Ask Dave Dunipace About Innova Discs

[John Hernlund]

Originally Posted by davei

Hi John,
These flights are really not supposed to be compared across all speed ratings; only within speed ratings...One thing is missing from these is the distance grid on the left of each speed category that tells how far the disc needs to fly to achieve these characteristics, thrown flat and nose level, with calm wind. Many people read these distances as how far the disc will fly, but it really represents how far you need to throw it.

Right, I can see that the thrown speed of the drivers must be greater than that of the putters, and that different speed ratings could not be released at the same speed to achieve those flights. So, in drawing these flight patterns, Innova has in mind the distance range for which the disc in each category will yield its intended flight characteristics. If so, are the horizontal lines spaced 100 ft apart? This would give a good measure of distance.

Originally Posted by davei

Also, I noticed that several are wrong, and if they are ours, need to be changed. One notable was the Yeti shown more low speed overstable than the JK.

OK, so this particular chart isn't very reliable. Is there any chance that Innova could produce one that you would vouch for, in terms of accuracy? That would be pretty cool, and I think the many fans of Innova discs would be very interested in having something like that.

Originally Posted by davei

As you infer, from your questions, throwing style can change the way the disc flies; especially nose up, nose down, or up wind, down wind.

One other factor that can change the flight pattern is the rate of spin given to the disc by the thrower at release. By conservation of angular momentum, more spin=less turn/fade (less left-right movement). Do you have any particular value of spin in mind for the different speed categories?

Here is the reason for these questions: I am going to use some of these flight patterns to calculate the aerodynamic forces and torques acting on popular Innova molds. That is why I am keen to know how accurate you believe these patterns are, and how they were produced (sketched based on observations? computed using a model?).

The flight pattern by itself doesn't uniquely determine the magnitude of all these forces/torques, however, I can take a few of these molds to the field and calibrate release speed vs. distance, release spin rate vs. left-right movement, and duration of flight on flat level ground in calm wind conditions (using video frames to measure speed and spin). After doing that, I will be able to combine with the flight pattern and uniquely determine the aerodynamic forces on the disc. In the long-term, my plan is to build a library of aerodynamical properties of every disc mold ever produced. That can, in turn, be used to simulate the flight of each mold with different hyzer/anhyzer angles, different nose angles, thrown from different altitudes, various winds, different air density/altitude/temperature/humidity, tomahawk/thumber, etc.. And that can, in turn, be used for fun, which is what this is all about!

[davei]

Originally Posted by John Hernlund

Right, I can see that the thrown speed of the drivers must be greater than that of the putters, and that different speed ratings could not be released at the same speed to achieve those flights. So, in drawing these flight patterns, Innova has in mind the distance range for which the disc in each category will yield its intended flight characteristics. If so, are the horizontal lines spaced 100 ft apart? This would give a good measure of distance.

Yes.

Originally Posted by John Hernlund

OK, so this particular chart isn't very reliable. Is there any chance that Innova could produce one that you would vouch for, in terms of accuracy? That would be pretty cool, and I think the many fans of Innova discs would be very interested in having something like that.

We have recently redone it to be more accurate and up to date.

Originally Posted by John Hernlund

One other factor that can change the flight pattern is the rate of spin given to the disc by the thrower at release. By conservation of angular momentum, more spin=less turn/fade (less left-right movement). Do you have any particular value of spin in mind for the different speed categories?

No. Spin rate usually follows initial velocity as if the disc were rolling out of the hand. Most of the time, extra spin means extra snap, which means extra acceleration, which means extra initial velocity. It's actually very difficult for most people to get extra spin without extra velocity.

[John Hernlund]

Originally Posted by davei

We have recently redone it to be more accurate and up to date.

I just downloaded the latest from the Innova website. Thanks!

Originally Posted by davei

No. Spin rate usually follows initial velocity as if the disc were rolling out of the hand. Most of the time, extra spin means extra snap, which means extra acceleration, which means extra initial velocity. It's actually very difficult for most people to get extra spin without extra velocity.

