Ask Chuck Kennedy

[cgkdisc]

Much of the success of the Global was requiring B-tiers. We wanted experienced TDs this first time and got them so we could count on good score uploading and well run events otherwise. There were enough behind the scenes challenges as it was with this new format even with experienced TDs.

Sorry Sammy, if few pros show up they don't necessarily deserve anything more than the ams who show up do they? No one's saying the TDs should get to "keep" sponsor money if sponsors expected it to be paid to pros. But those kind of restrictions are few and far between. Sponsors care about eyeballs and it really doesn't matter who provides them - players, staff and spectators.

[evandmckee]

Originally Posted by cgkdisc

So what is your solution for low turnout B-tiers?

1. Be prepared for a minimum of $500 added to the pro purse, this is usually done by some sort of outside of the event sponsorship

2. Be prepared to sell alot of merchandise to recoup the investment for amateur prizes

Don't run a B Tier if you can't do the above, that's what C Tiers or unsanctioned events are for

[cgkdisc]

Didn't answer the question. Why are primarily volunteer TDs the only ones that should suffer the risk if turnout is low? It's not like TDs make much if anything and certainly lose with low turnouts. Course rental was $400 for a recent low turnout event for example. Bad weather forecasts scare away pre-registration or players wanting refunds.

[ChrisWoj]

Originally Posted by cgkdisc

Didn't answer the question. Why are primarily volunteer TDs the only ones that should suffer the risk if turnout is low? It's not like TDs make much if anything and certainly lose with low turnouts. Course rental was $400 for a recent low turnout event for example. Bad weather forecasts scare away pre-registration or players wanting refunds.

As I already said: If you have no turnout, its your own fault. I've run multiple B Tiers and I can honestly say that 100% of the difference in my turnout for the first Stateline Classic (2009) vs the second Stateline Classic (2010) was prep-work by myself and my staff. I spent the necessary time getting out word, making people knew why it would be worth it to play my event. I drew about 90 golfers despite half of my possible players (if not more) already being committed to the much more established AJ Open on the other side of the state... because I was committed to it and I did the proper prep-work.

What you're describing:

Look at it this way, if the TDs are less on the hook regarding B-tier cash, they are more likely to sanction at that level since we've reduced their risk in case of a low turnout event. If enough pros show, they get their $500 cash added to the purse. No one from PDGA HQ is suggesting anything different. If they don't show, then the TD has more flexibility. What that means and when it can be used is TBD

Pretty much takes away any prestige of a B Tier. What is the difference, in this case, between a B Tier and a C Tier? An added percentage of merch value guaranteed to the Ams, and thats it? Hell, 90% of the TDs I have encountered overprice their merch to the point that the Ams don't get anything whether its a B Tier or a C Tier. So they're not really getting much in the way of added value.

If a TD doesn't want to be on the hook for the cash RUN A C TIER. We don't need more B Tiers if the events that are going to happen are crap. Quality over quantity.

[ChrisWoj]

Originally Posted by cgkdisc

Didn't answer the question. Why are primarily volunteer TDs the only ones that should suffer the risk if turnout is low? It's not like TDs make much if anything and certainly lose with low turnouts. Course rental was $400 for a recent low turnout event for example. Bad weather forecasts scare away pre-registration or players wanting refunds.

I valued discs at below MSRP for a C Tier this year that drew 30 golfers, and I still made over $150, and it would have been more had I not added $100 in cash to the Open purse. Think about that: I valued my merch under MSRP and STILL could have come out $250+ dollars ahead had I not added cash to the pro purse. Any tournament director that is losing money is outsourcing his merch/payouts to a vendor that is going to be doing nothing but profiting from the event. (the mistake I made for both of my B Tiers mentioned above where I lost tons of money)


edit: Thinking on it even more, could have made even more had my two biggest am payouts not chosen to get their payouts online via the Dynamic Discs store (which is an option I offered).

[cgkdisc]

Chris, you're using your experience as the basis for making broad generalizations about how it is or should be everywhere. Have you had to pay $700 course fees like in Los Angeles? Do you live in an area with few PDGA members? Do we want to discourage TDs from trying to run B-tiers because the risk is too high? That policy would not be in the best interest of the players overall. No potential TD is going to sanction a B-tier with low turnout in mind. It's more upfront cost with sanctioning for one and they still have to do the work to gather sponsorship. Why would TDs choose to do a low turnout B-tier when they could reduce their risk sanctioning as a C-tier?

