Ask Dave Dunipace About Innova Discs

[discgolfstaJR]

There are players throwing 150 discs already, that achieve over 400' already with current technology discs. And in some very low turn discs there is almost no other adjustment to make other than distance control. I was told that R-Pro Bosses are made with a different mold than Stars. I can control 160 R-Pro Bosses and the need for adjustment to a different mold Star Boss is large. If a durable 160 Blizzard Boss of the Star Boss flight behavior and no need to adjust was doable i'm sure i could control a 150 at least as much as a 160 R-Pro Boss. And i would try a 140 for hot rod duties, because it is good to have tail wind and uphill or over the trees options for long ranges or hyzered/anhyzered shots. Not to mention ultimate distance :-)

But there is always the chance of an errant shot or wind gust making life more difficult. That is why i'm not sure if it is a good idea for the safety and good of the sport to go too low in weights. There will always be someone trying to get an advantage throwing dangerous shots. So if a weapon is put in their hand and it gets away from them it won't be good for anyone. That is why i would like to see a manufacturer self imposed lower weight limit to not only lessen the chances of litigation and damages, but for the overall benefit to everyone, who plays.

I won't dictate any weight numbers, but am inclined to think that even a 140 disc will be dangerous in the hand of 400'+ throwers, who by now are getting more numerous. Give such a disc to a 370' crowd and a lot of people are throwing 400' and the 400' and over people are getting crazy distances at less control. So it is up to you to decide how much change is good for the sport and at which weight for given turn and wind handling for which throwing distance control over the flight is not reduced to dangerous levels.

With that said 159 Vulcan is already dangerous to 400'+ throwers as it is. It is fast and holds the turn forever, glides well and fades so late and little, that it goes a mile maximizing the glide staying close to flat longer than just about anything. No tolerance for error at all and very little gust handling or headwind toleration for 400' throwers.

[discgolfstaJR]

A situation with three consecutive storms and a lot of fallen trees on a disc golf course rose up in Tali, Helsinki, Finland regarding how long a disc golf should be. The storms still rage and i haven't been to Tali, but the results from the first storm were bad already and you couldn't drive to the parking lot. At worst 250000 households were without electricity and some without water and no phones for three days and train lines cuts. Some of these problems are ongoing for several days in some areas. The damages of the first storm equal the damages for a normal year.

With that background it is nice, that the local club may get some help in at least clearing the fallen trees eventually maybe. Think of a small club in the sticks and possibly without outside help with carnage from real storms like hurricanes. How is a small group of people gonna be able to maintain and rebuild a course after wreckage, if people get used to having most holes being 450'+ for a drive and a putt and some being two 450' shots and a putt for a birdie?

How long are those rounds gonna last and 36 holes in a day is out for many because say 12000'+ courses take so long to play. And how many people per day can such a course entertain vs one that has a higher throughput? It may not be viable for the sport to offer megacomplexes everywhere and make the players expect it everywhere with their forever sailing discs.

How long is it sane to make longer and longer discs? For earning money giving people what they want in longer discs is profitable in the short term, but are you gonna hurt the future of the sport and cut future growth or even sales in worst case scenario? That isn't likely but something to keep in mind.

[davei]

Originally Posted by discgolfstaJR

A situation with three consecutive storms and a lot of fallen trees on a disc golf course rose up in Tali, Helsinki, Finland regarding how long a disc golf should be. The storms still rage and i haven't been to Tali, but the results from the first storm were bad already and you couldn't drive to the parking lot. At worst 250000 households were without electricity and some without water and no phones for three days and train lines cuts. Some of these problems are ongoing for several days in some areas. The damages of the first storm equal the damages for a normal year.

With that background it is nice, that the local club may get some help in at least clearing the fallen trees eventually maybe. Think of a small club in the sticks and possibly without outside help with carnage from real storms like hurricanes. How is a small group of people gonna be able to maintain and rebuild a course after wreckage, if people get used to having most holes being 450'+ for a drive and a putt and some being two 450' shots and a putt for a birdie?