I'm not suggesting that a person can easily manipulate spin. Rather, my observation is that two different throwers who throw the exact same disc the same exact distance do not usually have the same spin rate. This has also been documented by video. I've especially noticed this with some top pros, that even at a modest distance of 300', the disc still spins for a few seconds on the ground after gently landing, following a true flight. I think the better spin rates for top pros are over 10 Hz. When a lesser skilled player throws 300', the disc is usually spinning at a much slower rate (probably well under 10 Hz), hits the ground like a plane crash, and exhibits more left-right motion while in the air since the spin doesn't stabilize its turn/fade as much. This is probably due to differences in form, and the way the disc comes out of the hand (i.e., better form vs. worse form; whether or not one pivots the disc out of the rip, etc.).

[drdisc]

Perhaps we need a device that "throws" discs and reports the findings.?
Like the Iron Byron machine that hits golf balls. This could be done by an independent entity. Then all discs would have to adhere to the same procedure for the ratings. It would be much easier on the player/consumer.

[John Hernlund]

Originally Posted by drdisc

Perhaps we need a device that "throws" discs and reports the findings.?

A force balance and wind tunnel would achieve the same purpose, but costs a bit of money to set up. With data from one of those, you could calculate exactly how the disc would fly under any circumstances.

[Slowhand]

What is this Innova disc/lid? It is 100 grams, profile looks like a lid, but has the diameter of a golf disc.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-K...%252520lid.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-a...file.jpg?gl=US

[mf100forever]

Originally Posted by Slowhand

What is this Innova disc/lid? It is 100 grams, profile looks like a lid, but has the diameter of a golf disc.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-K...%252520lid.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-a...file.jpg?gl=US

A Birdie, 1st mold.

[Slowhand]

After searching your suggestion, I found http://www.wrightlife.com/site/store...scs/disc_golf/. Lucky find for $2.50 at PIAS.

[LastBoyScout]

Dave,

Quick questions here....

What would the flight ratings on an Eagle-L be?

Also, will the Eagle-L ever be produced in regular production as the EL or is there a chance that the Innova Store will start doing a limted run of EL's?

I have Eagles in the X mold running out of my ears, but I only have 2 Eagle-Ls and I just hit an ace with one and want to retire it. I need some more backups!

Thanks Dave!

[davei]

Originally Posted by LastBoyScout

Dave,

Quick questions here....

What would the flight ratings on an Eagle-L be?

Also, will the Eagle-L ever be produced in regular production as the EL or is there a chance that the Innova Store will start doing a limted run of EL's?

I have Eagles in the X mold running out of my ears, but I only have 2 Eagle-Ls and I just hit an ace with one and want to retire it. I need some more backups!

Thanks Dave!

Flight number would be pretty much the same: 7/4/-1/2 The fade might be a little less.

We have no plans to run the EL , but we probably want to do some for the store.

[futurecollisions]

Dave,

Is a Cro just a beadless Spider, or is it a different disc completely?

[frisbeeguy]

Hi Dave,
Thanks for this thread.
My question is about the rarity of a couple old Sharks I have in the rack.
They're "rubber" - super gummy - similar feel to the old Omega supersoft with the pliability of a "Blowfly".
Would these have been molded when the plastic blend was being changed?
Were they actually produced this way on purpose or are they oddities?
Thanks again - ah - #5923

[davei]

Originally Posted by futurecollisions

Dave,

Is a Cro just a beadless Spider, or is it a different disc completely?

Basically.

[davei]

Originally Posted by frisbeeguy

Hi Dave,
Thanks for this thread.
My question is about the rarity of a couple old Sharks I have in the rack.
They're "rubber" - super gummy - similar feel to the old Omega supersoft with the pliability of a "Blowfly".
Would these have been molded when the plastic blend was being changed?
Were they actually produced this way on purpose or are they oddities?
Thanks again - ah - #5923

There were two runs of Rubber Sharks. The first run was about seven or so years ago. The latest run about two years ago we made because one of our East Coast employees was asking for them.

Most of the first run were a light brown or greenish tint. These also were gritty. They were made that way on purpose.

[futurecollisions]

Originally Posted by davei

Basically.

Originally Posted by futurecollisions

Dave,

Is a Cro just a beadless Spider, or is it a different disc completely?

Then, if a bead makes a disc more stable, wouldnt the Spider be the more stable version of the Cro? Just trying to figure which one I should stick with

Thanks Dave

[Karl]

Future,

Your...
"Then, if a bead makes a disc more stable,"
...may confuse some people.

