Ask Dave Dunipace About Innova Discs

[Paul Taylor]

Originally Posted by davei

I have a question for those of you who follow this thread. I wonder how much interest there might be for light weight Champion discs. By "light", I mean virtually any weight down to 100 gms or so. And, keep in mind, 140 gms is about the cutoff weight for floating in water. Discs below this will float. This might be any disc, but it really is aimed at the higher speed drivers that have only been available in higher weights.

So, the question is: If we could make these light weight Champion discs, would anyone be interested. Assume they feel and fly the same as heavier discs of the same type.

This sounds great, I would like to see more over-stable discs, such as the X-Cal, Tee Rex, Ape and other faster speed discs between 150-160 that fly the same as their heavy weight brothers.

[Cooper]

Originally Posted by davei

I have a question for those of you who follow this thread. I wonder how much interest there might be for light weight Champion discs. By "light", I mean virtually any weight down to 100 gms or so. And, keep in mind, 140 gms is about the cutoff weight for floating in water. Discs below this will float. This might be any disc, but it really is aimed at the higher speed drivers that have only been available in higher weights.

So, the question is: If we could make these light weight Champion discs, would anyone be interested. Assume they feel and fly the same as heavier discs of the same type.

It'd be interesting, though I don't think I'd make it a regular habit to buy them.

[pterodactyl]

The older I get, the lower I go in regard to disc weight.

[davei]

What weight long range driver are you throwing Kenny?

[Cyoda44]

Originally Posted by davei

I have a question for those of you who follow this thread. I wonder how much interest there might be for light weight Champion discs. By "light", I mean virtually any weight down to 100 gms or so. And, keep in mind, 140 gms is about the cutoff weight for floating in water. Discs below this will float. This might be any disc, but it really is aimed at the higher speed drivers that have only been available in higher weights.

So, the question is: If we could make these light weight Champion discs, would anyone be interested. Assume they feel and fly the same as heavier discs of the same type.

Dave,
I would buy all the same discs I currently use in a lighter weight. 150-160g

[Martin_Bohn]

Originally Posted by davei

I have a question for those of you who follow this thread. I wonder how much interest there might be for light weight Champion discs. By "light", I mean virtually any weight down to 100 gms or so. And, keep in mind, 140 gms is about the cutoff weight for floating in water. Discs below this will float. This might be any disc, but it really is aimed at the higher speed drivers that have only been available in higher weights.

So, the question is: If we could make these light weight Champion discs, would anyone be interested. Assume they feel and fly the same as heavier discs of the same type.

you would have a big market in geographical area with higher altitudes for those kind of discs.
on the flip side, i found the same discs i throw here in utah which are lighter weight champion (160-165 gr) dont work at sea level, literally, unless with a tailwind. so if you make even lighter champion discs i imagine everyone living at altitudes higher than, say 3000 ft would love something like that. i know i would. and yes the older i get the lighter my plastic is getting.

[JenniferB]

I am getting my pro leopards out to 300, finally. The 170ish pro vulcan is the only high speed driver that I have found doesn't act severely overstable for me, and I can get it out to 350-375 pretty regularly. The premium plastic discs seem much too stable.

I'm building a glow bag, but I can't seem to find a glow leopard or glow vulcan in pro plastic. Does such a thing exist? Is there some reason they can't be made in pro plastic? Are there other glow discs you think I might try for these slots? Thanks.

[davei]

Originally Posted by JenniferB

I am getting my pro leopards out to 300, finally. The 170ish pro vulcan is the only high speed driver that I have found doesn't act severely overstable for me, and I can get it out to 350-375 pretty regularly. The premium plastic discs seem much too stable.

I'm building a glow bag, but I can't seem to find a glow leopard or glow vulcan in pro plastic. Does such a thing exist? Is there some reason they can't be made in pro plastic? Are there other glow discs you think I might try for these slots? Thanks.

We don't usually do glow in Pro as it doesn't work very well. You can try any regular DX glow. DX has the possible benefit for you of wearing in so that it won't be severely over stable in high speed drivers. Also, you might want to try lighter weights in high speed drivers.

[TheOtherBill]

So, the question is: If we could make these light weight Champion discs, would anyone be interested. Assume they feel and fly the same as heavier discs of the same type.

I can think of 8-10 people I regularly throw with that would be interested in lighter weight discs in a more durable plastic, myself included. Some just don't have the arm speed but don't want to be told to buy a Leopard instead of a Katana.

[mattdisc]

Dave I already throw discs in the low 60's and I can see down the road going lighter. I throw Valks and Wraiths as distance drivers.

Thanks for the awesome Xmas disc, I got a red glitter champ Leopard! Way cool!

Matt

[davei]

I guess I could have asked the question a little differently. One thing I want to know is if people are interested or know of others who would be interested in light weight Champion long range drivers. The other question would be probably a little trickier as people might not have an idea of what weight is actually best for them until they try. But that question is: what weight do you think would work best for you?