[ChrisWoj]

Originally Posted by cgkdisc

Chris, you're using your experience as the basis for making broad generalizations about how it is or should be everywhere. Have you had to pay $700 course fees like in Los Angeles? Do you live in an area with few PDGA members? Do we want to discourage TDs from trying to run B-tiers because the risk is too high? That policy would not be in the best interest of the players overall. No potential TD is going to sanction a B-tier with low turnout in mind. It's more upfront cost with sanctioning for one and they still have to do the work to gather sponsorship. Why would TDs choose to do a low turnout B-tier when they could reduce their risk sanctioning as a C-tier?

They wouldn't, and shouldn't. If your community isn't ready for a B Tier. If you can't gather proper sponsorship. If you are not prepared to take a hit. If you are not going to do the leg work for it... you should not run a higher tiered event. Simply put. So yes - we do want to discourage Tournament Directors from doing things that they are not ready nor capable of doing. C Tiers are for building communities and tournament fields. There is an inherent risk involved with running a B Tier, but guess what: Once you have the experience, the field, the sponsorship lined up - and you feel you're ready - go to it.

Otherwise: Run a C Tier.

In response to your other question: No, I have not experienced $700 course fees. But I did pay $150 - using profit from merch vending at the tournament - to use the course in Georgia this year for my C Tier at the private facility at Honey Creek Episcopal Center, so I understand course fees.

[cgkdisc]

Experienced TD. Paid B-tier sanctioning and insurance. Gathered sponsorship. Had pre-registration up two months in advance. Paid course and shelter reservation fees. Ordered disc stock to handle player packs and prizes. Hurricane Irene now barreling down on the coastline. Only 10 local guys show up including one pro with maybe 20 asking for refunds 5 days before. Hand the pro $500 plus entry fee?

[ChrisWoj]

Originally Posted by cgkdisc

Experienced TD. Paid B-tier sanctioning and insurance. Gathered sponsorship. Had pre-registration up two months in advance. Paid course and shelter reservation fees. Ordered disc stock to handle player packs and prizes. Hurricane Irene now barreling down on the coastline. Only 10 local guys show up including one pro with maybe 20 asking for refunds 5 days before. Hand the pro $500 plus entry fee?

Now what you're doing is you're taking a special case scenario, above and beyond anything you posted above, simply to be contrary. You and I both know that this is a super-rare scenario. This is an event that could EASILY receive special consideration - you know the weather situation DAYS in advance, if not a week in advance. You contact the PDGA. You ask for some sort of waiver. You call the players and tell them that it'll be a special case, we need X, Y, Z from the PDGA, the players will have to accept X, Y, and Z changes.

That does NOT mean you go changing entire sanctioning rules for a special situation.

[cgkdisc]

That is one of several "special" situations that arise on occasion, not rarely. The policy for B-tiers should be written so the contingencies are built-in if possible.

[ChrisWoj]

Originally Posted by cgkdisc

That is one of several "special" situations that arise on occasion, not rarely. The policy for B-tiers should be written so the contingencies are built-in if possible.

Then get it in writing that $500 is required - and if there is a special circumstance like dire weather, etc. you are required to contact the PDGA **AHEAD OF TIME** and you need to contact the pre-registered players and alter advertising **AHEAD OF TIME** - You can't allow a loophole to exist for every underhanded tournament director to pocket money saying "Well there was added cash value here, here, here, and here." pointing to his gas costs, purchase of some signage, etc.

So what you're saying is I could have looked at this tournament field:
http://www.discgolfscene.com/tournam...e_Classic_2009
Saw that I was only getting six pros (my name is in there, but I paid in trophy-only money and just golfed the two rounds at the course I was the official at)... and told them "Well hey guys, you're actually only getting $150 added cash. Sorry, only six golfers. I can't go blowing all my money on your field. But I did spend money reserving space for our players party, transporting everything to the location of the awards/party, set up at both courses, this was spent on leg work... and so on.

If I do that to the players, do I wind up with:
http://www.discgolfscene.com/tournam...e_Classic_2010 ?
Your answer, in a word: NO. Not a chance! Word is going to get out that there might not even be $500 in cash added. And if you lose those guys, you lose the guys they convince to travel with them. Which means smaller preregistered am field, which discourages other players. Trickle down effect and suddenly the second Stateline looks just like the first.