How long are those rounds gonna last and 36 holes in a day is out for many because say 12000'+ courses take so long to play. And how many people per day can such a course entertain vs one that has a higher throughput? It may not be viable for the sport to offer megacomplexes everywhere and make the players expect it everywhere with their forever sailing discs.

How long is it sane to make longer and longer discs? For earning money giving people what they want in longer discs is profitable in the short term, but are you gonna hurt the future of the sport and cut future growth or even sales in worst case scenario? That isn't likely but something to keep in mind.

You know, I heard exactly the same thing in 1983. However, just to be clear, it has nothing to do with money. It has everything to do with disc golf taking over the world. There are very few sports that engage so many different kinds of people. Not all courses are long. Some are short. Some are woody. Some are open. Some are flat. Some are mountainous. Some are rough. Some are grassy and hilly like my home course La Mirada. Some people like stable discs. Some people like unstable finesse discs.

Some people are going to throw wild regardless of whether they throw a heavy or a light disc. A wildly thrown light disc will do less damage than a wildly thrown heavy disc. Just play catch with the two and you will see the difference. These light fast discs don't go very far for the distance disenfranchised, but they do tend to bring a smile to their faces. I wouldn't worry about the 400ft throwers, they don't need any help anyway.

Don't worry. Disc golf is too great a sport to fail. Yes, there are irresponsible people, who will do irresponsible things, but the rest of us should not let those few ruin it for the world. Or you.

[bruce_brakel]

Originally Posted by davei

I have a question for those of you who follow this thread. I wonder how much interest there might be for light weight Champion discs. By "light", I mean virtually any weight down to 100 gms or so. And, keep in mind, 140 gms is about the cutoff weight for floating in water. Discs below this will float. This might be any disc, but it really is aimed at the higher speed drivers that have only been available in higher weights.

So, the question is: If we could make these light weight Champion discs, would anyone be interested. Assume they feel and fly the same as heavier discs of the same type.

Dave, my daughter Kelsey has been throwing the few stable 150 Champion drivers that you make for years, mainly the T-Bird and sometimes the Firebird. She has a stash of them somewhere. She's throwing T-Birds 330 feet these days on open holes with good tees, and sometimes longer. She would REALLY like to test throw any 150ish Champion wide wing drivers you might be making a little bit above, at or below the stability of a 150 Champ T-Bird. I think she could learn to throw a 150 Champion wide wing driver 400 feet. She would probably buy 50 of anything she really liked from Innova East on my account [with her money].

She'll be playing MA1 at Worlds this summer. She's 928 rated right now, 14th on the World Ranking chart and mostly playing MA2.

[MrJB]

Hey Dave,

Can you make the Zephyr in a champion material? I love to play catch at the beach with them, but if it hits a rock or cliff, the stability just goes so quick. It would be nice to have a champion one!

[drdisc]

Dave, can we expect Champion Vulcans anytime soon?

[davei]

Originally Posted by MrJB

Hey Dave,

Can you make the Zephyr in a champion material? I love to play catch at the beach with them, but if it hits a rock or cliff, the stability just goes so quick. It would be nice to have a champion one!

We just made some that will be available at the Innova Pro Shop

[davei]

Originally Posted by drdisc

Dave, can we expect Champion Vulcans anytime soon?

Probably soon. They will be put in the regular line up.

[rickm]

any info on the dominator and mamba dave?
flight number expectations?

[MrJB]

Cool Dave! I just checked the site, couldn't find them, any idea when they will show up?

[davei]

Originally Posted by rickm

any info on the dominator and mamba dave?
flight number expectations?

We've been testing the Mamba and Dominator as well as new versions of the Champion Flattop Stingrays and Cobras for the past three weeks or so.

