Official Results with more than one 1st player winner

[Patrick P]

My understanding is there can only be one 1st player winner per division in each event. In review of the three events listed below, there are two 1st player winners:

Green Valley Amatuer Challenge (3/17-3/18/2012)
http://www.pdga.com/tournament_results/80782
MA4 division - two 1st place winners

Sylmar Open (4/1/2012)
http://www.pdga.com/tournament_results/79294
MPM division - two 1st place winners
MA4 division - two 1st place winners

Spring Fling San Diego - Pros (4/15/2012)
http://www.pdga.com/tournament_results/80260
MPG division - two 1st place winners

[Oruatyrim]

I'm not an expert. But my answer is: After the Tie the win was determined by a playoff format of some sort and that's how the payouts were handled. Only one of them is credited with the actual win in the TD report sent to the PDGA. But since they shot the same score and beat the same amount of people, they still get their ratings calculated correctly for what they shot, AND they get all the points for beating the same amount of people during actual tournament round play.

[jconnell]

Originally Posted by Patrick P

My understanding is there can only be one 1st player winner per division in each event. In review of the three events listed below, there are two 1st player winners:

Green Valley Amatuer Challenge (3/17-3/18/2012)
http://www.pdga.com/tournament_results/80782
MA4 division - two 1st place winners

Sylmar Open (4/1/2012)
http://www.pdga.com/tournament_results/79294
MPM division - two 1st place winners
MA4 division - two 1st place winners

Spring Fling San Diego - Pros (4/15/2012)
http://www.pdga.com/tournament_results/80260
MPG division - two 1st place winners

Looks to me like a snag in the display settings of the website. Look at MPM at the Sylmar Open. Jerry Goff is shown to have won more cash than Todd Mitchell even though they're listed as tied, so my guess is that he won the playoff and something got screwed up in the database or the script that displays them. Ditto for the MPG results from the Spring Fling...one player got money, the other didn't.

This may be something that Steve Ganz needs to look into.

[keithjohnson]

Originally Posted by jconnell

Looks to me like a snag in the display settings of the website. Look at MPM at the Sylmar Open. Jerry Goff is shown to have won more cash than Todd Mitchell even though they're listed as tied, so my guess is that he won the playoff and something got screwed up in the database or the script that displays them. Ditto for the MPG results from the Spring Fling...one player got money, the other didn't.

This may be something that Steve Ganz needs to look into.

It's laziness on the TD's part - On the Uplaod, the website asks you when there are ties anywhere down to 3rd place to leave them tied or you can click the dropdown box to choose the order of the correct finish - if you do NOTHING and leave it alone, it sorts by last round score, which is why you'll have the cash issues you are reporting and will show the 1st place ties.

As soon as TD's get better at reading the info and setting the divisions, pools and other stuff correctly, the sooner Chuck, Steve and the others will stop getting the same questions asked of them over and over every few months when someone new runs across something that has been asked and answered hundreds of times already.

They can't make the TD report much easier than it already is, and even if they do - it won't change anything for those TD's who don't read.

[jconnell]

Originally Posted by keithjohnson

It's laziness on the TD's part - On the Uplaod, the website asks you when there are ties anywhere down to 3rd place to leave them tied or you can click the dropdown box to choose the order of the correct finish - if you do NOTHING and leave it alone, it sorts by last round score, which is why you'll have the cash issues you are reporting and will show the 1st place ties.

As soon as TD's get better at reading the info and setting the divisions, pools and other stuff correctly, the sooner Chuck, Steve and the others will stop getting the same questions asked of them over and over every few months when someone new runs across something that has been asked and answered hundreds of times already.

They can't make the TD report much easier than it already is, and even if they do - it won't change anything for those TD's who don't read.

I'd agree with you, Keith, except the tournaments that Patrick cited are "official" which means they've been processed by the PDGA office rather than uploaded directly by the TD. So it's not TD laziness...at least not laziness with using the upload function.

[steveganz]

Originally Posted by jconnell

I'd agree with you, Keith, except the tournaments that Patrick cited are "official" which means they've been processed by the PDGA office rather than uploaded directly by the TD. So it's not TD laziness...at least not laziness with using the upload function.

You're right. This kind of thing is usually caught when TD reports are officially processed. We're investigating.

[keithjohnson]

Originally Posted by jconnell

I'd agree with you, Keith, except the tournaments that Patrick cited are "official" which means they've been processed by the PDGA office rather than uploaded directly by the TD. So it's not TD laziness...at least not laziness with using the upload function.

Then it could be the laziness of the PDGA person who processed it with the lazy TD entered info without checking it out.

[steveganz]

Originally Posted by keithjohnson

Then it could be the laziness of the PDGA person who processed it with the lazy TD entered info without checking it out.