A bead will make a disc more OVER stable. Think of "stable" as "neutral" / straight-flying.

If you add a bead to an very under stable disc, yes, it would make that disc more "stable". But if you add a bead to an over stable disc, it would make the "new disc" LESS stable, i.e. more OVER stable (than the already over stable disc is).

And to make matter more confusing, you've picked on 2 discs that are rather close to each other AND right about on the slightly over stable / stable / slightly under stable line.

So don't worry about the terminology per se, just know that the Spider will hyzer out more than a Cro (at just about any speed thrown).

Karl

[davei]

Originally Posted by futurecollisions

Then, if a bead makes a disc more stable, wouldnt the Spider be the more stable version of the Cro? Just trying to figure which one I should stick with

Thanks Dave

It's a long believed myth, (among others in disc golf) that a bead, per se, makes a disc more stable. Sharks and Rocs are a good example. Depending on material and molding, Sharks might be more stable to over stable than some Rocs. Same with Cro and Spider

[ishkatbible]

Originally Posted by davei

... It's a long believed myth, (among others in disc golf) that a bead, per se, makes a disc more stable. ...

speaking of beads... i'm looking at buying a few eagles, for christmas gifts. there's the eagle and eagle x, which one is the older one with the bead? or were the beaded ones i used to have an accident?

[futurecollisions]

Originally Posted by ishkatbible

speaking of beads... i'm looking at buying a few eagles, for christmas gifts. there's the eagle and eagle x, which one is the older one with the bead? or were the beaded ones i used to have an accident?

eagle x - bead, more stable

[rhett]

Originally Posted by futurecollisions

eagle x - bead, more stable

Eagle-X has a massively sloped edge reminiscent of a Viper, and I believe that is what makes it so over-stable, not any bead.

[quickdisc]

What is the Lycan ? a mid-range disc ?

[davei]

Originally Posted by quickdisc

What is the Lycan ? a mid-range disc ?

Hey Donny,
The Lycan is a mid range similar to a Coyote and Mako, but a touch more stable with a beefier rim.

[futurecollisions]

Originally Posted by rhett

Eagle-X has a massively sloped edge reminiscent of a Viper, and I believe that is what makes it so over-stable, not any bead.

Im not sure what kind of eagles you have, but I have several right here, L and X mold, none of which have this sloped edge. Only difference is a bead or no bead. Same thing with my firebirds (FL or FX), teebirds (T or TL)

[davei]

Originally Posted by futurecollisions

Im not sure what kind of eagles you have, but I have several right here, L and X mold, none of which have this sloped edge. Only difference is a bead or no bead. Same thing with my firebirds (FL or FX), teebirds (T or TL)

The only discs we have with true beads are Rocs, Big Beads, Rhynos, Original Rocs and Hammers, Spiders and things like that. Anything else is not a true bead. Eagles, TeeBirds, Banshees and such do not have beads.

[futurecollisions]

Originally Posted by davei

The only discs we have with true beads are Rocs, Big Beads, Rhynos, Original Rocs and Hammers, Spiders and things like that. Anything else is not a true bead. Eagles, TeeBirds, Banshees and such do not have beads.

I see, thanks Dave.

[20460chase]

Originally Posted by futurecollisions

I see, thanks Dave.

Its common for people to call x molds "Hook and Beads" vs. L molds with the flat wing. Ive heard it for years.

[davei]

I have a question for those of you who follow this thread. I wonder how much interest there might be for light weight Champion discs. By "light", I mean virtually any weight down to 100 gms or so. And, keep in mind, 140 gms is about the cutoff weight for floating in water. Discs below this will float. This might be any disc, but it really is aimed at the higher speed drivers that have only been available in higher weights.

So, the question is: If we could make these light weight Champion discs, would anyone be interested. Assume they feel and fly the same as heavier discs of the same type.

[omegaputt]

I would love it.

[jksenior]

Dave,

Any plans to run KC Pro in any other colors ? Specifically Rocs and Aviars in some orange or blue instead of white.

[davei]

Originally Posted by jksenior

Dave,

Any plans to run KC Pro in any other colors ? Specifically Rocs and Aviars in some orange or blue instead of white.

We do occasionally run KC Pro in other colors including black, orange, blue, and yellow.