On another note: I lived in Georgia. CLEARLY people know better than to run events during hurricane season, I experienced the lack of sanctioned events in southeast GA throughout the season. If you're dumb enough to run an event near the coast during hurricane season, that is your fault.

[cgkdisc]

Unlikely to happen. Now that the issue has been raised, it's pretty clear a more flexible policy is going to be written and not just for B-tiers. The TDs have been on the bottom in terms of considerations in events (pros, ams, sponsors, PDGA, TDs) and I see that balance changing.

[ChrisWoj]

Originally Posted by cgkdisc

Unlikely to happen. Now that the issue has been raised, it's pretty clear a more flexible policy is going to be written and not just for B-tiers. The TDs have been on the bottom in terms of considerations in events (pros, ams, sponsors, PDGA, TDs) and I see that balance changing.

Wow. Just wow. I suddenly don't see much of a difference between a C Tier and a B Tier. If the pros are no longer assured of the $500 added cash just by seeing the "B" next to the event name to draw them in, I may as well just run C Tiers in the future - and advertise like mad that I have the $500 added just like B Tiers used to have.

Personally - I'm going to stand by my stance that you're giving in to people that failed as TDs and are looking for excuses.

[cgkdisc]

You're implying that a TD is a failure if they don't have sufficient turnout? With that perspective, maybe TDs should have the right to cancel an event if not enough players sign up by maybe 10 days before the event? Only 50% refund for the players who pre-reged to help the TD cover sanctioning and other pre-event expenses fees so the players share the TDs risk. Would that be more fair? Despite the fact that you wish to make TDs into small business operators who take business risks, the reality is that most TDs are still breaking even or losing money and that's before counting their time and the time of other volunteers because they like doing it for the players.

If you wish to change to running C-tiers under some as yet to be redefined policy, that's still in the best interest of the players so go for it. However, I suspect there will be a few more TDs risking B-tiers in developing areas to make up for it and happier TDs overall knowing the PDGA has their backs perhaps a little more than before.

[ChrisWoj]

Originally Posted by cgkdisc

You're implying that a TD is a failure if they don't have sufficient turnout? With that perspective, maybe TDs should have the right to cancel an event if not enough players sign up by maybe 10 days before the event? Only 50% refund for the players who pre-reged to help the TD cover sanctioning and other pre-event expenses fees so the players share the TDs risk. Would that be more fair? Despite the fact that you wish to make TDs into small business operators who take business risks, the reality is that most TDs are still breaking even or losing money and that's before counting their time and the time of other volunteers because they like doing it for the players.

If you wish to change to running C-tiers under some as yet to be redefined policy, that's still in the best interest of the players so go for it. However, I suspect there will be a few more TDs risking B-tiers in developing areas to make up for it and happier TDs overall knowing the PDGA has their backs perhaps a little more than before.

What does the TD get out of running a B Tier versus running a C Tier? What are his/her bonuses?

[Droppinputts]

It sounds like to me as long as the pdga gets it's cut they don't care about how the event is paid out. Maybe the pdga can do more to help those tournament directors out. Otherwise I feel more and more events will start to be un-sactioned. The pro fields seem to be getting smaller at all events.

Just my 2 cents.

[Jeff_LaG]

Originally Posted by ChrisWoj

On another note: I lived in Georgia. CLEARLY people know better than to run events during hurricane season, I experienced the lack of sanctioned events in southeast GA throughout the season. If you're dumb enough to run an event near the coast during hurricane season, that is your fault.

FYI, the Atlantic Hurricane season is defined as from June 1st to November 30th. Are you saying that PDGA sanctioned events should not be run during this entire six month period in most of eastern Georgia & South Carolina? Are you saying that all the folks who have run events over the last 20 years in Savannah, Charleston, or even Augusta or Rock Hill are "dumb?"

If so, that's a fairly offensive accusation.

[cgkdisc]

Let's get at what is at the root of this issue, what's the answer to the question, "What is the benefit to the TD for offering pro divisions at a B or C-tier?" Not saying I can't think of a few but I'm interested to hear other's thoughts on this.

[ChrisWoj]

Originally Posted by Jeff_LaG

FYI, the Atlantic Hurricane season is defined as from June 1st to November 30th. Are you saying that PDGA sanctioned events should not be run during this entire six month period in most of eastern Georgia & South Carolina? Are you saying that all the folks who have run events over the last 20 years in Savannah, Charleston, or even Augusta or Rock Hill are "dumb?"