Laziness has nothing to do with it, Keith. Poorly architected systems and antiquated processes are to blame. We're working tirelessly everyday towards improving those systems and processes so issues like the one outlined above simply cannot happen.

[keithjohnson]

Originally Posted by steveganz

Laziness has nothing to do with it, Keith. Poorly architected systems and antiquated processes are to blame. We're working tirelessly everyday towards improving those systems and processes so issues like the one outlined above simply cannot happen.

OK - then the laziness of the antiquated system to catch these types of errors

I have nothing but love for you Steve and what you are doing to make the TD's lives easier on a daily basis - just needed to let you know that and that you and the other PDGA staffers are appreciated by me even though I will always give everyone crap from time to time just because it's what I do best.

I can't play worth a crap, but I can cause issues like a 1000 rated poster.

For the most part I give out accurate info and help others find out where things are on the website when they are looking (or not looking) for it.

I look forward to seeing all of you guys in Charlotte in a few weeks,

Keith

[rizbee]

Originally Posted by steveganz

Laziness has nothing to do with it, Keith. Poorly architected systems and antiquated processes are to blame. We're working tirelessly everyday towards improving those systems and processes so issues like the one outlined above simply cannot happen.

[begin silliness]

I can't believe that you're working tirelessly on this Steve. I mean, everyone gets tired , don't they? Unless you're a vampire!!! Yikes!! Vampires are running the PDGA!!!

[end silliness....maybe...]

But seriously, I know you're working on ironing out these bugs. I feel many of the reports and processes are showing improvements, and as a TD, I appreciate your efforts.

I also hope that the TD's whose results have these issues are made aware of the problems personally before these questions show up on the public message board. There's nothing more annoying than seeing/hearing that the integrity of your event is being tarnished without having someone discuss it with you personally first.

See you in Charlotte!!

[Patrick P]

Originally Posted by rizbee

I also hope that the TD's whose results have these issues are made aware of the problems personally before these questions show up on the public message board. There's nothing more annoying than seeing/hearing that the integrity of your event is being tarnished without having someone discuss it with you personally first.

TDs were contacted. This wasn't one isolated event. PDGA was contacted privately. Time went by with no action. Hence open forum discussion.

[rizbee]

Please, please, please Patrick, run a tournament. Please.

[Patrick P]

Originally Posted by rizbee

Please, please, please Patrick, run a tournament. Please.

What does this have anything to do with running a tournament Allen? A reoccurring problem was discovered. It was brought up to the individual TDs and afterwards discussed with the PDGA. As you can see PDGA is now looking into the problem and hope to have results that will get this issue fixed. We are all in this together. If these issues are not brought up then how do they get fixed?

[Jeff_LaG]

I am fairly confident that Allen's point is that once you've run a tournament and understand the literally hundreds of details which go into doing so, and the myriad of complaints one gets from tournament competitors, both legitimate and trivial, then you are more likely to take the higher road when dealing with issues like these. And I am 99% confident that Patrick neither sent an e-mail to the the PDGA Tour Manager, nor gave him a call on the phone about this issue which I guarantee would have solved this problem. Yes, this message board is an open forum for discussion but it has been stated ad nauseum that PDGA office employees do not monitor this message board nor respond to posted complaints, and especially the PDGA Tour Manager who would be the best one to remedy this issue. The only reason "the PDGA is now looking into the problem" is because the new PDGA Technology Director, Steve Ganz, happened to notice this thread on the DISCussion board. But in my opinion, this sets a very poor precedent that whenever folks encounter issues, they can just post about it here on the message board and Steve will handle it. Let it be known that when I see Steve in person in nine days at the 2012 Disc Golf World Championships I am going to have a chat with him to highly discourage him from this type of activity.

Bottom line is that underneath the search bar in the upper right corner on every single page of this entire website is a "Contact the PDGA" link. There you can find the web form page to contact every single PDGA committee, program, or officer, as well as the landline phone number for the PDGA International Disc Golf Center where the PDGA Tour Manager is based.

When in doubt, give the PDGA a call and actually speak to someone about your issue and chances are it will get solved in a much more expedient manner. The airing of grievances on this message board is never the solution.

That's just like, my opinion, man.

[Patrick P]

Originally Posted by Jeff_LaG

I am fairly confident that Allen's point is that once you've run a tournament and understand the literally hundreds of details which go into doing so, and the myriad of complaints one gets from tournament competitors, both legitimate and trivial, then you are more likely to take the higher road when dealing with issues like these.

Not sure of this "high road" you are talking about. A problem was identified and I respectfully spoke to the TDs to make them aware of the issue. Are you suggesting that because a TD has so many things to manage that we should overlook and not point out something wrong with the TD report (after the event)? I may have not ran a disc golf event myself, I have though provided some assistance on a small scale to many different TDs. I completely understand what TDs go through because I used to run and organize events that involved upwards of up to 800-1,000 people. As little as some complaints/comments/suggestions could be, I took time after the event to listen to feedback on how I could make improvements so the next event would be even better, rather than solicite the stifling of communication.

