Nice catch. Fixed.

Currently, places are only recalculated when uploading results for the entire field. In this case, the final round scores were entered individually for each player so the places from the end of the previous round were still showing.

I've got a longer term fix for this is on my to-do list.

[bruce_brakel]

Originally Posted by steveganz

Nice catch. Fixed.

http://www.pdga.com/tournament_results/88595

The Junior Girls < 19 division is wrong. Those are probably Junior Boys < 19 xcept the one girl. You'd have to talk to Schwass.

[steveganz]

Originally Posted by bruce_brakel

http://www.pdga.com/tournament_results/88595

The Junior Girls < 19 division is wrong. Those are probably Junior Boys < 19 xcept the one girl. You'd have to talk to Schwass.

Different problem, but thanks. I'll pass it along to Big Dog.

[bruce_brakel]

Originally Posted by steveganz

Different problem, but thanks. I'll pass it along to Big Dog.

Thanks. I can never remember who does what, but all of you do a better job of it recently!

[nnovia]

Sorry, I've been looking for two days, can someone explain, or point me in the right direction of a form...that explains the "tier" system? Please...can't find this anywhere...

[steveganz]

First two links on this page: http://www.pdga.com/td/event-planning-management

[nnovia]

Originally Posted by steveganz

First two links on this page: http://www.pdga.com/td/event-planning-management

That was so much easier...now I feel kinda dumb.
Thanks so much!

[krupicka]

Chuck, are the round ratings for the performance flight of the USDGC going to be based on the calculated ratings from just that flight or from the ratings of both flights? Any idea when we might see the performance flight unofficial ratings?

[steveganz]

Originally Posted by nnovia

That was so much easier...now I feel kinda dumb.
Thanks so much!

I actually just reorganized the entire Tournament Director selection last week in an effort to make it easier to find things. That's a brand new page.

[cgkdisc]

Originally Posted by krupicka

Chuck, are the round ratings for the performance flight of the USDGC going to be based on the calculated ratings from just that flight or from the ratings of both flights? Any idea when we might see the performance flight unofficial ratings?

There won't be any unofficial ratings posted for the Performance Flight on their PDGA scores page. However, their current unoffical ratings are exactly the same as whatever their actual score was unofficially rated in the Open Flight during the same round.

All USDGC players will get official ratings in the Oct 23rd update with the SSA course ratings determined from only the Open Flight player ratings and scores.

[krupicka]

Why are the ratings only going to be determined from the Open Flight player ratings and scores? I know in the past you have argued that ratings with tee times typically should be segmented somewhat based on time of day.

[cgkdisc]

We determined from last year that the performance format is a different enough game from standard disc golf that those scores were incompatible with regular scores for determining the SSA. Especially with the T&D format last year, many more players/propagators are prone to "tin cupping" which will artificially inflate the "true" SSA, partly due to the format and partly having much less at stake than the Open players who can still cash even after a slip up.

[krupicka]

Once you have the data, I'd love to know how different the SSA is between the two flights.

[cgkdisc]

It may not be calculated officially. The only preliminary info I saw was after 16 or so Performance players R1 scores were posted on PDGA before they were removed and it showed around 71 SSA, maybe 5 shots above the Open flight. I know with T&D last year, the unofficial SSA was maybe 8-9 higher than the Open Flight in 2010.

[futurecollisions]

Originally Posted by cgkdisc

Ratings updates for 2012 events:
Mar 20, May 15, July 3, Aug 14, Sep 18, Oct 16, Nov 20, Dec 18, Jan 22

was there supposed to be an update 2 days ago?

[jconnell]

Originally Posted by futurecollisions

was there supposed to be an update 2 days ago?

From the front page of the site: Next PDGA Player Ratings Update

The next PDGA Player Ratings Update is scheduled for Tuesday, October 23rd. The deadline for TD Report submissions is Tuesday, October 9th.

The note has been up for at least a couple weeks.

[cgkdisc]

The original Oct 16th date was pushed back to the 23rd about 4 months ago when Andrew realized it was too close to the USDGC so they could process all of the late arriving TD reports and get them into the ratings calculation cycle.

[futurecollisions]

Originally Posted by jconnell

From the front page of the site: Next PDGA Player Ratings Update



The note has been up for at least a couple weeks.

Thanks, i have the message board bookmarked so i never even see the front page, my bad

[krupicka]

It looks like the new ratings are out (my page shows tomorrow's date), but I don't see the USDGC ratings. Do you know what happened here?

[cgkdisc]

Looks like that's getting sorted out now for how to get those USDGC ratings posted properly. I slipped up making sure everyone was onboard with how that would be handled.

[JenniferB]

I recently noticed that there are some suggested minimum ratings listed for pro divisions in the tour standards document. For example, >900 for FPO. Does that mean that TDs have discretion to refuse to let women rated under 900 play FPO? If so, how would that square with the requirement that TDs refuse no entry to PDGA members if the pool is not full? For example, at a pro only event, a woman age <40 and rated under 900 could be refused entry if the minimum rating is enforced.

