Ask Chuck Kennedy

[JenniferB]

Assuming a TD error has resulted in my new rating being slightly higher than deserved, should I contact the TD (again, because I already got it corrected once, but it seems to have gotten changed back in the update) or should I bug you, or go away, or what?

[cgkdisc]

I'm not the one who corrects the errors. Contact the TD who then works it out with the Tour Director for the next update.

[jHarr]

1.ok for a td to call the 2meter rule to be in effect ONLY inside each and every putting circle...?
2.sunflower shells are litter or not?
3.are non alcoholic cans of beer too controversial to be seen drinking during a tourney?

[cgkdisc]

None of these are official. Contact Tour Manager for official answers:

- Yes, but gimmicky and likely hard to call when disc suspended near 10m out.

- Yes, unless sunflowers are either growing in the park or there are birdfeeders in the park that provide sunflower seeds.

- Maybe not a good idea but not against the rules.

(Note: talked with Tour Manager and he agreed with these answers)

[JenniferB]

When is the course ratings page coming back?

www.pdga.com/course-ratings-by-course

[cgkdisc]

No current plans. You can still see the Course Stats for each event that's been rated.

[JenniferB]

Is there a way to search events by course? I'm playing a tournament at a course I have never played, so I just need to find all of the events that were ever played on that course and find one with a similar layout to figure out the SSA.

[cgkdisc]

No search like that I'm aware of. You can do advanced searches to narrow down by state and the cities of those events will be shown in that list. And it's pretty common that the same event will be run about the same dates each year.

[discette]

Originally Posted by JenniferB

Is there a way to search events by course? I'm playing a tournament at a course I have never played, so I just need to find all of the events that were ever played on that course and find one with a similar layout to figure out the SSA.

Jen

You can do a search tath will actually provide you with all the SSA's of all the previous events - it just takes a few steps.

First, you must know the name and date of a previous event on the course.

Go to the "official results" for the event.

At the top of the event results page it gives you a choice of EVENT INFO/COURSE STATISTICS. Click on Course Statistics.

You are then taken to a page that will show the course(s) used for the event. You can find further information on a specific course by clicking that course name.

You end up at a page showing all the various layouts for that course for the past years including SSA's:
http://www.pdga.com/course_ratings_by_course/114

Link is to the results for El Dorado DGC SSA's - as getting there through the the above procedure.

(TD's are supposed to enter courses on TD reports as listed in the PDGA Directory. If they don't, this method doesn't work so well. )

[ERicJ]

Originally Posted by JenniferB

Is there a way to search events by course? I'm playing a tournament at a course I have never played, so I just need to find all of the events that were ever played on that course and find one with a similar layout to figure out the SSA.

Use a google site limited search. In the google search box enter "site:http://www.pdga.com/course_ratings_by_course/" and the name of the course you want.

E.g.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.pdga.com%2Fcourse_ratin gs_by_course%2F+moffitt
or
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.pdga.com%2Fcourse_ratin gs_by_course%2F+%22El+Dorado%22

[bruce_brakel]

Originally Posted by jHarr

1.ok for a td to call the 2meter rule to be in effect ONLY inside each and every putting circle...?
2.sunflower shells are litter or not?
3.are non alcoholic cans of beer too controversial to be seen drinking during a tourney?

Candy cigarettes at Pro Worlds?

[JenniferB]

Thanks for the help with finding the SSAs!

I keep wondering why the tool was permanently removed to search by course name feature. Was it fear of people trying to sandbag and runup their handicaps for the USDGC?

[krupicka]

More likely it is to prevent other web sites from scraping the data and providing rating services.

[AWSmith]

Originally Posted by JenniferB

When is the course ratings page coming back?

www.pdga.com/course-ratings-by-course

its called DGCR

[JenniferB]

Originally Posted by krupicka

More likely it is to prevent other web sites from scraping the data and providing rating services.

