Island Greens

[ChrisWoj]

You're torturing me here! God that is BEAUTIFUL.

[Pennekamp]

Must see more pics....PLEASE!!

[RustyP]

Can't believe I missed sandalman course pics...NOOOO!

repost?

[Mystery]

It sounds like we need a "Best Practices" manual to standardize these type of things.

IMO:
Tee shot goes OB? Go to the DZ, shooting 3.

Simple, clean. No chance of rewriting the OB rules.

"Fun shots" are for practice. During the round, it should be more serious.

I couldn't agree more. The course that I designed has a basket situated on an actual island. The length of the hole is only 262 ft, but the island is only about 60 ft deep. When a player is OB short of the island, they retee with one throw penalty from the shorter tees (160 ft). The fun aspect is in the initial tee shot, but the round should not be defined by one hole. Take another hole that has an OB that is lateral to the hole. If you continually throw OB, it is because you have not adjusted your throws. Yet in that case, you continually advance towards the hole. You are punished for not making the correct shot each time. That is not usually the case in the island green holes. Your punishment is for not making the same shot, over and over. I think that you should take the drop and move up. If you have issues beyond that, make adjustments to size of the island (can't in our case), location of the drop zone, or pin placement. #17 at USDGC should play significantly different with the pin closer to the waters edge than closer to the forward OB.

http://www.ldga.org/17.html

[Mystery]

Just a little bit of home.

[pgcarlos]

I agree that island shots look cool and are fun but; how cool is it to lose discs in a pond or lake. It can be a very expensive hole it 3 out of 4 people on the card throw into the water. My family and I just played Emerald Isle in Oceanside CA and both kids and the wife threw into the pond. I talked to a local who said that pond didn't have water in it last week.

[sandalman]

get the Quest discs that float. they fly every bit as good as any other discs, and some of them especially the ultralights are extra-perfect for young'ns and rec women.

[davidsauls]

....keeping in mind that floating discs tend to bob around in the middle of the lake, smirking at you. Unless you've got a boat, it can be a long wait until you get them back. Of course, it comes in handy that on windy days they get to the shore much quicker---and it's those windy days that you're more likely to put them in the lake in the first place.

[Vanessa]

Solution for island holes: Get a retrieving dog (we'll loan you ours) with a soft mouth and an endless appetite for swimming. We play at lot at Trophy Lakes in Charleston SC ... yes, there's a lot of water on the course. We taught Cleo the dog to retrieve from the water a few years ago when our sons were learning how to play. They threw Dragons in, she went and got them out. They threw Dragons back in, she went and got them out again. Cleo thinks this wonderful game is about the most fun a dog can have!

Whenever we take her to Trophy, she retrieves something for someone ... there's no counting the number of discs shes gotten back for perfect strangers as well as family and club members.

Only problem is, she knows where all the "likely retrieving spots" are on the course, and she whines and begs and barks when we get to those holes so that we'll throw something in and she can go do her appointed job. On balance, however, she sure saved us a lot of money when the kids were a little bit younger and threw a little more wildly! Maybe even enough to cover her food bills...

David, we'll have to bring her to Stony Hill once you've got the pond in. When you have events there, you can just station her at the pond holes and let her retrieve during the rounds!

[davidsauls]

I've got a better deal. I'll jump in the pond if the dog will pull discs out of the briars!

[Mystery]

get the Quest discs that float. they fly every bit as good as any other discs, and some of them especially the ultralights are extra-perfect for young'ns and rec women.

The only difference between a floating disc and one that goes to the bottom is that you can see the floater.

[dandaman1]

At my home course we have a hole that is relatively boring-straight 310 ft from the pro teepad that plays across a small valley. This hole is easy, with no trees and very little to think about. However recently at our last tournament we 'island' the green off with electrical flags and rope, thereby creating an island for players to think about. It worked out so well that we are going to make the island permenant by digging a foot wide trench around the basket that is approx. 1 ft. deep with a 100ft (approx.) diameter. The ditch will be filled by nearby mulch and will give players the option to playing an island green.

[cgkdisc]

Consider reading the article on the evolution of hole 17 at the USDGC and reconsider the dynamics of your hole if you're planning an "all or none" type hole versus having an optional lay-up area which works better, especially for a hole that long.

[ChrisWoj]

For a longer island hole I like the idea of an island that is relatively narrow horizontally but very deep, say a 280 foot hole with a 50 foot wide island that begins about 80-100 feet short of the pin and extends 20 past the pin. A course up in Michigan, Independence Lake, has an island similar to that. Plays very nicely.

[Smitty2004]

We have a very short course in my home town. We are trying to do some things to make the course unique and a little tougher.


We have already made a USDGC type elevated basket.

My idea I had today was this. Make an "Island type" green. Similar to the bamboo hole at USDGC. The fence would be much smaller and much lower. It may be made out of normal chain link type fence. Then plant some kind of plantlife that would grow and overtake the fence.

Are there any of these type greens out there. I would like to see a picture of it if you have one.

[gnduke]

I have had luck with abelia. It hedges well and is somewhat resilient. It is a little brittle for this application though.

