Ask Chuck Kennedy

[eupher61]

Originally Posted by Patrick P

Ah, we really are going to miss the inconsiderate self-centered people like you...not. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DksSPZTZES0

try this one, for better music at least.

[JenniferB]

Originally Posted by cgkdisc

Seems like the US Master title is the first one and the second one is the Master winner at the US Womens Championship.

Thanks for your answer. What if I provide the additional information in bold below:

I was wondering who gets the national title in women's masters divisions when you have U.S. Masters Championships and also U.S. Womens. For example, Ms. L won women's advanced masters at the U.S Masters Championship (only 2 people played), and a couple of months later, Ms. S won advanced masters at US womens (7 people played, including Ms. L, and Ms. L finished 5th). Do they both get to claim the title?

Does that change your answer?

I noticed that the USDGC does not allow age protected divisions, and that avoids ambiguity in the men's masters national titles. Why does the USWDGC allow age protected divisions?

[cgkdisc]

No change in my Master answer. But then, I don't get to decide that. Contact PDGA HQ for their take.

US Womens started in the 90s as a gathering for women players whether Am or Pro since there were so few. I'm not sure the Intermediate and lower divisions were added until sometime after 2000 when ratings better identified the skill levels. So, it's been tradition as much as any reason regarding offering all divisions. Plus, I don't believe the event has ever topped 100 players so excluding divisions hasn't been considered at this point.

[discette]

Originally Posted by JenniferB

Thanks for your answer. What if I provide the additional information in bold below:



Does that change your answer?

I noticed that the USDGC does not allow age protected divisions, and that avoids ambiguity in the men's masters national titles. Why does the USWDGC allow age protected divisions?

Jennifer

You both are US Champions. One holds the title as Tim Selinske United States Masters Champion - Advanced Master Women and the other as United States Women's Disc Golf Champion - Advanced Masters.

For the purposed of determining PDGA Tour Card eligibility, both count as US titles.

[mattdisc]

Hey Chuck, How long will 2010 rounds be counted for 2011 ratings?

I've got 20 rounds for the year and I still have rounds from August 2010 included with the last update. Makes no sense if the ratings are to be accurate for this year.

Thanks!
Matt

[cgkdisc]

2010 rounds will be counted forever if you don't play any more. Rounds drop off once you have rated rounds more than 365 days newer than older rounds. Many active players always have rounds from the previous year in their stats until just after each yearend.

[JenniferB]

Originally Posted by discette

Jennifer

You both are US Champions. One holds the title as Tim Selinske United States Masters Champion - Advanced Master Women and the other as United States Women's Disc Golf Champion - Advanced Masters.

For the purposed of determining PDGA Tour Card eligibility, both count as US titles.

Not me. I'm "Vice Champion." I thought about calling second place "Assistant Champion," but I decided that "Vice Champion" is funnier. ;-)

[juanbond]

Originally Posted by JenniferB

Not me. I'm "Vice Champion." I thought about calling second place "Assistant Champion," but I decided that "Vice Champion" is funnier. ;-)

Assistant TO the regional champion.

/officejoke

[JenniferB]

What happens when a TD fails to get official results in by the end of the year, or ever. Do those rounds never get used in ratings? What are the repercussions to the TD?

[krupicka]

You can see the delinquent TD list here:
http://www.pdga.com/documents/disciplinary-actions

[cgkdisc]

For the past 6 years, only 1 event out of 6000 did not get reported in time to be included in the yearend ratings and it was added a month later.

[johnrock]

Originally Posted by krupicka

You can see the delinquent TD list here:
http://www.pdga.com/documents/disciplinary-actions

Who are the members of the disciplinary committee? Do they change each year?

[cgkdisc]

They don't change on an annual cycle but simply when someone drops out and they replace them. I believe Shawn Sinclair and Robert Leonard are currently two members on there.

[rhett]

That poor guy from Belgium. All he did was offer outstanding event payout, and he got suspended for it!

[JenniferB]

A TD told me that he can enter info about wind and water for a round and it will be takeninto account when the official ratings are calculated to produce higher ratings. Is this information really used that way, or is it only used to decide whether to avarage round ratings together of rounds on the same layout in the same tournament? If all the rounds are already on different layouts becaseu of different tees, does entering info about weather and water have any affect at all?

[cgkdisc]

If a TD enters info on wind and rain, it will raise our awareness to take a closer look. But deciding whether or not rounds on the same layout are combined or rated separately has become a mostly automated process using the actual numbers produced. Where it can come into play is on tee time rounds where we might not break out different time segments during the day to check the numbers unless we hear that the winds were significantly different between morning and afternoon.

BTW, adding rain alone without wind has not been shown to impact SSA. The theory is that players throw more conservatively and their average scores don't seem to change.