Do you mean DGU? Have there been any sites other than PDGA and DGU that do any kind of ratings?

its called DGCR

The DGCR reported average score and SSA do not correlate well in my experience. For example, DFW courses ranked by DGCR reported average round score (score/par) for the most difficult permanent and commonly played tees, I get the order below (Bicentennial's data are normalized to 18 holes):

Gateway---------DGCR info: 73.60/62----No Tournament info Available
Harry Myers-----DGCR info: 68.40/60----Mean 60.07--Samples 1--SD N/A
Turner Park------DGCR info: 64.78/58----Mean 53.98--Samples 3--SD 2.74
Z-Boaz-----------DGCR info: 62.99/54----Mean 54.44--Samples 29-SD 2.05
Lorch-Beaver----DGCR info: 62.89/54----Mean 51.69--Samples 7--SD 0.34
Veteran’s---------DGCR info: 62.75/54----Mean 49.77--Samples 37-SD 2.17
Audubon----------DGCR info: 61.46/54----Mean 50.57--Samples 5--SD 1.20
Lorch-Coyote----DCRG info: 61.31/54----Mean 51.36--Samples 7--SD 0.81
Greenbriar-------DGCR info: 60.70/54----No Tournament Info Available
Towne Lake------DGCR info: 60.63/59----Mean 55.36--Samples 5--SD 2.28
Paschall----------DGCR info: 58.86/56----Mean 52.74--Samples 1--SD N/A
BB Owen---------DGCR info: 58.27/54----Mean 46.04--Samples 4--SD 1.06
Bicentennial------DGCR info: 57.85/54----Mean 54.50--Samples 1--SD N/A
Lake Lewisville---DGCR info: 57.27/54----Mean 48.53--Samples 3--SD 0.39
LL Woods---------DGCR info: 55.99/54----Mean 46.92--Samples 3--SD 0.80
Jimmy Porter-----DGCR info: 55.63/54----Mean 48.52--Samples 1--SD N/A
Alex Clark--------DGCR info: 51.35/54----Mean 47.45--Samples 1--SD N/A

I tried to duplicate the results by picking out PDGA tournament round SSAs for 18 holes and averaging them (18+ holes normalized to 18 holes for certain courses). I didn't take rounds from short, temp, or championship tees, and I avoided rounds with temp holes. The ranking is very different.

Harry Myers------Samples 1----Mean 60.07----SD N/A---DGCR info: 68.40/60
Towne Lake------Samples 5----Mean 55.36----SD 2.28---DGCR info: 60.63/59
Bicentennial------Samples 1----Mean 54.50----SD N/A----DGCR info: 57.85/54
Z-Boaz-----------Samples 29---Mean 54.44----SD 2.05---DGCR info: 62.99/54
Turner Park------Samples 3----Mean 53.98----SD 2.74---DGCR info: 64.78/58
Paschall----------Samples 1----Mean 52.74----SD N/A----DGCR info: 58.86/56
Lorch-Beaver----Samples 7----Mean 51.69----SD 0.34---DGCR info: 62.89/54
Lorch-Coyote----Samples 7----Mean 51.36----SD 0.81---DCRG info: 61.31/54
Audubon---------Samples 5----Mean 50.57----SD 1.20---DGCR info: 61.46/54
Veteran’s--------Samples 37---Mean 49.77----SD 2.17---DGCR info: 62.75/54
Lake Lewisville--Samples 3----Mean 48.53----SD 0.39---DGCR info: 57.27/54
Jimmy Porter----Samples 1----Mean 48.52----SD N/A----DGCR info: 55.63/54
Alex Clark-------Samples 1----Mean 47.45----SD N/A----DGCR info: 51.35/54
LL Woods--------Samples 3----Mean 46.92----SD 0.80---DGCR info: 55.99/54
BB Owen--------Samples 4----Mean 46.04----SD 1.06---DGCR info: 58.27/54

There is a DGCR thread about this topic at http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums...reply&p=920105

[bruce_brakel]

Chuck, serious question this time.

Jaybird Mount Pleasant Open Day 2

http://www.pdga.com/tournament_results/73731

The novice men and intermediate women played short tees, which was an appropriate call for the course and their skills. However, there were not enough gators to produce unofficial ratings. There are some sub-800 players with quite a few rounds in their database. Do you think they might get ratings by some manual process like has happened sometimes at other tournaments where Intermediate and Rec women get short tees?

Just eyeballing the data, the players' ratings correlate strongly with their order of finish. Diana felt like her rounds were consistent with her current rating and she shot similar scores to two men with a similar rating, so ratings generated off the best non-gators here would be likely to be as valid as if there had been sufficient gators.

