Ask Chuck Kennedy

[26226]

Hi Chuck,

A numbers question for you- Approximately how many people who early renewed prior to January 1st (2011) are still waiting for the 2011 membership packet, rule book, etc.?

curious I am.

[cgkdisc]

I try to remember to ask Breiner in the morning at the Summit meeting.

[cgkdisc]

Chuck, the rules for Alt Shot doubles posted on the PDGA site read a bit vague with respect to who throws a shot when 803.06-Optional Rethrow is invoked:

Seems clear to me. Optional Rethrow is chosen as the next (subsequent) lie which is no different from a team deciding whether the next player should play the next throw from the original lie or where the disc was last inbounds after a player throws OB.

[tkieffer]

Originally Posted by 26226

Hi Chuck,

A numbers question for you- Approximately how many people who early renewed prior to January 1st (2011) are still waiting for the 2011 membership packet, rule book, etc.?

curious I am.

I'd call the office as something is not right. I renewed well into January and got everything within a couple of weeks.

[thediscinmusician]

A quick question...

Scenario - I'm a 903 rated player. Let's say I shoot a 800 rated round in a recent tournament. That's 100 points below my rating, so for the next ratings update that round should get dropped. Now let's say in the next year or so, I don't play to well and my rating falls down to around 890 or so...now that 800 rated round I shot is no longer 100 pts. lower than my rating. Does that round come back into effect and average in with the rest of my rounds or is the theory, "Once dropped always dropped" the case? Also...how do the rounds get re-figured between unofficial and official? Usually there's an increase or decrease between the unofficial and official? I was just wondering how that's figured or why it changes? Thanks for any info you can give.

[cgkdisc]

Don't assume that when you shoot a round more than 100 points below your current rating it will be dropped for the next update. Your next rating may have dropped enough from other rounds that the 800 is not more than 100 points lower. No round is permanently dropped except DNFs. If your rating drops, a previously dropped round may come back into play.

The unofficial ratings process does not use the same calculations as the official process primarily because the unofficial ratings only look at the current round of scores and the official process uses all of the scores shot on the same layout if the weather is similar. It's also unofficial because sometimes the TDs will not set up the course layouts properly online to produce the appropriate ratings even though most TDs get the course layouts done correctly in their Excel tournament report sent to PDGA.

[Heath]

Originally Posted by 26226

Hi Chuck,

A numbers question for you- Approximately how many people who early renewed prior to January 1st (2011) are still waiting for the 2011 membership packet, rule book, etc.?

curious I am.

I'm curious as well. I don't think I ever recieved mine for 2011 either.

[cgkdisc]

No idea. Here's the membership hotline: 1-888-840-7342

[Dana]

"Hi Chuck,
A numbers question for you- Approximately how many people who early renewed prior to January 1st (2011) are still waiting for the 2011 membership packet, rule book, etc.?
curious I am."

Hate to stray too far off topic, but I also renewed before Jan 1 and never recieved the correct membership packet (I got 2010 stuff). I had called and emailed and never heard back. I did finally talk to Brian G. at The Memorial about it. Strange coincidence being my PDGA # is just about the same as yours (mines 26228).
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Chuck- any chance ratings will come early? Because this new ratings update was pushed back, will that push back the next rating update?

Thanks

[cgkdisc]

No earlier than this coming Monday.

[Mashnut]

Hey Chuck, it looks like one of the rounds from April's tournament at Highland Park was put in as a blue tee round. Both rounds were played from the whites by all divisions.

[cgkdisc]

The TD report shows that the Advanced played the Blue tees in R1. If that's not correct, the TD needs to contact asweeton@pdga.com to confirm the change to white tees. Thanks for the heads up.

[Mashnut]

Cool, I'll double check with the td, thanks Chuck.

[Patrick P]

Originally Posted by cgkdisc

Don't assume that when you shoot a round more than 100 points below your current rating it will be dropped for the next update. Your next rating may have dropped enough from other rounds that the 800 is not more than 100 points lower. No round is permanently dropped except DNFs. If your rating drops, a previously dropped round may come back into play.

Chuck can you help to explain this scenario:

My past rating was 928 before the May'11 update (21 rounds used). I had an 829 round that was not included. My rating now went up to 933 (8 rounds used) however the 829 round is now included. I understand PDGA has to obtain 8 rounds to calculate the new rating. The 8 rounds used in the rating update range from Mar20,2010 - Apr16,2011. I played in an event Mar12-14,2010. Shouldn't the 829 rated round still be excluded and then PDGA would go back one more week to the Mar12-14 event to capture the 8+ rounds for the rating?

