Ask Dave Dunipace About Innova Discs

[Honor Guard]

Originally Posted by Furthur

People are just too lazy to use the search button.

incorrect assumption; did do a search. far too many word variables involved to get a coherent, definitive response.

your 2 cents however, is much appreciated.

[veearesix]

Originally Posted by Honor Guard

incorrect assumption; did do a search. far too many word variables involved to get a coherent, definitive response.

your 2 cents however, is much appreciated.

I find it funny when people feel the need to cry about the search aspect. I did search. Hence why I came here to ask Dave why Innova stopped making CE plastic.

[evandmckee]

Originally Posted by veearesix

I find it funny when people feel the need to cry about the search aspect. I did search. Hence why I came here to ask Dave why Innova stopped making CE plastic.

look back at post #9064 , I searched "CE Plastic" under equipment by davei

[gdstour]

I'm not Dave D but have an opinion on why CE type plastic was discontinued by the polymer manufacturer (not by the molder Dave D at innova).
Typically injection molding companies in the US ( in order to make profit and be competitive) would want to be able to run parts as fast as possible, That particular type of TPU material took very long to set up. A disc made with current TPU ( champion, star, Evolution) usually takes about 40-60 seconds to be molded and demolded, where it is then set on a table for an additional 5 -6 minutes to cool.

We ran a similar style of plastic ( which we called nike spirits) that took nearly 3 minutes to set up,,,, meaning that at the end of an 8 hour shift instead of having 500 or so discs you would only have 160 ( thats if they were all good parts), and this particular type of urethane also produced lots of short shots ( bad parts) because it was also extremely difficult to mold through the .070 thick flight plate into a 1" triangular rim because of low flow rates. I heard from one innova molder that most of the CE discs were red, most likely do to the fact that the red colorant probably helped increase flow rates .

Since this material was so hard to mold ( not just by disc makers but most who used it) and often took up to 3 times as long to make a part, the polymer manufacturing company probably changed their formulation to be more competitive with the fast changing world of TPU development.

All in all there are about 40 different TPUs that could be used alone or blended together to produce HIGH END golf discs. I'd say the current Star discs are every bit as durable as the CE stuff and in my opinion are better engineered through formulations by Dave D to meet the requirements needed to achieve the right flex, surface feel (and whats most important,,,, )flight characteristic, for each specific model its molded.

does this sound accurate dave D?

[davei]

Originally Posted by gdstour

I'm not Dave D but have an opinion on why CE type plastic was discontinued by the polymer manufacturer (not by the molder Dave D at innova).
Typically injection molding companies in the US ( in order to make profit and be competitive) would want to be able to run parts as fast as possible, That particular type of TPU material took very long to set up. A disc made with current TPU ( champion, star, Evolution) usually takes about 40-60 seconds to be molded and demolded, where it is then set on a table for an additional 5 -6 minutes to cool.

We ran a similar style of plastic ( which we called nike spirits) that took nearly 3 minutes to set up,,,, meaning that at the end of an 8 hour shift instead of having 500 or so discs you would only have 160 ( thats if they were all good parts), and this particular type of urethane also produced lots of short shots ( bad parts) because it was also extremely difficult to mold through the .070 thick flight plate into a 1" triangular rim because of low flow rates. I heard from one innova molder that most of the CE discs were red, most likely do to the fact that the red colorant probably helped increase flow rates .

Since this material was so hard to mold ( not just by disc makers but most who used it) and often took up to 3 times as long to make a part, the polymer manufacturing company probably changed their formulation to be more competitive with the fast changing world of TPU development.

All in all there are about 40 different TPUs that could be used alone or blended together to produce HIGH END golf discs. I'd say the current Star discs are every bit as durable as the CE stuff and in my opinion are better engineered through formulations by Dave D to meet the requirements needed to achieve the right flex, surface feel (and whats most important,,,, )flight characteristic, for each specific model its molded.

does this sound accurate dave D?

I wish I could get a 40 sec cycle. Ours are more like 50-80 seconds. That particular plastic didn't take much more than 60 seconds, so it wasn't that, but I'm sure they had some reason or just couldn't make it anymore. We have manufacturer's changes in materials all the time that we don't want changed. Nothing we can do about it other than shop around for materials. Most of the slight mold changes we make are an effort to keep our discs flying or molding the same with the changing plastics. Also, there are many more urethane plastics than 40. When you add all the variations, it's well over 400. I know one manufacturer who has over 40, so it's a maze. The sales people you talk to trying to get suitable plastic don't know what they are talking about most of the time so the only way to find plastic is to get samples and test it. You can't trust the numbers or the sales people.

