Ask Chuck Kennedy

[cgkdisc]

DSproAVIAR - There is no requirement that a disc has to enter the target. It only says that if the disc enters the target in certain ways, it is not holed out.

However, that means it must enter the basket from above the basket rim and below the chain support.

[DSproAVIAR]

I did, like 40 times today. There is no requirement that the disc must enter the target to be holed out. It just must be supported by a certain part of the target. Is this incorrect?

[cgkdisc]

While it doesn't say how the disc gets into the basket, how could it get there other than going in below the chain support and above the basket rim? Beamed in like Star Trek?

I agree with UPM's call of 8 on Dana's example.

[DSproAVIAR]

xxx

[DSproAVIAR]

Originally Posted by cgkdisc

While it doesn't say how the disc gets into the basket, how could it get there other than going in below the chain support and above the basket rim? Beamed in like Star Trek?

Get where? Into the basket? It doesn't need to "get into the basket". It just needs to be supported by the bottom and inside wall of the tray after I release the disc and after it comes to rest.

That was the picture I posted. That picture (plus my description) shows how a disc can be supported by the bottom and inside wall of the tray without having entered the basket. No?

[cgkdisc]

Did it enter over the rim of the tray? No. The rule says if it doesn't enter over the top of the tray then it's not holed out.

[DSproAVIAR]

Originally Posted by cgkdisc

The rule says if it doesn't enter over the top of the tray then it's not holed out.

Not true at all. The rule says that if a disc enters from under the top of the tray or from above the chain hangers, then it's not holed out.

"Entering the basket" is not a requirement for the disc to be holed out. The only requirement for holing out is for the disc to be supported by the bottom and inside wall of the tray.

[underparmike]

Originally Posted by cgkdisc

Did it enter over the rim of the tray? No. The rule says if it doesn't enter over the top of the tray then it's not holed out.

There you go again Chuck. The rule does not say that!

I think DSPro hit an ace.

[cgkdisc]

It depends on whether players or officials observe it. You're correct it exactly says it's not holed out if it's observed to enter below the top of the tray or above the bottom of the chain support. Which means it's not holed unless it enters the target above the top of the tray and below the chain support. All of this is subject to observation however.

[DSproAVIAR]

Originally Posted by cgkdisc

Which means it's not holed unless it enters the target above the top of the tray and below the chain support.

Chuck, this is false! Show me where I can read this in the rulebook. I'll repeat myself for the last time. There is only one requirement a disc needs to meet to be holed out-

"In order to
hole out, the thrower must release the disc
and it must come to rest supported by the
chains and/or the inner cylinder (bottom and
inside wall) of the tray."

Tell me how my disc did not "come to rest supported by the
chains and/or the inner cylinder (bottom and
inside wall) of the tray" and I will tell you that you are right and that the wording of this rule does not need to be changed.

[DSproAVIAR]

The only case in which a disc would not be holed out if it meets that ONE SINGLE requirement is-

"if it's observed to enter below the top of the tray or above the bottom of the chain support."

That didn't happen in this case.

[cgkdisc]

The first two sentences of 803.13B are not the complete rule. The throw also has to meet the third sentence which declares when a disc is not holed out and inversely is an additional requirement for when a disc is holed out. The first two sentences for holing out are true alone if no one observes the shot. But if players or an official observe the shot then the other conditions must also be met. In logic terms, the three sentences together constitute AND logic where all need to be true.

[jconnell]

Originally Posted by DSproAVIAR

Chuck, this is false! Show me where I can read this in the rulebook. I'll repeat myself for the last time. There is only one requirement a disc needs to meet to be holed out-

"In order to
hole out, the thrower must release the disc
and it must come to rest supported by the
chains and/or the inner cylinder (bottom and
inside wall) of the tray."

Tell me how my disc did not "come to rest supported by the
chains and/or the inner cylinder (bottom and
inside wall) of the tray" and I will tell you that you are right and that the wording of this rule does not need to be changed.

Holy Christ, can you be more obtuse? You are completely ignoring the next line of the rule, which is also pretty important and is a condition of considering the disc holed out.

The rule specifically excludes all shots that enter the target in any way other than below the chain assembly and above the rim. Therefore, the only way a shot can enter the target and be considered holed out is below the chain assembly and above the rim. The exception being only if the disc's path is not witnessed, and in those cases the benefit of the doubt goes to the player and the disc is assumed to have passed over the rim and below the chain assembly (even if it is unlikely or impossible for the disc to have done so). And it's that exception that gives your shot any argument for being considered holed out at all here.

[krupicka]

His point is that the rule is written to exclude discs that have entered the target through the top or through the tray. The rule does not explicitly say that a disc must enter the space between the top and the tray. A disc supported by the bottom of the tray that never entered through the bottom of the tray meets the strict reading of the rules.

Even so, I don't think that was the intention of the cumbersome holing out rule. IMO discs should be solely supported by the basket.

[16670]

maybe im missunderstanding this rule-lets say im putting from 30 ft with my 11 year old omega ss [that is soft as warm butta] and i putt a little low it hits the side of the basket and it flexes and goes completly through the basket settling completly inside [not stuck at all] are you telling me this is not good?i thought the rule was only for a disc stuck or wedged into the basket

[cgkdisc]

Not good.

[DSproAVIAR]

Originally Posted by jconnell

You are completely ignoring the next line of the rule, which is also pretty important and is a condition of considering the disc holed out.

FALSE!