[cgkdisc]

We've been able to rate rounds manually when there aren't enough propagators so it shouldn't be a problem. Roger is close to allowing players with established ratings down to 750 to be gators anyway so this will be a good test.

[bruce_brakel]

If you use people rated less than 800, they should be called impropagators.

[tanner]

Chuck,

In the interview on the front page, Jonathan led me to believe throw and distance will be used this year. Do you have any info regarding how Winthrop will be played? My league partner qualified and is really hoping I can help him prepare. Any info is appreciated. Thanks.

[cgkdisc]

Some of us tried to persuade them not to use throw and distance for 2011 (or ever again for that matter). Far as I know their plan is to use T&D again. I think you just have to ask them.

[tanner]

Originally Posted by cgkdisc

Some of us tried to persuade them not to use throw and distance for 2011 (or ever again for that matter). Far as I know their plan is to use T&D again. I think you just have to ask them.

Why never again?

After 6 years of playing the event I really felt they finally got it right last year...other then the 2 days notice. No corny buncr rule, no arbitrary spots, no lobbying for position, no burden on the spotters....just seemed to work and play really well.

[cgkdisc]

Buncr rule played better statistically than any previous year or last year which was actually just buncr+1. Buncr+1 is a statistically different game than disc golf, not just statistically tougher. Although I don't see it as a better version, if it's going to be done, then it should be done officially at minimum on every course played in A-tiers and higher with similarly tough OB lines and areas added on most holes. If that's the game, then that's what we all should be playing so that ratings and stats are based on that new form of game. Otherwise, it's like playing an alternative version of DG different from what all the players were playing to qualify for the US Championships, sort of like springing a different format like Super Class or buying mulligans on the players at the last second.

[dwiggmd]

Chuck,

As a "B" tier event, how does the world tournament fit into the poy and roy picture. Are there two tournaments, i.e. the world tournament and the local tournament? If so the round rating, if good, might be counted twice towards poy/roy. Also, how is the finish position calculated for the "world" portion?

[cgkdisc]

A player's ranking within each global event division is simply based on the sum of each player's three round ratings. A player shoots a 990, 1000 and 1010 rated rounds and their score for the global standings is 3000.

Each B-tier (British is A-tier) result will be just like any other B-tier in terms of POY and ROY. The Global rankings won't be used for POY/ROY/World rankings at least this year. Some events will have more than three 18-hole rounds like a Final 9 and those scores will only count for the local event standings.

[dwiggmd]

Thanks, So in other words, for POY/ROY purposes, it is as if it is just a local tournament - round ratings (rounds over 13 holes) and finish position of the "local" portion are used.

[cgkdisc]

Yep.

[Here4Beer]

Chuck,

I was trying to find qualifying requirements for the 2012 Amateur world championships (charlotte). Could only find them for 2011 - I'll assume for now they will apply in '12.

Let's focus on criteria 2 - "Other players who finished in the the Top 25% of Points earners within their State/Province/Country..."

Q1) How does one determine (or more precisely, access the information) for the top 25% of points earners in their state?

edit - I think I found the answer here: http://www.pdga.com/player_search_addition_results

Q2) Does it matter what level points are earned? (say 100 points at REC, 200 points at INT and 150 at Masters are earned) Do all 450 points count for world's qualification purposes?

Thanks for your help.
H4B

[cgkdisc]

Q1) No way at the moment. By the time the new website update is completed by end of summer, they will be working on ways for you to select and filter data to see things like that.

Q2) All points you earn in Amateur divisions count toward your total for a potential invite.

[JenniferB]

Chuck, can you please tell us a little more about how round ratings change when made official due to being averaged in with previous SSAs for the same layout?

For example, if the previous SSAs for a course layout were 50, and then the next tournament had unofficial ratings indicating the SSA on the same layout at 46, would it be reasonable to expect the ratings at the second event to go up by 15-20 points upon being made official due to the averaging?

[cgkdisc]

No old tournament data is ever used for averaging, only scores from different rounds in the same event on the same layout get averaged in the official process, but not in the unofficial process when scores are posted by the TD.