And you're right about the mixing to get the right flex, feel, and flight. Rarely do we use just one type of plastic for a run.

We have the ability to get custom made plastics and it still comes out wrong most of the time. A bit frustrating.

[kinfolkfan]

Originally Posted by gdstour

I'd say the current Star discs are every bit as durable as the CE stuff

You must hit your lines instead of trees. IMO Star is no where near the durability, and trust me I hit tons of trees.

[AWSmith]

@gdstour and daveD

thank you both for the little tid bit on plastics and molding. i do find it interesting.

Originally Posted by kinfolkfan

You must hit your lines instead of trees. IMO Star is no where near the durability, and trust me I hit tons of trees.

which run of CE are you discussing? if its the transparent runs then you are basically throwing Champ/candy plastic. if its opaque its more 'pro-ish' type plastic if i remember correctly and actually wears in quite fast. When i started playing is when the last 2 (maybe 3) runs were made. So i mostly threw the CE (pre candy plastic) and i believe the 3rd run (these were the last opaque ones i think) back then.
im no collector or CE expert but i have thrown every run on CE in Valks, teebirds, and eagles when they were new to the scene. so my rund numbers are most likely wrong.


@dave D
i have noticed as i start to replace some of my lost/beat to hell star discs from 5-6yrs ago that the plastic feels a great deal different. i know some slight changes have happened but i am most interested in the feel. the older star seems to feel 'drier' (i have no idea how else to explain it) and has a rougher grip so to say. the new stuff feels more slick and seems to hold more moisture. during the summer months i have really began to notice this with grip lock issues. the old 'dry' star never presented these issues for me. any chance you could explain the difference? if it is based on moisture does that mean there is enough variance to were i would be able to find ones with the drier feel?

if it helps, examples of the drier feel, that you can use as a time period reference, would be the bar stamp SOLF 1.0s i guess you could call them. first run and first standard run of teerexes.

[davei]

Originally Posted by smyith

@gdstour and daveD

@dave D
i have noticed as i start to replace some of my lost/beat to hell star discs from 5-6yrs ago that the plastic feels a great deal different. i know some slight changes have happened but i am most interested in the feel. the older star seems to feel 'drier' (i have no idea how else to explain it) and has a rougher grip so to say. the new stuff feels more slick and seems to hold more moisture. during the summer months i have really began to notice this with grip lock issues. the old 'dry' star never presented these issues for me. any chance you could explain the difference? if it is based on moisture does that mean there is enough variance to were i would be able to find ones with the drier feel?

if it helps, examples of the drier feel, that you can use as a time period reference, would be the bar stamp SOLF 1.0s i guess you could call them. first run and first standard run of teerexes.

I'm not sure what feeling you are referring to but it might relate to the particular batch of plastic. Most of the stuff we are making right now feels pretty grippy to me, but I have noticed a slick feeling a couple of years ago, and from time to time. I really don't know what causes it but it is not the usual. I do know that if your Champ and Star discs feel slick, you can wipe them with Windex wipes and they will feel just fine. That tells me that there is something on the surface. That "something" might be dust or something exuding from the plastic itself. Occasionally, we have color bleeding out that not only gets on hands, but makes the disc feel weird too, so things can bleed out of the plastic.

[JenniferB]

Dave, I have become a fan of the classic aviar with no bead, and I keep hearing conflicting information from different people comparing the aviar putt and approach (P&A) to the classic aviar. It seems that the majority are claiming that the P&A used to be small bead, but that it is now no bead, and therefore identical to the classic aviar, which would make the innova chart flight numbers wrong for the P&A. Others would have me believe that the classic aviar and P&A are each run in small bead and in no bead, and what you get when you place an order is a bit of a crap shoot. Will you please settle the debate for me, and maybe shed some light on where people get these ideas?