"B. Disc Entrapment Devices: In order to
hole out, the thrower must release the disc
and it must come to rest supported by the
chains and/or the inner cylinder (bottom and
inside wall) of the tray. It may be additionally
supported by the pole. "

^^^This part of the rule sets the 1 single requirement for where a disc must come to rest to be considered hole out.


"A disc observed by two
or more players of the group or an official to
have entered the target below the top of the
tray or above the bottom of the chain support
is not holed out."

^^^This part of the rule excludes certain cases in which a disc had already met that requirement.

The second part of the rule does not set a requirement for what a disc must do to be considered holed out. Chuck and Josh, you guys are imagining the second part of the rule to read "A DISC MUST HAVE entered the target below the top of the tray or above the bottom of the chain support to be considered holed out." It is in your imagination, and is your interpretation of a poorly written rule.


Also obtuse? Call the mods! Personal attack!!! lol

Krupicka, you get it! Thanks.

[cgkdisc]

The only reason the third sentence is written in the negative is it's the only condition that requires observers. The first two sentences describe holing out whether it's observed or not. Not holing out requires observers who don't see the disc enter the target properly. The first two sentences do not stand separate from the third.

Here's a similar example to the same logic as the holing out rule. You can't just use the first sentence without the second one to determine if the player has scored.

A baseball player running the base path must step on home plate to score a run. A player is declared "out" and doesn't score if a player from the opposing team tags him either with the ball or the ball in his mitt just before he steps on the plate.

[DSproAVIAR]

Ummmmm. Here let me give it a shot.

"The disc must have entered the target above the top of the tray or below the bottom of the chain support to be considered holed out. A disc observed by two or more players of the group or an official to have entered the target below the top of the tray or above the bottom of the chain support is not holed out."

I reject your assertion that the PDGA did the best they could to make sure this rule could not be interpreted in more than one way.

[stevenpwest]

DSproAVIAR,

I don't think your disc is supported by "the inner cylinder (bottom and inside wall) of the tray". I take the inner cylinder to mean the inner most part of the wires. Your disc appears to be resting against the outer half of the wires. Obviously, not all of the wire counts, or else there would not be a need for the word "inner".

One might even interpret "inner cylinder" as the parts a disc would touch only if came to rest in the tray. If so, then there is no gap in the rules.

I applaud the intent to write a rule that avoids the phrase "entered the basket" – because that would need to be observed, and I prefer rules that only depend on where the disc is as it lies, not how it got there.

[underparmike]

I'm going to have to say I agree with stevenpwest, and that this is not an ace after all, because the disc is not supported by the inner cylinder. If dspro's disc was legally holed out, then discs hanging off the side of the tray would also have to be considered holed out, and we know they are not.

This in no way changes my opinion that Rule 803.13 is the most poorly written and confusing rule in the rulebook.

[cgkdisc]

Rules are written to avoid duplication if possible when there are only two options involved: good/bad, in/out, etc. If you write a rule that this is the "only" way you can do something to be good, you don't need to add the redundant statement that says if you don't do this then the shot is bad.

[DSproAVIAR]

Originally Posted by cgkdisc

If you write a rule that this is the "only" way you can do something to be good,

I agree. But the rule is not written that way.

It reads that if you do something "this way or this way", then it doesn't count.

Why is making something more clear by writing an extra sentence in the rulebook a bad thing? To avoid duplication? You don't want to use 1 specific word or phrase too many times in a rulebook?

[DSproAVIAR]

Originally Posted by stevenpwest

DSproAVIAR,

I don't think your disc is supported by "the inner cylinder (bottom and inside wall) of the tray". I take the inner cylinder to mean the inner most part of the wires. Your disc appears to be resting against the outer half of the wires.

Surprised no one brought that up before! Thank you Steven.

It was not standing up straight. It was resting on an angle. Imagine a disc resting on an angle on a round wire. The disc was definitely touching (and therefore supported by) a part of the wire that would be touching a disc that was resting inside the bucket.

Also, if you want to use the term "outer half of the wire", it was most definitely also touching part of the inner half of the wire.

But then again, it seems that "bottom and inside wall of the tray" is up for interpretation as well. Where does the inside wall stop and the outside wall begin?

[DSproAVIAR]

Originally Posted by stevenpwest

I applaud the intent to write a rule that avoids the phrase "entered the basket"

Yes, they did their best, apparently. They "gave it the ol' PDGA try"!

[Dana]

Chuck- Whats the word on getting ratings from the "USDGC" this year?

Thanks

[ERicJ]

Originally Posted by DSproAVIAR

Ummmmm. Here let me give it a shot.

"The disc must have entered the target above the top of the tray and below the bottom of the chain support to be considered holed out. A disc observed by two or more players of the group or an official to have entered the target below the top of the tray or above the bottom of the chain support is not holed out."

Fixed that for ya.

[JenniferB]

If the disc came to rest supported by the inner wall of the basket, then it must have at least partially entered the basket. The issue then is whether it partially entered from above or below the rim. But I think some folks are too invested in this whole argument now to recognize that the disc must have at least partially entered the basket in order to be in contact with the inner wall.

[cgkdisc]

Chuck- Whats the word on getting ratings from the "USDGC" this year?

There will be unofficial ratings calculated for fun but they will not be used for players' official ratings. There will be a story posted on the Home page by next week with what problems we found and why no official ratings.

[DSproAVIAR]

Originally Posted by ERicJ

Fixed that for ya.

Agreed! Thank you sir!