[DSproAVIAR]

Chuck,

Got another one for you. Here's 803.13.B-

B. Disc Entrapment Devices: In order to
hole out, the thrower must release the disc
and it must come to rest supported by the
chains and/or the inner cylinder (bottom and
inside wall) of the tray. It may be additionally
supported by the pole. A disc observed by two
or more players of the group or an official to
have entered the target below the top of the
tray or above the bottom of the chain support
is not holed out.

Attached is an "ace" that i threw yesterday in a casual round. I call it ace because it is supported by "the inner cylinder (bottom and inside wall) of the tray".

It is obviously not exclusively supported by "the inner cylinder (bottom and inside wall) of the tray", but it is definitely supported.

They way the current rules are written, if this happened in a tournament, I would feel obligated to demand ace pool money and I would mark it a 1 on the card.

The rule needs to be fixed. The wording should be "....it must come to rest supported EXCLUSIVELY by the chains and/or the inner cylinder (bottom and inside wall) of the tray."

I am interested to hear your thoughts on this. Please share.

PS That is hole #15 at Cass Benton in Northville, MI.

[cgkdisc]

I guess I don't see the problem with calling your shot an ace and why the rule wording needs to be changed. The only way your shot wouldn't have been an ace is if the group saw your shot get to that position from a skip shot coming into the basket from under it. Because we allow baskets sunk in the ground (like your example here) and nestled in trees, we'll have scenarios where another surface like the ground or a tree trunk may also be providing some support. Note that if the disc is wedged on the outside of the basket up against a tree trunk, the shot wouldn't be holed out because it wasn't touching the inner side of the cylinder.

[DSproAVIAR]

Thanks! The irony of the shot is that if had somehow bounced into the basket off the ground (edit --through the bottom of the cage --) and it was actually sitting in the basket, it would definitely not have been an ace. But since it's not in the bucket, it's an ace. That is a pretty obvious flaw in the rules if you ask me.

The drive landed about 20' left of the bucket, (edit -- was presumed to have --) rolled towards the cage and that's where it came to rest. Now to try and collect $5 from the witnesses...

[jconnell]

Originally Posted by DSproAVIAR

Thanks! The irony of the shot is that if had somehow bounced into the basket off the ground and it was actually sitting in the basket, it would definitely not have been an ace. But since it's not in the bucket, it's an ace. That is a pretty obvious flaw in the rules if you ask me.

The drive landed about 20' left of the bucket, rolled towards the cage and that's where it came to rest. Now to try and collect $5 from the witnesses...

If it rolled to that position, I'd say no ace to that shot based on the current rules. Here's the key line of the rule:

A disc observed by two or more players of the group or an official to have entered the target below the top of the tray or above the bottom of the chain support is not holed out.

By your description, it did not enter the target over the top of the tray. It rolled under the basket to its final position. A year ago, you might have had an argument for it being an ace. Now, unless you didn't see it get to where it was, and since you say it rolled, I'm assuming you saw it, it's not holed out yet.

[Dana]

Ok, wondering what the correct call would be on this.
-Player throws drive OB.
-Player throws following shot from OB (didn't realize it was OB).
-Player then throws in OB Creek from there and instead of going to the drop zone* (which player should have done after throwing the tee shot), plays it from the last spot it was in bounds (right by the basket).

*On this hole, shots from tee side of creek that go OB, must go to drop zone. Shots that go OB from basket side of Creek, play normal OB rules.

From the picture, you can see the OB line/rope. Players tee shot was dry, but on the OB side of the yellow rope.

Player scored the hole as a 4 with an OB Penalty.

[jconnell]

Originally Posted by Dana

Ok, wondering what the correct call would be on this.
-Player throws drive OB.
-Player throws following shot from OB (didn't realize it was OB).
-Player then throws in OB Creek from there and instead of going to the drop zone* (which player should have done after throwing the tee shot), plays it from the last spot it was in bounds (right by the basket).

*On this hole, shots from tee side of creek that go OB, must go to drop zone. Shots that go OB from basket side of Creek, play normal OB rules.

From the picture, you can see the OB line/rope. Players tee shot was dry, but on the OB side of the yellow rope.

Player scored the hole as a 4 with an OB Penalty.

I'd say the player should get a 2-throw penalty for misplaying the stipulated course.
801.04 D:

In instances where a misplay is discovered after the pertinent hole or holes have been completed (holed out), the misplay shall not be replayed and the player shall receive a two-throw penalty for the misplay.

[DSproAVIAR]

Thanks for the input! To be clear, I'm not raising the discussion to justify calling it an ace. I marked it a deuce. My point is the rule wording needs to be changed.

Originally Posted by jconnell

If it rolled to that position, I'd say no ace to that shot based on the current rules. Here's the key line of the rule:


By your description, it did not enter the target over the top of the tray. It rolled under the basket to its final position. A year ago, you might have had an argument for it being an ace. Now, unless you didn't see it get to where it was, and since you say it rolled, I'm assuming you saw it, it's not holed out yet.