[warwickdan]

I'm in the early stages of design for my "Oasis at Warwick" course.

I am planning on having a few "island greens" in between some semi-marshy areas where I can control the location of the green and the tees, as well as the shape of the green and drop zones.

i've got plenty of ideas and have played plenty of courses with island greens over the years, so I'm not a novice.

but i would be curious to know if there are "formulas" or ratios whereby the size/shape of a green corresponds with the distance from the tee.

E.G. our first hole (Pro Tee) will probably play 275 feet to the pin. i want to locate the pin in the front left corner of the island, with the depth of the green being deeper as one goes further away (to the right) from the pin. for a 275-foot carry to an island green, what sort of perimeter dimensions make sense? im thinking the green will be 75 feet wide; 50 feet deep on the left (pin) side of the green and 75 feet deep on the right side.

thoughts?

[wsfaplau]

That seems plenty big for me.

Can you go out in a field and stake out a green that size, get a bunch of golfers, and figure it out?

[stevenpwest]

Try it out in a field. My guess is you'll need a much bigger island.

According to my throw simulator, for a circular island with the target in the center and the front lip 275 feet from the tee, the island needs to be 180 feet in diameter for 2/3 of advanced players to land on the island with their first throw. (This places the target at 365 feet from the tee, 90 feet in from the front of the island.) That's about 25,000 square feet, where your proposed island is only about 5,000.

Now, if the distance to the target is 275 feet, you can get by with a 140 foot diameter - or 15,000 square foot – island. (The front lip will be 205 feet from the tee.)

http://stevewestdiscgolf.com/ThrowSimulator.aspx

[Karl]

It's my belief (and via practical experience) that most "decent players" - who can throw 275 feet and not have to execute a full throw - will miss "left and right" by more than they will miss "short and long" (especially if the prevailing wind is l to r or r to l). Thus if your goal is to have a "fair" but minimal-sized green, make it wider than deep (for equal dispersion of splash-downs).
This, of course, is for bh'ers and fh'ers; if considering oh'er (...and who might that be? ), the opposite is true (will miss long and short probably more than left and right).

Karl

[cgkdisc]

How about some real world data? Hole 16 on Highbridge Gold is a wide open 270 feet with an 8 foot net drop to a roughly circular island green around 70 ft diameter. The pin is on a 2' elevated mound located 15' from the front edge. The moat surrounding the green is about 20' wide. Only the moat is OB so players can play up short of the moat and then attempt a long putt/short approach at the pin. If players go in the moat off the tee, they next play from the white tee 185' out as the drop zone.

For Blue level 950 rating, the scoring average was 2.86 with 36% 2s, 37% 3s, 21% 4s and 5% 5s. For Gold level, it's 2.60 average.

[warwickdan]

those dimensions sound pretty close to what i have initially carved. it is 275 feet to the front of the island from the pro tee. (this is the PRO tee, not the advanced tee).

the pin is 25 feet from the left side and the front side. it is 50 feet from the back side and the right side.

the drop zone is 180 feet from the closest corner of the green to the drop zone and the approach to the green is from the side rather than from head-on like the pro tee is.

i only carved the green last weekend so there is limited playability to tweak dimensions and tee and pin locations. havent yet figured out what happens if one misses the green on the initial or subsequent drives. i.e. when does one go to the drop zone... also havent figured out yet what to do about the short tee (aka the drop zone) as a total novice cant be expected to throw 180 feet to an island green. the reason for the design of this hole is to utilize a big wet area with random dry areas (islands) that sits right at the entrance to the 47-acre property so the hole will be very visible from the main road and the 3rd hole of the warwick course across the street. its too wet to allow for a fairway between the drop zone /short tee and the green.

any thoughts on how to handle play from the short tee are welcome.

[stevenpwest]

Chuck –

Wow, that's some scoring spread! Perhaps having only 1/3 of the players land on the island is OK.

Assuming all (and only) the "2's" are players who landed on the island on the first try, that is a few more than my throw simulator would come up with. Not surprising, since my throw simulator is mostly based on full-power throws, as it was designed as a tool for course safety, not to predict scores.

Dan –

From Chuck's data, and running the throw simulator, it would seem there is little difference between Pro and Advanced in hitting an island, just a few percent more Pros will make it.

As for the short tee, you could allow the player to "concede" that the first throw would have gone in the drink, and have another drop zone on the island (or perhaps on the path to the island). That way, players who don't want to waste a disc can play from the on-island drop zone for the price of a throw and a penalty.

I once played a golf hole where you drive your cart onto a boat that takes you from the men's tee to the rest of the hole. The carry over water was too far for a lot of people, so the rules let you play the women's tee+2 without wasting equipment.

[cgkdisc]

Dan, I forgot to mention that hole 16 has a drop zone only 60-70 feet from the pin that's only used for those who go OB from the white tee either as their initial tee shot or heaven forbid if they first went OB from the gold tee and had to throw again from the white tee and went OB again. No one starting from the gold tee ended up going OB again from the white tee since 5 was the worst score recorded from the gold tee. So not gold tee players ended up on the shorter drop zone.