The Mamba was designed to give maximum distance for minimal effort. I believe the numbers are 11,5,-5,1. The Mamba has more high speed turn than any other of our long range drivers, so it is not meant to be thrown into a headwind. For those without much driving speed, it will be a blessing. It will add distance. For the medium armed crowd, it will shape long lines for turnovers and straight ahead shots, as well as big rolls. For those with big arms...not for them unless they want a real long fast turning roller. The Mamba will be released first in Champion around the end of February.

The Dominator occupies the same basic slot as the Groove, but no groove. It is somewhat faster than the Groove, (or Boss or Ape for that matter). Similar speed as the Vulcan or Katana, but more high speed stability than either. The Dominator will be released first in Champion in weights from 175gms down to 130s in Blizzard Champion. We have not established a release date yet for the Dominator. Probably some time in Spring.

[rickm]

thx for the reply dave. so are either of these new discs going to have the vulcan type top or is it a new one? new wings? what wings are being used?

also,any scheduled discs that would be in the fairway driver category? nnew mids or any new putters in the works? there have been lots of high speed stuff aside from the lycan

[davei]

Originally Posted by rickm

thx for the reply dave. so are either of these new discs going to have the vulcan type top or is it a new one? new wings? what wings are being used?

also,any scheduled discs that would be in the fairway driver category? nnew mids or any new putters in the works? there have been lots of high speed stuff aside from the lycan

Neither driver will have a Vulcan type top. Wings?

TL+ was just made a few months ago. No new putters. The Yeti is the newest.

The new Champion Stingray and Cobras fly as if they were new. The Cobra flies like a long Roc and the Stingray flies like a shorter Leopard. These are from the Flat top Ontario mold, but really don't fly like their DX brothers. I can't turn the Cobra over at all, and the Stingray is pretty darn straight, rather than a turning machine like the original or DX.

As far as actual fairway drivers; the FD Jackal we made for Discmania is like a cross between a Leopard and TeeBird. It will come out in March, I believe.

[John Hernlund]

Hi Dave,

I'm curious about the process of making the Blizzard discs. I imagine that in the ordinary process of making solid discs, one would usually would press out any air bubbles that result from melting the input plastic pellets, before injection into the mold, and that most injection molding machines probably have a mechanism for pressing out unwanted air. In the Blizzard case, you guys manage to get air into the injected plastic, but it is distributed in small bubbles, and you also seem to have some sort of control on bubble sizes (the blems show a range of variability and experimentation). Getting a frothy mixture of air and molten plastic with uniform small bubbles is probably very difficult to do just by mixing air and plastic pellets together (like one might do in a pot). I'm going to make a wild guess that maybe the bubbles are created by some sort of additive in the plastic itself that generates gases during injection (perhaps triggered by the decompression that occurs once the plastic enters the mold and undergoes radial expansion?). For example, you could produce the plastic in a high pressure CO2 chamber, and the gases would be dissolved into the plastic itself prior to injection molding. This would produce a more uniform bubble distribution when the bubbles are exsolving internally from the plastic itself. The degree to which the bubbles are stretched (elliptical vs. spherical) is then an indication of how far the bubbles were transported under deformation (stretching) in the injected plastic from the point where they initially exsolved (they should always begin spherical) and/or past the critical point where the plastic rheology is soft enough to relax deformed shapes back to spherical (owing to surface tension). In any case, the excess pressure of the bubbles seems to be an easy way to explain the bubble dome shape of the flight plate...it makes the flight plate try to expand outward, but since it is confined by the relatively rigid rim, it bows upward instead.

Anyways, is there any chance you could enlighten us about this process? It is very cool to behold, and a very fun new technology developed by Innova. Or perhaps it is your trade secret, that you do not wish to reveal. Can't hurt to ask.

I've picked up a 140g Wraith and 150g Katana (with the cool Hero Discs stamps), and both fly very nicely. I had some fantastic downwind hyzer flip throws with the Katana, while a bubble-topped Wraith flies high speed stable with a tight fade. The biggest advantage I've seen from throwing these discs is:
1) Great distance with less power, although good form is still required.
2) Much easier to throw over high objects/up steep grades.
3) Less tired after throwing these all day.