The fact of the matter is that we are able, (with some difficultly), to make virtually any weight Boss, Destroyer, Katana, etc. in Champion down to about 110 gms. If we bother to go to the research time and expense, will disc golf respond to this new product or will they continue to follow the mantra of "heavier is better".

Personally, I have tried every weight there is in our long range drivers and find that I am getting better results with 150 gms than I was with 170 gms. As a side note: I had Bobby Musick try a 155 and 157 gm Boss at La Mirada last weekend and he was not only able to throw it immediately, but he threw it better than he threw his heavies. He was just as accurate, but longer.

So far, I can only see three disadvantages and at least four advantages. The disadvantages are: they don't penetrate leaves and other foliage as well, they don't forgive poor throwing (flutter) as well, they may not be as good in the wind, (although this has not been shown yet). So far, any wind disadvantage seems to be tied to flutter. And, also tied to flutter is that they don't work as well for side arms because it is too easy to flutter.

The advantages I see are: they are much easier to whip, they carry farther, they make my bag lighter when I have several, they do well with hitting trees as they don't seem to taco as much, they seem to have a little less low speed overstability. Subjectively, they are more fun and I don't seem to get as tired.

[pterodactyl]

The main problem that I've had in the past is that 150s tend to get stuck in trees easier and they don't push through the foilage, like you stated above. Another problem I have with real light discs is that I tend to pull them, but I think it is just a timing issue.

[billmh]

The super stable Destroyers that you made for the Japan Open in the 158-160 range have become my go-to over stable distance driver. They don't flip for me. Great in the wind. Go a mile. Clearly you can do this, and I look forward to experimenting further with lighter drivers that retain predictable flight.

[drdisc]

The demographics for lighter discs are the exploding Seniors and emerging Juniors.
In the years to come , those numbers will increase exponetially.

[20460chase]

Originally Posted by drdisc

The demographics for lighter discs are the exploding Seniors and emerging Juniors.
In the years to come , those numbers will increase exponetially.

Word. This is the best post yet. Believe it Dave.

[sprdgr]

So clearly the new Blizzard Champion line with the Boss, Wraith, Katana and TeeDevil are the forerunners of this new technology? theory? not sure what to call it but I can't wait to try them!

[davei]

Originally Posted by sprdgr

So clearly the new Blizzard Champion line with the Boss, Wraith, Katana and TeeDevil are the forerunners of this new technology? theory? not sure what to call it but I can't wait to try them!

Yes, we have X-outs available in the Factory Store as a test market.

[Martin_Bohn]

dave, would a monster be available in lightweight? thats just a meathook for me, but if you lighten it up......hmmmm!

[davei]

Originally Posted by Martin_Bohn

dave, would a monster be available in lightweight? thats just a meathook for me, but if you lighten it up......hmmmm!

The Monster is not in the schedule yet. The most overstable disc in the schedule so far is the Ape. We will try that one January. After that, it just depends what comes up and how well the first ones are received.

[bcary93]

I use star and champion fairway drivers in the 150's. The lightest hi speed discs I've found are Wraiths in the mid 160's and Boss @ 169-170. I would like to use drivers in the 150s at least and would be willing to try lower weights as well. I know several others who use lighter weight drivers (150s - 160s) and would like to see you try this.

[sprdgr]

Can I assume that it's whatever new blend of lightweight Champion type plastic that is making the flight characteristics of the new Blizzard Line similar to their heavy counterparts? Also, are what appear to be massive air bubbles in the flight plate of discs in the Factory store simply why these particular ones are x-outs or do the bubbles have something to do with "technology"?

[davei]

Originally Posted by sprdgr

Can I assume that it's whatever new blend of lightweight Champion type plastic that is making the flight characteristics of the new Blizzard Line similar to their heavy counterparts? Also, are what appear to be massive air bubbles in the flight plate of discs in the Factory store simply why these particular ones are x-outs or do the bubbles have something to do with "technology"?

It is very difficult to use this technology and get a good cosmetic appearance and feel. The X-Parts are those that don't make the cut. Not only are there a lot of X-Parts, there are a lot that don't even make that cut.

[sprdgr]

So is the "Blizzard" in the flight plate (if that's why it's called that) actual air bubbles or is that just the way this plastic sets up?

[davei]

Originally Posted by sprdgr

So is the "Blizzard" in the flight plate (if that's why it's called that) actual air bubbles or is that just the way this plastic sets up?

I don't know what the bubbles are made of and they are throughout the plastic including the rim. They sometimes don't show up as much in the rim.

[John Hernlund]

Dave, I heard recently that Stancil Johnson was able to throw one of your more recent runs of ultralight R-Pro Boss (135 I think, with the firm rim) over 300 ft. So its great for older gentlemen.