Originally Posted by Jeff_LaG

And I am 99% confident that Patrick neither sent an e-mail to the the PDGA Tour Manager, nor gave him a call on the phone about this issue which I guarantee would have solved this problem. Yes, this message board is an open forum for discussion but it has been stated ad nauseum that PDGA office employees do not monitor this message board nor respond to posted complaints, and especially the PDGA Tour Manager who would be the best one to remedy this issue.

Well, when I first spoke to PDGA about the issue I was informed to speak to Andrew Sweeton, which so happens to be the Tour Manager. Spoke to him on May 31st. So Jeff, what does that say to your 99% confidence and your guarantee? I like how people jump to conclusions so easily without knowing the facts. A month goes by, I'm a patient man, no reply back. Then I noticed two other events with the same issue. I then introduced this to the forums to see if anyone else was having this issue (I'm not monitoring every PDGA event).

Originally Posted by Jeff_LaG

The only reason "the PDGA is now looking into the problem" is because the new PDGA Technology Director, Steve Ganz, happened to notice this thread on the DISCussion board. But in my opinion, this sets a very poor precedent that whenever folks encounter issues, they can just post about it here on the message board and Steve will handle it. Let it be known that when I see Steve in person in nine days at the 2012 Disc Golf World Championships I am going to have a chat with him to highly discourage him from this type of activity.

You see, this isn't the first time I have brought up issues to individual PDGA members. Each time I get an immediate reply back, we will look into this, thank you. But then no reply back afterwards. So based on my previous experiences, contacting individual members privately hasn't presented a great success. Once it shows up in the forums though, boy do the wheels start rolling.

Originally Posted by Jeff_LaG

When in doubt, give the PDGA a call and actually speak to someone about your issue and chances are it will get solved in a much more expedient manner. The airing of grievances on this message board is never the solution. That's just like, my opinion, man.

Maybe I will try a phone call rather than email, thank you. Not sure this was a grievance, moreover it was a post to identify a problem/bug with TD reports.

[wsfaplau]

But Patrick, Jeff guaranteed it.

[steveganz]

Originally Posted by Patrick P

A reoccurring problem was discovered. It was brought up to the individual TDs and afterwards discussed with the PDGA. As you can see PDGA is now looking into the problem and hope to have results that will get this issue fixed. We are all in this together. If these issues are not brought up then how do they get fixed?

Patrick, the TDs of the three events have been contacted for tie-breaker confirmation. When we receive a response from them, we'll make the necessary corrections to the official results.

[steveganz]

Originally Posted by Jeff_LaG

The only reason "the PDGA is now looking into the problem" is because the new PDGA Technology Director, Steve Ganz, happened to notice this thread on the DISCussion board. But in my opinion, this sets a very poor precedent that whenever folks encounter issues, they can just post about it here on the message board and Steve will handle it. Let it be known that when I see Steve in person in nine days at the 2012 Disc Golf World Championships I am going to have a chat with him to highly discourage him from this type of activity.

Jeff, I know your heart is in the right place but when I took this job I promised to communicate with our members wherever they are. This is not PDGA policy, this is just me and how I operate. I certainly don't monitor every thread and I can't always guarantee a response, but if I see a question that I have an answer for, I am going to answer it. If I see an issue that I can help with, I'm going to do my best to resolve it. Nothing is going to change that. :-)

[Patrick P]

Originally Posted by steveganz

Patrick, the TDs of the three events have been contacted for tie-breaker confirmation. When we receive a response from them, we'll make the necessary corrections to the official results.

Sounds good, hopefully not too many other events have been affected. Btw, let me take this moment to say, I really like the improvements that have been made to the PDGA website. I also think this is the first in a long time that the PDGA site has ran smoothly during a rating update.

[Jeff_LaG]

Originally Posted by Patrick P

A problem was identified and I respectfully spoke to the TDs to make them aware of the issue. Are you suggesting that because a TD has so many things to manage that we should overlook and not point out something wrong with the TD report (after the event)?

No, I am suggesting you have a little patience and understand that it takes time, often A LOT of time, for the PDGA Tour Manager, the tournament directors, the Technology Director and the Ratings Committee (all of which may be needed to handle similar issues like these) to sort problems out. Most people have "real life" and a lot more pressing issues and priorities to deal with first. If you were a tournament director yourself, there's a very good chance that you might better understand these things. And you might follow up with the folks in charge several times before starting a thread like this one on this message board.