[davei]

Originally Posted by John Hernlund

Hi Dave,

I'm curious about the process of making the Blizzard discs. I imagine that in the ordinary process of making solid discs, one would usually would press out any air bubbles that result from melting the input plastic pellets, before injection into the mold, and that most injection molding machines probably have a mechanism for pressing out unwanted air. In the Blizzard case, you guys manage to get air into the injected plastic, but it is distributed in small bubbles, and you also seem to have some sort of control on bubble sizes (the blems show a range of variability and experimentation). Getting a frothy mixture of air and molten plastic with uniform small bubbles is probably very difficult to do just by mixing air and plastic pellets together (like one might do in a pot). I'm going to make a wild guess that maybe the bubbles are created by some sort of additive in the plastic itself that generates gases during injection (perhaps triggered by the decompression that occurs once the plastic enters the mold and undergoes radial expansion?). For example, you could produce the plastic in a high pressure CO2 chamber, and the gases would be dissolved into the plastic itself prior to injection molding. This would produce a more uniform bubble distribution when the bubbles are exsolving internally from the plastic itself. The degree to which the bubbles are stretched (elliptical vs. spherical) is then an indication of how far the bubbles were transported under deformation (stretching) in the injected plastic from the point where they initially exsolved (they should always begin spherical) and/or past the critical point where the plastic rheology is soft enough to relax deformed shapes back to spherical (owing to surface tension). In any case, the excess pressure of the bubbles seems to be an easy way to explain the bubble dome shape of the flight plate...it makes the flight plate try to expand outward, but since it is confined by the relatively rigid rim, it bows upward instead.

Anyways, is there any chance you could enlighten us about this process? It is very cool to behold, and a very fun new technology developed by Innova. Or perhaps it is your trade secret, that you do not wish to reveal. Can't hurt to ask.

I've picked up a 140g Wraith and 150g Katana (with the cool Hero Discs stamps), and both fly very nicely. I had some fantastic downwind hyzer flip throws with the Katana, while a bubble-topped Wraith flies high speed stable with a tight fade. The biggest advantage I've seen from throwing these discs is:
1) Great distance with less power, although good form is still required.
2) Much easier to throw over high objects/up steep grades.
3) Less tired after throwing these all day.

you are correct about several things, especially about the experimentation and difficulty. Fortunately, my son is a little smarter than I am and can hold more variables in his head than I can. He is largely responsible for the evolution of the technique. The molding has evolved into, what I think is an acceptable and marketable product that does not have bubbles in the flight plate, just the rim. We started with bubbles everywhere, but that often produced unacceptable visual results. I've heard lots of speculation about what the bubbles do dynamically to the flight. Interesting at times. The ultimate shape is not due to the bubbles, but other factors that occur with trying to control them. Early on in the evolution of Champion plastic we had unwanted bubbles and fought to get rid of them. Now, we are embracing and controlling the pattern. I think it's very cool and am very proud of my son, who is the architect of the technique.

[kwibby1]

Originally Posted by davei

you are correct about several things, especially about the experimentation and difficulty. Fortunately, my son is a little smarter than I am and can hold more variables in his head than I can. He is largely responsible for the evolution of the technique. The molding has evolved into, what I think is an acceptable and marketable product that does not have bubbles in the flight plate, just the rim. We started with bubbles everywhere, but that often produced unacceptable visual results. I've heard lots of speculation about what the bubbles do dynamically to the flight. Interesting at times. The ultimate shape is not due to the bubbles, but other factors that occur with trying to control them. Early on in the evolution of Champion plastic we had unwanted bubbles and fought to get rid of them. Now, we are embracing and controlling the pattern. I think it's very cool and am very proud of my son, who is the architect of the technique.

now if the bubbles were filled with helium..... i'd get an extra 20 feet

[JenniferB]

Whom do I have to bribe to get some glow panthers?