[warwickdan]

chuck / steve....

i like the idea of a 3rd drop zone halfway to the green from the short tee, therefore approx 90 feet away.

i am pondering which of the three following rules of play makes most sense for this hole:

1. If you miss the green from the pro tee you proceed to the short tee, aka the drop zone for missed shots from the pro tee. if you miss from the short tee you then advance to the weenie tee 90 feet from the green.

or

2. since it is the pro tee you keep throwing from the pro tee until you do land in bounds on the island green, no matter how many times you have to re-throw from that tee

or

3. a compromise between # 1 and #2 is that if you miss your first two attempts from the pro tee, THEN you advance to the drop zone / short tee. this would eliminate the possibility for a double digit score on Hole #1. an 18-hole round could be fugly if you score a 10 or more on your first hole.

which of these 3 scenarios makes the most sense? is there a 4th way to play the hole that makes the most sense?

[cgkdisc]

Read the version I posted for hole 16 as version 4. I don't think you want to force players to land on the green from that distance for a long tee, ever. Have a layup area option similar to Winthrop 17 that doesn't allow a tee shot to land safe any closer to the pin than maybe 60 feet or so if they don't go for the island. You get a much better scoring spread with a version where players can get more 3s than any other score rather than mostly 2s & 4s which is a problem with pure "island only is safe" designs.

Another way to do it would be to use the buncr rule (no OB penalty) where the player has to throw twice from the long tee to land on the island then advance to the shorter tee and continue from there using buncr rule.

[stevenpwest]

In my head, I see this as a body of water with small patches of land here and there, so a lay-up zone is not possible.

Based on that, I would prefer ratcheting drop zones. Miss from one, move up to the next shorter. That's not based on scoring spread analysis, it's just how I would like to play it.

I don't like the complication of a counter-loop-escape-box in the flow chart of how to play the hole. Throw two, then go to the next drop zone, for example. If the rules change based on the number of throws you already made, that's too complicated for me.

The penalty throw for missing the island is punishment, as is the loss of the disc underwater. Making them do it over again is more - and in my view, too much - punishment.

Also, if you play it as "go to the next tee if you miss" then all the players are basically playing the hole the same way, except that the players that start from the white tee get a little head start.

One more note, not everyone can throw accurately 90 feet. For example, if you had all the female PDGA members play, 27% would miss a 75 foot wide island on the other side of a 90 foot water carry. (Most of the misses would be left, right, or beyond.)

So, if you still have a forced 90 foot carry over water from the weenie tee, make yet another drop zone on the island.

And still give everyone the option to concede OB without pointlessly tossing a disc into the water. They can advance to whatever tee they want to play from for the appropriate amount of +2's.

[warwickdan]

i agree that different rules from different tees based on the number of misses is way too complicated.

one note: the O/B areas on this hole are not bodies of water where one loses their disc. it is a wetlands area that seasonally gets extremely mushy. but getting your footwear and feet wet and muddy on your first hole of a difficult course is not the experience i want players to have. we will have walking paths and a boardwalk system and possibly the option to concede O/B and play from the next drop zone for folks (especially casual players) that have no desire to sink ankle deep in squish.

here's my current thought:

im thinking we will have 4 "tees" (90ft, 180 ft, 270 ft, 360 ft that plays 300 ft).
they play as pro, advanced, am, rec tees as well as being drop zones. the wetlands / OB area would be defined as a bunCR, i.e. a shot from any tee / drop zone landing in the wetlands / OB area results in the player playing their next shot from the next shorter drop zone, WITH NO PENALTY stroke assessed.

i think one thing this accomplishes that i like is that it offers any player that plays from the pro tee the opportunity to nail a "memory shot" - if your tee shot from the pro tee is O/B it's a shot you'll remember when the round is over, and you'll be rewarded on the scorecard because the majority of players wont land on the green from this tee. but if you miss it, like most players will, you are not overly penalized.

if you land on the green from the pro tee and 2-putt you end up with the same score as the player that missed from the long tee, made it from the 275-foot zone and 1-putted. the player that is long and accurate and can putt gets rewarded vs the inaccurate long thrower that putts poorly. but if you have a good approach game you can salvage the hole with an accurate shot from the 275 foot drop zone.

and i suppose for the total beginner that cant throw 90 feet they could start on the far corner of the green. maybe from the 90-foot tee one incurs a penalty stroke for advancing to the green, thereby shooting their 3rd shot from the corner of the green?

[stevenpwest]

Originally Posted by warwickdan

and i suppose for the total beginner that cant throw 90 feet they could start on the far corner of the green. maybe from the 90-foot tee one incurs a penalty stroke for advancing to the green, thereby shooting their 3rd shot from the corner of the green?

I like it. If it were me, I wouldn't add the penalty stroke for advancing to the green from the 90-foot tee. It's a complication to the rules. It might be rare, but on really windy days some pro and advanced players will get to that 90-foot tee and miss the green, too. I'd maintain the buncr pattern.

Also, beginners don't need any more throws added to their score. Let them shoot 2nd shot from the green. They already are penalized by being put as far away as possible for missing the island.

Please keep track of the scores by rating on this hole. And, if possible, note which throw made the green. This will be vary valuable data for future hole designs.