Younger kids (age 8-12-ish) could also probably huck a lot further if the discs were lighter. And they would be rewarded with great flights by releasing the disc at just the right angles.

[discgolfstaJR]

I would absolutely try lighter discs, because i already have. 137 R-Pro Boss is a very dangerous disc for passers by and scores for a 400'+ thrower even in calm weather. It so unforgiving and any headwind gusts will send those 100'+ off to the right. I had a gust happen to it at around 200' of flipped to flat and locked to flat flight. The disc wound up 100' to the right at 410' of distance.

Public safety and the image of disc golf would suffer from inevitable accidents if people with too much power for so fast and unpredictable discs would use the flip machines regularly. Of course nobody competent high powered player would, because finicky discs hurt the score as well.

If turn and fade characteristics of max weight brethren could be maintained the safety concerns and the need to baby the discs would go away for calm weather. In anecdotal evidence based on my throwing golf discs from 130 and up in gusty sea side courses all my 9 years of playing i am convinced that the current generation of discs in light weights does not fare well in gusty conditions. You can't predict gusts and it again becomes a safety and image issue along with scores.

I have had two Star Teebirds in 150 and save for the speed they started out similar to full weight ones in turn and fade. If i pulled power they flew as far and with similar lines to max weight ones in calm weather. In winds they get buffeted in every wind direction and flipped in heavy gusts from every direction except rear quarter. The glide is better in rear winds. There are many molds that behave the same in 150 vs max weight.

Wind molds should be different from calm weather discs no matter the weight. For safety, scores and predictability i would always throw heavy discs in the wind. I have no hesitation about throwing light discs in calm conditions. Bag will be lighter for it :-) I'm injured for life and approaching masters age so sparing health for the rest of the life playing disc golf is a concern and not needing to rip so hard for the same distance is a boon.

For scoring unchanged turn characteristics are absolutely vital. If you can pull that off the weight becomes an interesting issue. Courses would need to get longer to maintain similar pars and challenges and that may not be practical for the growth and athleticism (it's a word now, because you read it in the internet).

I don't think people can easily gauge, what the proper weight range for which disc is, because the turn and fade would be different from anything they've tried in traditional molds in light weights. I would assume 140 is still the absolute minimum for safety and athletic and acerage of courses concerns along with the safety of the public outside pay for play courses. I would not like the officials regulating light discs as lethal weapons needing to be confined to bunkers like shooting :-)

[oklaoutlaw]

Originally Posted by davei

But that question is: what weight do you think would work best for you?

The fact of the matter is that we are able, (with some difficultly), to make virtually any weight Boss, Destroyer, Katana, etc. in Champion down to about 110 gms. If we bother to go to the research time and expense, will disc golf respond to this new product or will they continue to follow the mantra of "heavier is better".

Hi Dave,

At 53 and having torn my rotator 3 times in the past, I can't throw max weight discs very far any more. I am lucky to get 250 out of them. However, after picking up light plastic, 150 - 160 gm., like the R-Pro Boss, I can once again throw in the 350 range. I also have been throwing a 160 gm. Star Vulcan that has given me greater distance than the Boss. I only dream of what things would have been like had these discs been around when I was 25 and throwing Kitty Hawks and Super Puppies in the Oklahoma winds.

I would love to see and throw any other discs you guys can manufacture in the light weights like the Destroyer and Katana. Also, as far as the wind, I can throw the light Bosses and Vulcans into a stiff Oklahoma headwind (20 mph+) and have the same success controlling it as I do on a fairly calm day. You just have to throw it with a little more hyser out of the hand to compensate for the turn.

So, please do not hesitate to produce lower weights, even some of the young kids around here (SW OK) have started to try the light Bosses and Vulcans and like them.

Thanks for all you do.

[davei]

OK,

We haven't tried the Vulcans yet, but I think it will happen fairly soon. Most of the Blizzard discs I have been testing of late are in the mid to upper 150s. These definitely fly like their heavier counter parts. The lighter 140s seem to be a little more mellow, as do the 130s. Might be something for just about every throwing level.

Guys with 400+ throwing range can easily adapt to the high 150s throwing Bosses or Destroyers.

Those with 350 to 400ft range will be able to throw low 150s to high 150s.

Those 300 to 350ft should probably use high 140s

Those under 300ft can use 130 to 140gms, which also float in water.

Sidearm throwers might not benefit at all unless they have a clean throw. These lighter discs don't forgive off axis torque, (flutter) as well as heavy discs.

[mf100forever]

Dave, what about durability, did you test it? Feels that a lot a air bubbles will make the discs less durable?

[davei]

Originally Posted by mf100forever

Dave, what about durability, did you test it? Feels that a lot a air bubbles will make the discs less durable?

The durability, so far, is very good. It may turn out not to have as much scuff resistance as regular Champion, but certainly has been standing up to tree hits and such. And it is way more durable than DX or Pro. These were the only two materials we were previously able to make light weight long range drivers in.