[mattdisc]

Dave did I hear you say flat top Champion Stingrays?? When can we get our hands on them?

[davei]

Originally Posted by mattdisc

Dave did I hear you say flat top Champion Stingrays?? When can we get our hands on them?

Final Nine will be selling them as a fundraiser for the St Patricks. Probably starting next week.

[John Hernlund]

Thanks for the responses Dave, it is great to engage in this kind of dialogue.

Originally Posted by davei

...Fortunately, my son is a little smarter than I am and can hold more variables in his head than I can. He is largely responsible for the evolution of the technique...Early on in the evolution of Champion plastic we had unwanted bubbles and fought to get rid of them. Now, we are embracing and controlling the pattern...I think it's very cool and am very proud of my son, who is the architect of the technique.

Great story...and nice to see that Innova will be in good hands well into the future!

Originally Posted by davei

...does not have bubbles in the flight plate, just the rim...I've heard lots of speculation about what the bubbles do dynamically to the flight...

This is pretty standard physics, in terms of how the disc's mass distribution will affect turn/fade. The moment of inertia of a uniformly flat disc (e.g., hockey puck) is:
m*r^2/4,
where (m=mass, r=radius). The moment of inertia of a ring (e.g., Aerobie ring) is:
m*r^2/2,
i.e., twice that of a uniform flat disc. The moment of inertia of an Innova disc is the sum of the flight plate (flat disc-like) and rim (ring-like):
m_fp*r_fp^2/4+m_rim*r_rim^2/2,
where _fp=flight plate and _rim=rim (more precisely, r_rim is the mass-weighted radius of the rim). If the mold is the same, then r_fp and r_rim do not change with addition of bubbles, but m_fp and m_rim do change. Changing the mass of the flight plate (by altering the bubble density) therefore has half the sensitivity upon the total moment of inertia of the disc than does changing the bubble density in the rim.

Translation back to ordinary English: For a disc with the exact same shape, adding bubbles to the rim will make the disc turn/fade more than adding bubbles also to the flight plate. I predict that this is only a weak effect, and that subtle changes in shape will probably be the more important factor owing to the strong non-linearity of aerodynamic flows and forces.

[yrnmbrsup]

Hey Dave, I came across a 2010 Japan Open pre release test material Katana. Just wondering how many of these were run with this stamp and this plastic. And how much these beautys go for. Thanks.......................

[davei]

You'd have to check with Hero Discs for that information. Sorry.

[fmags87]

what are your plans in regards to the gator mids and there plstic types star is to much and my mother ruins dx lol j/k maybe a pro or champ

[gokayaksteven]

champ gators would be nice.
also- i think you guys should make a 180 gram diameter disc that is faster than a roc, with a wider rim. like a stable leopard-roc combo.
my 2 cents

[davei]

Originally Posted by fmags87

what are your plans in regards to the gator mids and there plstic types star is to much and my mother ruins dx lol j/k maybe a pro or champ

Regular Pro is unlikely. Champion is a possibility. Erik takes requests at the Factory Store. If he gets enough, it could happen.

[fmags87]

Right on thank you Dave

[drdisc]

Originally Posted by gokayaksteven

champ gators would be nice.
also- i think you guys should make a 180 gram diameter disc that is faster than a roc, with a wider rim. like a stable leopard-roc combo.
my 2 cents

Like a Scorpion?

[fmags87]

Dave so i went out and got a new gator today ad it is domeyer than my last not complaining just wondering why, both dx, rim also felt a little diff. Just curious, both max weights also

[davei]

Originally Posted by fmags87

Dave so i went out and got a new gator today ad it is domeyer than my last not complaining just wondering why, both dx, rim also felt a little diff. Just curious, both max weights also

Could be an older run versus a newer run. Newer Gators have blunter noses and are more over stable. Could just be plastic variations.

[pterodactyl]

Just picked up a Boss, Wraith, and Katana in blizzard material. Can't wait to give them some test flights this afternoon after work.