Originally Posted by Patrick P

I like how people jump to conclusions so easily without knowing the facts. A month goes by, I'm a patient man, no reply back. Then I noticed two other events with the same issue. I then introduced this to the forums to see if anyone else was having this issue

Even without knowing the full story, I came surprisingly close, didn't I? But speaking of jumping to conclusions so easily without knowing the facts, you contacted the PDGA Tour Manager once by e-mail. Then, despite the fact that the TDs of the three events were contacted for tie-breaker confirmation and the PDGA is awaiting a response from them in order to make the necessary corrections to the official results, you didn't check again with the PDGA Tour Manager by e-mail or phone. Instead, you started this thread on the message board which resulted in accusations from others of possible laziness on the part of tournament directors and/or the PDGA Tour manager and all the negative perceptions and associations that went along with that.

Indeed, the PDGA DISCussion Board can be an extremely valuable resource for official announcements and information from the PDGA, discussion about tournaments, rules of play, etiquette and tournament standards, player and course ratings and developments in the skill-based competition system, topics of interest and about women in disc golf, international disc golf, courses, disc throwing techniques, equipment, course design & installation, E.D.G.E., PDGA Affiliate Clubs, and other miscellany.

Where I balk is folks thinking that waiting just one month on an issue like this one is being patient, and that using this message board is an acceptable vehicle to get the PDGA Office to respond to problems and complaints. In my opinion, it sets a very poor precedent when folks think that all they need to do is air a grievance here and "once it shows up in the forums though, boy do the wheels start rolling." It is a completely unacceptable expectation imo for people to think that anyone in the PDGA Office or associated with the PDGA should be scanning this message board on a daily or weekly or any regular basis in order to find and address problems encountered by PDGA members.

My $.03

[steveganz]

Originally Posted by Jeff_LaG

It is a completely unacceptable expectation imo for people to think that anyone in the PDGA Office or associated with the PDGA should be scanning this message board on a daily or weekly or any regular basis in order to find and address problems encountered by PDGA members.

I don't think anyone has that expectation.

[Patrick P]

Originally Posted by Jeff_LaG

Instead, you started this thread on the message board which resulted in accusations from others of possible laziness on the part of tournament directors and/or the PDGA Tour manager and all the negative perceptions and associations that went along with that.

I fully take no responsibility of the comments or actions of others.

Originally Posted by Jeff_LaG

Where I balk is folks thinking that waiting just one month on an issue like this one is being patient, and that using this message board is an acceptable vehicle to get the PDGA Office to respond to problems and complaints. In my opinion, it sets a very poor precedent when folks think that all they need to do is air a grievance here and "once it shows up in the forums though, boy do the wheels start rolling." It is a completely unacceptable expectation imo for people to think that anyone in the PDGA Office or associated with the PDGA should be scanning this message board on a daily or weekly or any regular basis in order to find and address problems encountered by PDGA members.

You are missing the whole point. A forum is a place that allows open discussion of a community. Personally I think if you have nothing to add to the OP, then any additional comment is deemed useless, and unnecessary. It get's real old when people waste their time busting on the messenger and provide no insite or commentary as to the message addressed.

[Jeff_LaG]

Originally Posted by steveganz

I don't think anyone has that expectation.

I could pull up dozens of examples over the last five years where that is exactly what people expected and did - and then got angry when their PDGA DISCussion board grievance went unanswered. And it will only get worse if the practice is essentially accepted and encouraged.

How about we table this debate though until next week when we can discuss it person over a Hoppyum at Valhalla.

[steveganz]

Originally Posted by Jeff_LaG

I could pull up dozens of examples over the last five years where that is exactly what people expected and did - and then got angry when their PDGA DISCussion board grievance went unanswered.

Can you pull up one example in the last 6 months? We're living in a different world than the one we were living in 5 years ago.

Originally Posted by Jeff_LaG

How about we table this debate though until next week when we can discuss it person over a Hoppyum at Valhalla.

Okay.

[keithjohnson]

Originally Posted by steveganz

We're living in a different world than the one we were living in 5 years ago.

Yeah - 5 years ago EVERYONE came to THIS website for their Disc Golf info and talk.
It's really too bad that this wasn't done 5 years ago, before all the traction was lost and other sites took over as the "it" places to discuss Disc Golf - I wonder how big it would have been.

Hopefully you can get the website back to the days of old in terms of use and I'm glad to see all of the improvements made so far since you've joined, and look forward to seeing all the new stuff you've still got planned and maybe it will bring people back.


PS..... I know the number of hits or other statistical stuff probably shows gains in the last 5 years, BUT I'm talking about PEOPLE who actually post or could possibly contribute like the 18 that are on now - and most days it is between 12-30 on - when in the past that many different people would be POSTING in 1 thread at one time and there were 300-500 members online all the time on a slow day.

PPS..... I don't drink beer, but I've like to share a Pepsi with you guys if you don't mind.

[seewhere]

did someone say BEER??? MMMMMM everyone uses facebook now a days