Ask Chuck Kennedy

[Jeff_LaG]

It's surprising how prevalent this misperception about ratings is. There was a former Masters world champion a few weeks ago who asked a question at a tournament about round ratings for that day's rounds being yielded by averaging them with previous ratings from events long passed, and we had to explain that this was not how ratings were calculated.

Round ratings are yielded solely from the scores and the current player ratings of propagators playing that specific round. The only times that data from another round would be used would be in the case that the exact same layout is used during that same event, all rounds would get averaged in the official process. The only exception to that rule is if the tournament director notes that there were severe weather conditions for one of the rounds...it would then not be used for the averages and would be rated independantly.

[tanner]

Originally Posted by cgkdisc

Buncr rule played better statistically than any previous year or last year which was actually just buncr+1. Buncr+1 is a statistically different game than disc golf, not just statistically tougher. Although I don't see it as a better version, if it's going to be done, then it should be done officially at minimum on every course played in A-tiers and higher with similarly tough OB lines and areas added on most holes. If that's the game, then that's what we all should be playing so that ratings and stats are based on that new form of game. Otherwise, it's like playing an alternative version of DG different from what all the players were playing to qualify for the US Championships, sort of like springing a different format like Super Class or buying mulligans on the players at the last second.

I’m glad we’re playing Disc golf rather than statistics golf. And I agree it should be used more often.

Another question…I played a three course tournament this weekend, 2 of the courses offered very little score separation, the entire open division was with 4 strokes of each other, with half the advanced division shooting virtually the same scores as open. This is going to make the ratings look rather poor for MPO correct? Scores won’t be posted for awhile and I’m getting curious what it’s going to look like.

[cgkdisc]

If the scoring spread is only 4 throws and the ratings spread from top to bottom among those players is greater than 40 points, then the ratings range will be narrower than ideal. The average of ratings produced will still be equal to the average ratings of the propagators which is always true.

I can only get on the soapbox so often. Hole design does matter but very few take the effort to actually gather and look at data and tweak the designs to produce better scoring spreads. Granted, many don't know how to do that which is why having some of the more experienced course designers involved can assist with that.

[tanner]

Is distance the biggest factor for separation?

Do things like elevation or elevated baskets have a similar impact as distance?

Is there a document providing guidelines for different skill levels?

I'm working on getting a tournament on a 9-hole executive golf course that also has a ski hill. I realize I'll need 2 sets of tees. Also there will be a flat wide open transition hole, possibly 2 where I'd like to put an elevated basket. I'd like to make it fun for everyone. Thanks for your response.

[cgkdisc]

Join the Disc Golf Course Designers group or talk with Kenton. The Hole Forecaster tool we use helps you figure out appropriate distances (most important) and adjust for foliage and hazards. Elevated pins might not add more than 0.1 to the scoring average unless it's windy. Then maybe 0.2. In comparison, the rule of thumb is 0.1 added to the hole scoring average for every 30 feet added (gold level).

[tanner]

Thanks Chuck.

[ERicJ]

Originally Posted by cgkdisc

You can still see the Course Stats for each event that's been rated.

Um, not anymore:

Originally Posted by PDGA Website

We apologize for any inconvenience but course ratings are no longer available.

Is that a permanent change?

The "Event Info" link on each tourney page now just redirects back to itself vs. showing you what the SSA was.

[cgkdisc]

I think this is related to the current website upgrade. In the short term, you can still determine SSAs by looking at where the 1000 rated round falls. I'm pressing for the next version of the results display to indicate which course was played by various divisions each round.

[Kette_Master]

I'm working on a spreadsheet to use at tournaments and minis and would like to be able to figure an estimated round rating.
Is there a formula I can use?

[cgkdisc]

You can buy the PDGA iPhone app and use it to get estimated ratings. You could also look online at past events on those courses to see what the ratings were for various scores.

[Kette_Master]

Originally Posted by cgkdisc

You can buy the PDGA iPhone app and use it to get estimated ratings. You could also look online at past events on those courses to see what the ratings were for various scores.

I don't want to manually figure the estimated round rating but rather have the spreadsheet do it for me.

[cgkdisc]

That info is not available. Providing ratings thru tournament play is an important PDGA member benefit. I provided some ways you can figure out similar information.

[JenniferB]

How do some folks have ratings, but no rounds played (e.g., steady ed)?