If so, that's a fairly offensive accusation.

Agreed - Hurricane season is long. I'm an environmental educator, I've taught out on the barrier islands - I know this. And I stand by my comment. The start and end dates of hurricane season have fluctuated throughout the years. At one point in time it only lasted through mid-October and started in almost July. Frankly, aside from a few occurrences though, you don't see hurricanes hitting near the coast throughout that entire period. The seasonal definition is more of a case of "better safe than sorry."

Since the mid-1500s we have on record only 7 hurricanes hitting the east coast outside of the period of Aug 10-Oct 10. If anyone is dumb enough to host a big tournament on the coast within that 2 months stretch - well... yeah, dumb idea. Very much so. And out of those 7 only 4 have occurred outside of August-October (in the June-July/November period you included in your post).

And frankly, judging by how few tournaments I saw out there when I was living there: not too many TDs are dumb enough or willing to take the risk to run events during that period. So really, seeing as how most avoid that period along the southeast part of the coast... No, I'm not really insulting anybody. (and c'mon, ROCK HILL? Do you know how few hurricanes see their actual eye hit the coast that far south along the eastern seaboard? C'mon now, I can't think of any other than Hugo.)

[ChrisWoj]

Originally Posted by cgkdisc

Let's get at what is at the root of this issue, what's the answer to the question, "What is the benefit to the TD for offering pro divisions at a B or C-tier?" Not saying I can't think of a few but I'm interested to hear other's thoughts on this.

Well, at a tournament in general... the main one is that they tend to bring friends. I rarely travel with other pros (mostly because of how bereft Toledo is of tournament playing pros), so I'm usually riding with 3-4 amateurs.

As for the benefits overall of offering a pro division, period, there really isn't one. Maybe we should just say screw it and save the TDs the trouble and eliminate the Open Division entirely? They're the only lames at the tournament that the TD isn't profiting off of at a typical C/B Tier event.

[cgkdisc]

I don't think "profit" is necessary, just help covering tournament expenses. How do pros help in that regard?

[ChrisWoj]

Originally Posted by cgkdisc

I don't think "profit" is necessary, just help covering tournament expenses. How do pros help in that regard?

How do the pros help cover tournament expenses... Other than using them as an advertising ticket "We're looking for sponsors, we have an event that is going to draw the top pros from the region..." things like that, I'm not sure if I can think of anything. I'm interested to hear your thoughts on this.

I make sure to thank the TD anytime I'm at a well run event, because I know I'm not doing a lot for them other than drawing in some friends to play. I see the Open Division more as a way of growing the talent in the sport at most smaller tournaments, it is a goal to strive for - to be able to compete in open - and drives players to move up. In some cases this can help the TD: Higher amateur divisions usually have higher entry fees, so players attempting to improve and become pros one day are providing a nice aid to the profit margin via the merch they're paying for with their entry fees.

But thats all very roundabout - directly I can't think of much the pros do at smaller events for the TD.

[DSproAVIAR]

Originally Posted by cgkdisc

You're taking Brian's words related to a specific case and extending them as his full blown policy. He and others simply believe that below some level of turnout, the cash can be spread around. Look for the policy to be clarified in the 2012 docs.

Chuck,

Take a look at Table 1 here-

http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/TourStandards.pdf

It's easy to see that "added cash" has the same definition no matter what tier or amount of money it applies to.

Brian Graham is defining "added cash" as money that is "invested into the tournament".

So yes that is a full blown policy for any event, and to clarify the conclusion that we have reached here-

TD's for any level of event are now not required to add any cash to the pro purse, ever.

[cgkdisc]

Brian's interpretation is not in writing yet. The 2012 policy words are unlikely to be as simple as you are currently interpreting his words that were in reference to low turnout B-tiers. At the moment, all it means is the Tour Manager isn't likely to scold a TD with low turnout if $500 wasn't added to the pro purse as indicated in the TD report.

[cgkdisc]

I don't think "profit" is necessary, just help covering tournament expenses. How do pros help in that regard?

Let's see posted 8 hours (chirp) ago and no pro nor anyone for (chirp) that matter has provided (chirp) some ideas. I'll post a few in the morning (chirp) if we don't see any to keep these crickets company...