[cgkdisc]

The minimum ratings shown are guidelines only so players have an idea what minimum level rating might be needed to be a contender in that division. The only place the guidelines are mandatory is in the "Pros Playing Am" section where pros must have ratings below the numbers shown to enter that amateur division.

[krupicka]

Chuck, regarding the differences between league ratings and tournament ratings. I know at least by me, the number of players with well-established ratings playing leagues is a lot less than in tournaments. Wouldn't this partially account for the differences, i.e. rapidly improving players depressing ratings?

[cgkdisc]

It could have a small effect. If you only have five props and all of them are underrated by 10 points, then you would have an SSA and a set of round ratings that are low by 1 throw. That's pretty much worst case scenario eve in leagues. If those underrated props are blended with other players with more established ratings, the effect will be less detectable.

[Dwiggy444]

I'm trying to do some early prep for the 2013 Pro Worlds at Lemon Lake and I'd like to try to figure out what courses were played for each round during 2010 Worlds so that I can see what a 1000-rated round looks like on each course. In the old days, I'd just go to the tournament results page here on the PDGA website and then click on the "course statistics" link at the top of the results to find the SSA for each course, but that link is gone now. So...

What's the best way to find this info - for the 2010 Pro Worlds and for other courses and events in the future?

Thanks for your help!

[cgkdisc]

Right now, it looks like the only course to be played by Open that should be about the same will be the Gold course. Look for the Open rounds where the 1000 rated round is near 63. That was the Gold course. That's the only help I can provide for the moment. Past history is not always good for evaluating Pro Worlds courses in advance because they are almost always tweaked for flow and timing. For example, the longest layout may not be used.

[Dana]

So the perf flight scores were not used to determine USDGC ratings? I figured they were and that may have been a reason why the ratings dropped so much when they went official.

[cgkdisc]

No performance flight scores used, just open flight. Performance flight ratings still haven't been posted yet and they will be the same for the same score as in Open.

[WhiteyBear]

Chuck,

I know it's a well-beat horse, but what is with such a discrepancy in league ratings vs tournament ratings?

Saturday, 11/3 - PDGA Sanctioned League
http://www.pdga.com/tournament_results/99095/2044098670

Saturday, 10/27 (second round) - Oklahoma Open A-Tier
http://www.pdga.com/tournament_results/78988

Weather nearly the same, if not colder during our league round. The lowest round in the league was a 50 for a 1028 unofficial rating. Whereas the same score a week earlier was a 1049. Like a 59 listed as a 969 in the OO, while the same score during league round was rated 943. That is a major swing.

It's hard to pull pros, who have to shoot incredible, just to rate above 1,000. And, in my opinion, it is not a good standard to say that if some AM shoots a 46 at our course (tying Dave Feldburgs round), that they shouldn't receive the same near 1100 rating as he did that day with common conditions.

This is a common problem with the leagues, and I know you all are aware and are trying to remedy the "problem". It should be pretty cut and dry though, given that there was an A-tier just a week prior, and same weather conditions, the ratings for the scores should be identical. What's the reasoning as to why this wouldn't be the case. Or do we really believe that some 50's are better than others, as long as someone isn't playing in that tournament the same day?

Appreciate your insight and response Chuck.

[cgkdisc]

It's not so much a problem with the ratings system but player expectations that a course will/should have the same rating for the same score at all times regardless of when it's played, even if the weather is the same. The reality is the ratings process automatically takes into account the overall playing conditions in effect at the time the round is played. It's not just the base rating of the course only. If the round ratings come in 1-2 shots/10-20 points lower for the same score in league versus a weekend event, the reality is the course actually played 2 shots easier in league. The players' scoring average indicates that.

I'm not sure why this should surprise anyone. In fact, wouldn't it be surprising and even a bit suspicious if a score of 44 on an SSA 50 course would get rated the same in rec play (following PDGA rules), league play and tournament play? I think players innately understand that it's a bit tougher to make that putt the higher the stakes. We haven't seen these differences until now because the PDGA doesn't officially rate rec rounds and league rounds just started this year.

I think a lot of people were concerned that the league program was going to inflate ratings and players were rubbing their hands together thinking they were going to score better ratings at leagues. The fact that anyone would think that would indicate that they felt it was "easier" to shoot a better score. Well, we're finding out it IS easier in some leagues (maybe 1/3 so far). But the ratings process nets out the difference so that all players entering don't gain, don't lose, but always receive on average the same amount of ratings points regardless whether it's a league or tournament.

The average round ratings awarded on a league day is the same as in weekend event with the same players. It's just that everyone might play 1-2 throws worse on average on the weekend. Remember that this difference, if it exists at all in your league, only amounts to a few percentage points variance in the SSA and ratings.

The only players who might get hurt from a ratings standpoint in leagues are players visiting the league who don't normally play that course and are less familiar with the 'grooved' routes the locals know. Otherwise, if everyone is playing 1-2 throws better, it only makes sense that a 53 in league might be the same performance/rating as a 55 in the weekend tournament.