[cgkdisc]

Don't know for sure, but at one point there was a request to retain deceased members' stats like Steady Ed online. Perhaps that has happened so his last rating is shown. At each ratings update, the current records if any of everyone with a PDGA number are 'processed' whether current or not including deceased members. If no new events, their rating remains the same indefinitely.

[Patrick P]

In the recent Santa Maria Open (http://www.pdga.com/tournament_results/66169) when uploading the TD report, the Rating Course Layout for round 2 somehow converts to round 1 layout.

Round 1 & 3 is played at Waller Park, par is 82. Round 2 is played at Preisker, par is 54. Under tournament administration, round 2 would be deleted and re-selected as course 2, Preisker Park, par 54. Then the TD report would be removed and then re-uploaded. Each time though the 2nd rd kept changing back to Waller Park, par 82. The TD report is correct. Under the 'Event Info' tab, the two course layouts are listed, and Course Layout code is correct. On the tournament results, rating for round 2 seems correct, however overall 'To Par' score is calculated using par 82 for all three rounds. Why is this happening and how can it be corrected?

[krupicka]

In the TD admin page, click Ratings and update which divisions played which layouts for a given round. That should fix it.

[cgkdisc]

Yes, the course layout settings on the Event Info page of the TD Report are not uploaded to the TD Admin page, just the players and scores. No connection. You have to do as Krupicka said and manually assign the courses to each division by round under the Ratings menu.

[Patrick P]

If I have an event where every division plays rd 1 at one course, and plays rd 2 at a 2nd course, then under the admin page where it allows you to select course and round, shouldn't it be a default to apply those settings to all divisions? If I mixed it up, then that would make sense to manually go in and assign rounds/courses to each division.

[cgkdisc]

All divisions in each round are assigned to the "Default" course listed with 18 holes and par of 54 regardless if you add other courses. If everyone plays the same course in R1 and a different one in R2, the ratings will calculate properly if the second course is also 18 holes and the same par. Par doesn't matter for ratings, just the over/under values on the score results page. If different divisions play different courses in the same round, that's when it's important to make sure to do the course assignments properly.

[Patrick P]

I don't have the TD admin page in front of me, but when I was trying to figure this out with the TD, there was a selection that allowed us to choose which course was used for a round. So we chose round 1 as Waller. Then we chose Preisker as round 2. When we went to upload the TD report, the course on round 2 on the admin page was changed back to Waller.

1) Why does round 2 course keep switching back to round 1 course?

2) I'm not understanding what you mean "default" course. There is the selection to choose which course is used for each round.

[cgkdisc]

There's a default course there when you first start that TDs rename and also add new ones. The most likely thing that happened is you forgot to tap the Update button after doing the course assignments for that round on the Ratings page so it didn't lock in your choices.

[Patrick P]

We did hit the update button. We even deleted the upload, added the courses in, selected which course were for each round, hit the update button, and uploaded the TD report. We did this several times and it kept changing the round 2 course back to Waller. We didn't however choose the course for each division, as each played the same course each round.

[cgkdisc]

I got Preskier to stick in Round 2 and update ratings. In the future, you don't need to enter hole-by-hole information unless you did live scoring.

[Patrick P]

Originally Posted by cgkdisc

I got Preskier to stick in Round 2 and update ratings. In the future, you don't need to enter hole-by-hole information unless you are did live scoring.

Thanks Chuck for your help.

[JenniferB]

When TDs choose to use the online PDGA signup, and we sign up though it, why are we not automatically added to the prereg list?

[cgkdisc]

That's been in the works and should be linked up soon after the Drupal upgrade is completed.

[JenniferB]

OK.

I'm curious about average standard deviation in ratings of pros, intermediates, rec players, and novices. Have you formed an impression you can share regarding what kind of SD the top pros have, and how that compares to players in other ratings categories?

[cgkdisc]

I haven't broken it down in detail but the SD is around 28 +/- 8 for those over 950, 32 +8/-5 for 850-950 and 37 +3/-5 for under 850. Since we cap it at 40, I don't know how much over 40 the real numbers might be for many players under 850.

[JenniferB]

Thanks, Chuck. That's some pretty awesome detail. As a player, I think it would be interesting to see SDs on ratings details pages, so that we can get an idea of our own and other player's consistency, and potential to score much higher or lower than the listed rating. Do you think this information might be added in the future, so that we don't have to plug the round ratings into an SD calculator?

[cgkdisc]

Yes. SD and several other player stats are in the plans. I've been champing at the bit for years now to get the website updated so this additional player information can be added.