[johnrock]

Many of the pros around here have been playing (and organizing events) for a long time and they understand about event expenses. These are the dudes who usually run weed eaters, paint lines, trim rogue branches, fill water jugs, hunt for sponsors, or bring some extra cash to put into the pot. Well, maybe that's just me, but you get the idea.

[cgkdisc]

Nice John. Those are on my list.

[ChrisWoj]

Originally Posted by cgkdisc

Nice John. Those are on my list.

Those aren't necessarily on my list - because those aren't things that only the pros can do. I've done more course cleanup and clearing in the Toledo area over the past two years (despite spending only 4 months of that time living here) than anyone - and I don't consider that anything to put next to my name as a pro. That is something that one should simply do as a dedicated community member.

The question is what do the pros do for B and C Tiers, and thats simply a what can the community do?


-Chris.

[cgkdisc]

The direct question was how do pros help a TD with tournament expenses and the related question is why would a TD host pro divisions. Here's what I've got on my list and these aren't necessarily unique to pros but also not a reason to exclude them either:

1. Those who helped the TD prepare or build the courses or prep for the tournament in other ways may be pros (per John's post) and the TD throws them a bone by hosting their pro division.
2. Related to that is the TD is a pro and wants to play in their own event.
3. Pros could have brought in sponsor money or merch for the event.
4. Pro divisions are easier to handle with cash payouts versus needing to buy merch to cover Am prizes or deal with a local merchant if the TD isn't in the business of selling disc merch other than events.
5. More Ams might enter if first round mixes pros with ams in groups.
6. In C-tiers, pro payout only has to be 85%, so they can contribute to event expenses if the TD actually does pay out 85% and not 100% or more without sponsorship.
7. If tournament expense fees are built into the entry fees, which is allowed, pros can help cover fixed event expenses like shelter and course fees if the event is unlikely to fill with only Ams.

The point is it takes a little more work for both the pros and the TD to "justify" their inclusion in events in comparison with Ams. We should be looking for ways to support the TDs efforts so there's a better balance in the reasons they would want to host pro divisions in the lower tiers.

[ChrisWoj]

Originally Posted by cgkdisc

The direct question was how do pros help a TD with tournament expenses and the related question is why would a TD host pro divisions. Here's what I've got on my list and these aren't necessarily unique to pros but also not a reason to exclude them either:

1. Those who helped the TD prepare or build the courses or prep for the tournament in other ways may be pros (per John's post) and the TD throws them a bone by hosting their pro division.
2. Related to that is the TD is a pro and wants to play in their own event.
3. Pros could have brought in sponsor money or merch for the event.
4. Pro divisions are easier to handle with cash payouts versus needing to buy merch to cover Am prizes or deal with a local merchant if the TD isn't in the business of selling disc merch other than events.
5. More Ams might enter if first round mixes pros with ams in groups.
6. In C-tiers, pro payout only has to be 85%, so they can contribute to event expenses if the TD actually does pay out 85% and not 100% or more without sponsorship.
7. If tournament expense fees are built into the entry fees, which is allowed, pros can help cover fixed event expenses like shelter and course fees if the event is unlikely to fill with only Ams.

The point is it takes a little more work for both the pros and the TD to "justify" their inclusion in events in comparison with Ams. We should be looking for ways to support the TDs efforts so there's a better balance in the reasons they would want to host pro divisions in the lower tiers.

I can see all of your points here. I suppose I misread the initial question. It seemed to me that you wanted things that only the pro players could do for an event. Yes, everything you described is something a pro can do, although many of the things you brought up are things that anybody in the community could do (and in some cases, things they SHOULD do if they're dedicated to their community).

Maybe its just my view as a pro - but I just have never seen the need to take from the purse (for any division) to pay for expenses. As I said before - a huge chunk of the money can come from the profit on the merchandise that a tournament director "sells" to all of the amateurs at the tournament. What cripples a tournament far worse, IMHO, is a small amateur field - not a small pro field. I value at below MSRP for the purpose of payouts, and still make a nice profit. Virtually all tournament directors value at well over MSRP. And only a few have overhead to deal with (like the IDGC). Honestly the only people I can see that should have trouble financing a decent B Tier are people that outsource their merch to a local dealer.

(discounting, of course, the people in Los Angeles that apparently pay parks $700 to use their facilities, which I think is COMPLETELY absurd, but hell if its out there, its out there, yikes)