[davei]

Originally Posted by JenniferB

Dave, I have become a fan of the classic aviar with no bead, and I keep hearing conflicting information from different people comparing the aviar putt and approach (P&A) to the classic aviar. It seems that the majority are claiming that the P&A used to be small bead, but that it is now no bead, and therefore identical to the classic aviar, which would make the innova chart flight numbers wrong for the P&A. Others would have me believe that the classic aviar and P&A are each run in small bead and in no bead, and what you get when you place an order is a bit of a crap shoot. Will you please settle the debate for me, and maybe shed some light on where people get these ideas?

The Classic Aviars and the P&A are both no bead now. The Classic was originally no bead. The P&A was originally no bead too, then was small bead for a number of years. They are both back to original. The difference is the material they are made with. The P&A is made with a softer material and the Classic is made with a firm to very firm material. The numbers reflect the material differences, but don't always match the exact run. Classics make better drivers than the P&A. We no longer offer any small bead Aviars. However, Millenium does.

[Martin_Bohn]

Originally Posted by davei

I'm not sure what feeling you are referring to but it might relate to the particular batch of plastic. Most of the stuff we are making right now feels pretty grippy to me, but I have noticed a slick feeling a couple of years ago, and from time to time. I really don't know what causes it but it is not the usual. I do know that if your Champ and Star discs feel slick, you can wipe them with Windex wipes and they will feel just fine. That tells me that there is something on the surface. That "something" might be dust or something exuding from the plastic itself. Occasionally, we have color bleeding out that not only gets on hands, but makes the disc feel weird too, so things can bleed out of the plastic.

dave, glad you mentioned the slickness of the previous star plastic runs. thats exactly why i quit throwing star plastic, because i couldnt get a consistent grip from the beginning of a round to the end as the fatigue factor set in. i was able to throw a friends' archon in the new star plastic and it felt much "grippier", or less slick than the older runs of star plastic, so i may go back to buying your star plastic if thats the case.
as far as the grip issue goes, you would probably have to look at several factors affecting that, one i think is from one person to the next, their body chemistry is different. some people have oily skin, which may help with slicker plastic. i have very dry skin, and live in an area where 20% humidity is high, so that slick plastic just doesnt work for me. someone living in the deep south like georgia with a different body chemistry may just love that slick plastic.
i know you cant please everyone with what you offer, but thank you for all the different options that are available from innova. btw, i will have to try that windex thing on my discs to see if it makes a difference.

[pterodactyl]

Originally Posted by Honor Guard

incorrect assumption; did do a search. far too many word variables involved to get a coherent, definitive response.

your 2 cents however, is much appreciated.

Have to agree with you here Captain America. The search feature seems worthless.

[discgolfstaJR]

Originally Posted by Martin_Bohn

dave, glad you mentioned the slickness of the previous star plastic runs. thats exactly why i quit throwing star plastic, because i couldnt get a consistent grip from the beginning of a round to the end as the fatigue factor set in. i was able to throw a friends' archon in the new star plastic and it felt much "grippier", or less slick than the older runs of star plastic, so i may go back to buying your star plastic if thats the case.
as far as the grip issue goes, you would probably have to look at several factors affecting that, one i think is from one person to the next, their body chemistry is different. some people have oily skin, which may help with slicker plastic. i have very dry skin, and live in an area where 20% humidity is high, so that slick plastic just doesnt work for me. someone living in the deep south like georgia with a different body chemistry may just love that slick plastic.
i know you cant please everyone with what you offer, but thank you for all the different options that are available from innova. btw, i will have to try that windex thing on my discs to see if it makes a difference.

I haven't checked which products specifically have been named to be legal for tournament play out of grip enhancers. So i don't know about the legality of applying bees wax but it is a natural product that has been used for skin care so it makes your skin better while providing grip to below freezing conditions.

Finnish competition season started on January 2nd in IIRC about -12 C in the morning going to about -10 C later. I wish i had applied bees wax to non grippy discs. I wasn't the only one who stood upright and had the snow surface up to navel in the worst places :-D

[JenniferB]

Originally Posted by davei

The Classic Aviars and the P&A are both no bead now. The Classic was originally no bead. The P&A was originally no bead too, then was small bead for a number of years. They are both back to original. The difference is the material they are made with. The P&A is made with a softer material and the Classic is made with a firm to very firm material. The numbers reflect the material differences, but don't always match the exact run. Classics make better drivers than the P&A. We no longer offer any small bead Aviars. However, Millenium does.