OK, I read that. Here's the funny thing though- It never entered the target, and that's fine. The rules don't say that you must "enter the target" to be holed out. When the disc came to rest, it was supported by the inside of the basket. Thoughts?

To clarify further, we all saw my drive and we all saw it hyzer out. We figured it would have landed about 20' left, and I assumed that's where I was going to find the disc. The first time we realized it came to rest in that position was when we were halfway to the bucket. That doesn't really matter, but just to clarify, it was an assumption when I said it rolled. A squirrel could've picked it up and dropped it there, for all we know.

[DSproAVIAR]

Dana,

What course is that? Temp course?

[jconnell]

Originally Posted by DSproAVIAR

OK, I read that. Here's the funny thing though- It never entered the target, and that's fine. The rules don't say that you must "enter the target" to be holed out. When the disc came to rest, it was supported by the inside of the basket. Thoughts?

I don't think you read it, because by saying a disc that doesn't enter the target above the rim of the tray and below the bottom of the chain assembly is not holed out, it is saying that the disc must enter the target above the rim of the tray and below the bottom of the chain assembly in order to be legally holed out.

The exception being, of course, if no one saw the disc arrive at its location. So if you say you didn't see it and the rest of your group didn't see it, then I guess you can argue that it's holed out. I think I'd disagree with that argument because if the disc did as you describe, there's no way it could have legally entered the target and wound up where it was. So calling it a two is 100% the correct call.

As for the wording of the rule, I don't think anything needs to be added. For the disc to be supported by the "inner cylinder", it would have to be inside the cylinder to begin with. The disc pictured is not inside the cylinder.

[underparmike]

Originally Posted by Dana

Ok, wondering what the correct call would be on this.
-Player throws drive OB.
-Player throws following shot from OB (didn't realize it was OB).
-Player then throws in OB Creek from there and instead of going to the drop zone* (which player should have done after throwing the tee shot), plays it from the last spot it was in bounds (right by the basket).

*On this hole, shots from tee side of creek that go OB, must go to drop zone. Shots that go OB from basket side of Creek, play normal OB rules.

From the picture, you can see the OB line/rope. Players tee shot was dry, but on the OB side of the yellow rope.

Player scored the hole as a 4 with an OB Penalty.

Since Chuck seems to have lost his mind in another thread and may no longer be qualified to answer rules questions, I'll take a swing at this scenario, although it's a bit confusing as described.

Rule 801.04.B(4) describes what to do about the player's second throw from OB:

"Out-Of-Bounds Play: Playing an out-of-bounds disc as if it were in-bounds. If the misplay is discovered after the throw from out-of-bounds, but before a subsequent throw has been made, the player shall throw from the correct lie and treat the throw from out-of-bounds as a practice throw (one throw added to the player's score). If the misplay is discovered after a subsequent throw, the player shall proceed to complete the hole and receive a two-throw penalty for the misplay."

So the player would get two throws added for that. As for not throwing from the drop zone on the next throw, that would fall under Rule 801.04.E:

"E. In instances where a misplay is discovered after the player has turned in his or her scorecard, the misplay shall not be replayed and the player shall receive a two-throw penalty for the misplay."

So the player should get another two-throw penalty for not playing from the drop zone.

So, it looks to me like the "correct call" should be a score of 8 on this hole for this player.

[DSproAVIAR]

Originally Posted by jconnell

it is saying that the disc must enter the target above the rim of the tray and below the bottom of the chain assembly in order to be legally holed out.

Where? The rule does not mention that.

You just made that up. There is only one requirement for a throw to be legally holed out. That only requirement is -

"In order to
hole out, the thrower must release the disc
and it must come to rest supported by the
chains and/or the inner cylinder (bottom and
inside wall) of the tray."

There is no requirement that a disc has to enter the target. It only says that if the disc enters the target in certain ways, it is not holed out.

Originally Posted by jconnell

For the disc to be supported by the "inner cylinder", it would have to be inside the cylinder to begin with. The disc pictured is not inside the cylinder.

It is supported by the bottom of the tray. The rule does not state that the disc must be inside the cylinder.

[Dana]

Daemon- Its a temp course on a golf course in IL.

Mike- Sorry for the confusing description, its somewhat of a confusing situation. An 8 does seem like the right call. Although, it seems pretty rough tacking on 4 penalty strokes.

[underparmike]

Originally Posted by DSproAVIAR

Thanks! The irony of the shot is that if had somehow bounced into the basket off the ground and it was actually sitting in the basket, it would definitely not have been an ace.

Why wouldn't that be an ace?

[DSproAVIAR]

Sorry UPM, I misspoke.


The irony of the shot is that if it had somehow bounced into the basket off the ground --through the bottom of the cage -- and it was actually sitting in the basket, it would definitely not have been an ace.