PDGA Major Event: 2012 Pro/Am Disc Golf World Championships, Charlotte, NC

[MTL21676]

Originally Posted by ERicJ

The last three posts all have some good points made. I'd read the reviews on DGCR before heading to Worlds so I knew what I was getting into from a course perspective. But as a 938-rated player who learned to play on the long & open courses of Houston I will say I was somewhat disappointed that there weren't at least a couple bomber holes. Across all the MA1 courses I think Hornet's #2 is the only hole that falls into that category.

Regarding Drivers off the tee, I threw only 12 out of 108:
R1 Hornet's #2, 3, 17
R2 Kilborne #3, 16, 17
R3 RL Smith #2
R4 Winget #14, 18
R5 Angry #7, 16
R6 RL Smith #2

There may have been a few more candidates, but as Chuck said: I thought the smarter play was a more controlled midrange on those.
My complete Worlds round listing: here.

I'm not complaining; like I said, I knew what I was getting into. Just adding another data point. And expressing my opinion that AM Worlds 2012 favored the control player more than the past two years' AM Worlds.

If you didn't throw drivers on 3, 6, and 18 at Hornest Nest you were either playing SUPER conservative or simply throw a lot further than 99% of golfers.

[Jeff_LaG]

Originally Posted by jconnell

I think anyone who found the Worlds courses inadequate only found them lacking in enough of the shots that they themselves are most comfortable with, because the diversity was certainly there.

Bingo.

Furthermore, in their opinion, there basically just wasn't enough completely open tee shots for the golfers who can throw the farthest to utilize that advantage. The number of wooded holes negated that advantage.

In conversations with a few of these elite players, and from observing them, they want to be able to throw as far as they can and use that advantage off as many tees as possible. Now, they are smart enough to realize on tightly wooded holes that throwing a midrange off the tee for fairway placement is the preferred play, but nothing bothers them more then to have to do that on a large number of holes. And that's exactly what they saw at this year's Worlds courses.

Eric knew what he was getting into, but the real interesting point is how this all became such a big "surprise" to many other competitors. Disc golfers knew about Charlotte courses and how they played for years. The selection of which courses were played by which divisions was known for almost all of 2012 leading up to the event, and everyone had every opportunity to practice them. Yet nothing was said about these courses until competitors started struggling on them during the actual competition itself. It's either really interesting timing, or a little sour grapes from those a little bitter with their performances.

[jconnell]

Originally Posted by Jeff_LaG

Bingo.

Furthermore, in their opinion, there basically just wasn't enough completely open tee shots for the golfers who can throw the farthest to utilize that advantage. The number of wooded holes negated that advantage.

In conversations with a few of these elite players, and from observing them, they want to be able to throw as far as they can and use that advantage off as many tees as possible. Now, they are smart enough to realize on tightly wooded holes that throwing a midrange off the tee for fairway placement is the preferred play, but nothing bothers them more then to have to do that on a large number of holes. And that's exactly what they saw at this year's Worlds courses.

This after-the-fact criticism isn't even exclusive to Worlds. I've got a limited scope of experience in Majors/NT/A-tiers alongside these elite players, but I don't think there's been a single one where I did not hear multiple and sometimes harsh criticisms of the course(s), usually borne of frustration with how the complainant played it. That includes instances in which the complaining player had won the event on the same course in the past. Those probably baffled me more than any other. Those tight/quirky/winding fairways, random trees, extra/random/stupid OB, etc weren't an issue when you were winning, but have one bad round and the course is complete manure. That makes sense.

I'm willing to bet there is no such thing as a unanimously approved "perfect" course and there never will be. There will always be someone who finds fault with something even if others love it. And the delineation between the love and the dislike will usually be how well one plays the hole/course/tournament.

[ERicJ]

Originally Posted by cgkdisc

I know you said "off the tee" but I'm thinking driver possible on second shot on Hornet's 12 and RL 5.

There's a huge variability on landing your tee shot in just the right place to enable a driver on the second shot.

Originally Posted by MTL21676

If you didn't throw drivers on 3, 6, and 18 at Hornest Nest you were either playing SUPER conservative or simply throw a lot further than 99% of golfers.