Thanks for the clarification. If I understand the numbers correctly, the P&A is listed as a bit more stable than the classic aviar, but I would have thought that the more stable putters would make better drivers than the less stable ones. Am i missing something?

[keithjohnson]

Originally Posted by Martin_Bohn

dave, glad you mentioned the slickness of the previous star plastic runs. thats exactly why i quit throwing star plastic, because i couldnt get a consistent grip from the beginning of a round to the end as the fatigue factor set in. i was able to throw a friends' archon in the new star plastic and it felt much "grippier", or less slick than the older runs of star plastic, so i may go back to buying your star plastic if thats the case.
as far as the grip issue goes, you would probably have to look at several factors affecting that, one i think is from one person to the next, their body chemistry is different. some people have oily skin, which may help with slicker plastic. i have very dry skin, and live in an area where 20% humidity is high, so that slick plastic just doesnt work for me. someone living in the deep south like georgia with a different body chemistry may just love that slick plastic.

I resemble that remark!

See you at Halloween in the greatest city in the world?

[Martin_Bohn]

Originally Posted by keithjohnson

I resemble that remark!

See you at Halloween in the greatest city in the world?

see you at worlds first.

[rickm]

When are star apes scheduled for release or cfr dave?

[Honor Guard]

dave,
have you had the chance to read the PM concerning flat top champion rocs? steve wisecup over on FB has said that some have been made - can you update the status?

thanks!

[davei]

Originally Posted by rickm

When are star apes scheduled for release or cfr dave?

They haven't been scheduled yet, but are coming up for a second run. After we do that, we will probably run Star.

[davei]

Originally Posted by Honor Guard

dave,
have you had the chance to read the PM concerning flat top champion rocs? steve wisecup over on FB has said that some have been made - can you update the status?

thanks!

Yes, I did read it. Steve was not supposed to say anything about those. They are scheduled for release at USDGC this year. They are firm and relatively low profile. I don't think they are particularly over stable at low speed, but are nice and stable at high speed.

[keithjohnson]

Originally Posted by Martin_Bohn

see you at worlds first.

Yes you will! - Hopefully we will both play well and end up on the same card and I can show you up close and personal how far Star plastic designed by Dave Dunipace flies.

See how I tied it back into the thread?

Dave - Can you please tell us what disc we will see released at PRO Worlds, or should we just ask Steve?

[keithjohnson]

Dave - question for you in previous post, in case you missed it thinking I was just responding to Martin.

Keith

[davei]

Originally Posted by keithjohnson

Dave - question for you in previous post, in case you missed it thinking I was just responding to Martin.

Keith

It's either some type of Archon or some type of Roc, I believe, but not the same as the USDGC Roc.

[keithjohnson]

Originally Posted by davei

It's either some type of Archon or some type of Roc, I believe, but not the same as the USDGC Roc.

Thanks for the reply Dave,
I vote Archon for pros - Am's could better use the Roc.

[AWSmith]

Originally Posted by davei

The store should open this month. The Vulcan will be made in Star, Champion, and Pro. No plans for R-Pro or Dx as yet.

any schedule for the pro vulcans?

[davei]

Originally Posted by smyith

any schedule for the pro vulcans?

Not yet.

[flynvegas]

Have the R Pro Coupe's been run?

[20460chase]

Hi Dave,

I saw a disc yesterday I have never seen. My buddy Robin showed me a Pebble. He said they werent made because of materials, but with the addition of R=Pro as an additive, could this be a disc we see again for retail? Thank You Sir.

[davei]

Originally Posted by flynvegas

Have the R Pro Coupe's been run?

Yes.

[davei]

Originally Posted by 20460chase

Hi Dave,

I saw a disc yesterday I have never seen. My buddy Robin showed me a Pebble. He said they werent made because of materials, but with the addition of R=Pro as an additive, could this be a disc we see again for retail? Thank You Sir.

The only disc we made that we referred to as a "Pebble" was the Classic Roc in a non weighted DX material. We still make them from time to time but there is not much of a demand. They were originally used for MTA. The Pebble weighed about 95 grams, I believe. Pebbles will be in the Factory Store when we make them, but also can be ordered when in stock. I don't know if we are currently stocking them.