Did throw a driver on Hornet's #3. Didn't on #6 because I didn't see the risk/reward benefit for me of getting within makeable putt range off the tee vs. flipping OB or fading left into the brush. It was an easy Comet down the middle, a short Rhyno upshot, and easy short putt. #18 being downhill is reachable with a mid without the risk of a driver going long OB. I just put my Comet a bit too high and it caught the left side trees, still an easy three.

Originally Posted by Jeff_LaG

[...] In conversations with a few of these elite players, and from observing them, they want to be able to throw as far as they can and use that advantage off as many tees as possible.

Having at least a few holes where throwing as far as possible as an advantage would have been a good thing, a bit more balanced I think.

[duhggm]

finally got all the ants out of my car today from the blake parking lot!

[MTL21676]

A few thoughts I want to add...

People always think that big arms are "screwed" in the woods, but in my opinion, big arms actually have a huge advantage on wooded courses. The ability to throw a putter 300 feet, a midrange 375 and a controlled driver like a Leopard or Teebird over 400 is a HUGE advantage on the courses that Charlotte offered. There are many holes that players had to hit lines on 350 foot holes and the advantage of throwing a midrange for safety and still have a chance a birdie b/c you have the arm is a HUGE advantage. I've played A LOT of golf with David Wiggins, Jr. and you get him on a course where he has this advantage and he is very tough to beat. I was surprised at his finish, I really thought he would have finished top 10 - 15.

I've posted this on DGCR, in my opinion, completely wide open holes are way more unfair than wooded holes. People complain about luck in the woods, well, how about someone trying to throw a line 40 feet right of a basket and hyzer to the pin and yanks it 75 feet off line but then gets a nice 35 foot duece putt? How is that better than that person hitting a tree and struggling for par?

As someone who learned to play disc golf in the woods and perfers throwing a flippier disc with hyzer and popping it up (that's the way I learned, after all), the biggest mistake I see players making is trying to birdie everything. Sometimes on a super hard wooded hole, you just have to play for three.

[Jeff_LaG]

Originally Posted by MTL21676

As someone who learned to play disc golf in the woods and perfers throwing a flippier disc with hyzer and popping it up (that's the way I learned, after all), the biggest mistake I see players making is trying to birdie everything. Sometimes on a super hard wooded hole, you just have to play for three.

I'm in 100% agreement, but again, the elite golfers and the ones with the huge distance advantage want to be able to throw as far as they can and use that advantage off as many tees as possible, and they want to birdie every single hole, if possible. The idea of just playing for a three is often a completely foreign one to them, and is often portrayed by them seemingly as a crime against humanity and the very nature of golf and our sport.

[ERicJ]

With ratings posted here's what I get for SSAs based on rounds for M pool, then L pool after the shuffle.

WNG = 49.6
KBN = 51.4
RLS = 52.4
H.N = 54.1
ANG = 56.9

[John Hernlund]

Was looking at payouts for FPO from a different thread, and inadvertently stumbled upon something that seems odd about 2012 Worlds:

Why were the payouts smaller this year than they were for 2011 Pro Worlds?

We always figured that a Pro-Am would have a bigger payout, subsidized in part by the Am side.

[keithjohnson]

More importantly - where are the payout codes for the players that cashed and were not at the awards ceremony to collect that the PDGA said have been settled with the Charlotte club 3 weeks ago?

Seems sad that 48 players who weren't there don't have their codes yet to claim their winnings

[MTL21676]

Originally Posted by John Hernlund

We always figured that a Pro-Am would have a bigger payout, subsidized in part by the Am side.

A huge misconception.

I really don't understand why people think this happens.

[bruce_brakel]

I could tell you why people think this but it would just be thread drift.

[John Hernlund]

Originally Posted by MTL21676

A huge misconception.

I really don't understand why people think this happens.

Because it does happen, but maybe not for Worlds?

Even if Am registration fees are not going directly into the Pro purse, there are still margins for generating money that could go to the Pro purse. For example, the Am payout/script is tallied at retail cost, but is bought at wholesale prices (and/or using discs donated by sponsors). That kind of margin could go to the Pro purse, boosting the Pro payout.

But perhaps Worlds Pro payout is restricted to only the registration fees paid by the Pros?

Anyways, I'm still a student of this stuff, I only have experience with Pro Worlds, and I'm trying to learn how everything works with Pro-Am...no need for a huge thread drift.