If the 829 round is dropped, 7 rounds are left, and so all three rounds from the prior event (Mar12-14) would then be used for 10 rated rounds to calculate my new rating. If this were the case, my rating would be 943, 10 points higher than what it is now.

I'm just trying to understand how exactly the ratings are calculated and if the 829 round now included is in error. Thanks for your help.

PDGA #38001

[cgkdisc]

Your 2.5SD is calculated first based on those 8 rounds and it maxed at 100 points this time meaning any round higher than 825 would be included. Since your most recent 25% were good rounds that were double weighted, your rating ended up more than 100 points above the 829 that was included this time.

[Patrick P]

Originally Posted by cgkdisc

Your 2.5SD is calculated first based on those 8 rounds and it maxed at 100 points this time meaning any round higher than 825 would be included. Since your most recent 25% were good rounds that were double weighted, your rating ended up more than 100 points above the 829 that was included this time.

Okay after running the SD calcs I see it now.

[NateB]

Chuck,
Is the standard deviation calculated before or after the weighting of the most recent 25%?

[Patrick P]

Originally Posted by NateB

Chuck,
Is the standard deviation calculated before or after the weighting of the most recent 25%?

It's before.

[NateB]

The standard deviation I've come up with is 33.08. My rating (972) - 2.5 * 33.08 = 889.3 Anything below this should not be included correct? why do I have an 889 included in my rating?

[krupicka]

You have to take into account the number of holes for a given round as that weights the round ratings.

[cgkdisc]

The standard deviation I've come up with is 33.08. My rating (972) - 2.5 * 33.08 = 889.3 Anything below this should not be included correct? why do I have an 889 included in my rating?

It's 2.5 * 33.08 below the straight average of your rounds not your rating which includes your 25% double weighted rounds.

[NateB]

gotcha, thanks chuck.

[jmonny]

Chuck, I was anticipating a slight rating drop this update, but not the 9 point drop it turned out to be. My most recent event averaged slightly above my rating which I thought would make up for the poor rounds. Could you look at my numbers again and maybe break down what caused the drop. Thanks
John Moncrief
pdga 21433

[cgkdisc]

If you have new events, different rounds will be double weighted and some older rounds will have dropped out. If the older rounds were higher ratings or the new set of double weighted rounds averages less than before, it might cause a larger drop than you thought might happen.

[JenniferB]

Dear Chuck,

Please define "base of the hole," especially in regard to:

Any throw from within 10 meters or less, as measured from the rear of the marker disc
to the base of the hole, is considered a putt.

How about in this situation?



This one?



Imagine I had a tape measure with me, or a 30 foot string. would I measure from the pole or the basket or what? Would I follow the rule of verticality or measure a straight line to the playing surface?

I imagine you've encountered all of these questions a zillion times, but my googling skills are not up to the task of finding your answers. So thanks in advance for your patience.

[cgkdisc]

Measure the same way you would if you were measuring a CTP. Measure the route a taut string would follow to the rear of the marker disc if you attached it to the base of the pole. In the case of elevated baskets in the picture, sometimes the string might be suspended in the air for much of the route if the disc is on the ground and not on the base. You would not form fit the string into the contour of the base or steps, for example, or first run the string to the base where it meets the ground and then run it along the ground.

You would think it might be handled more like the rule of verticality where it's the horizontal distance that matters. But tradition and common sense rule in this case where using a taut string is the functional way a distance can be measured after the experience of thousands of CTPs being measured this way.

[bruce_brakel]

Chuck's solution is the best practical solution. The rules have never really answered the question.

[JenniferB]

I'm playing open at a tournament that has a "skins match" tomorrow in lieu of a fourth round, with the top 4 finishing pro men and women being paired up to play mixed doubles in the skins match. I'm playing WAAAAYYYYY up just to fill the card so that the skins match will have the usual 4 mixed doubles teams. Another normally am player is doing the same. The TD has told us that the payout for the skins match is considered part of the payout for the 3 round tournament, and that we should take merchandise in lieu of cash for the skins match (even if we don't cash in open for the 3 "qualifying" rounds) if we want to preserve our amateur status for playing am worlds, majors, and NTs, but that we can still play ams in A, B, and C tier tournaments if our rating allows it, and that we will still be allowed to take payouts in those divisions in the form of merchandise, so long as we pay the full price charged to amateurs playing in those divisions.

My question arises in regards to rule 2.5, B-D as follows:

B. At the option of the TD, Pro or Am players may compete for trophies only in any Amateur division offered by an event that their player rating, age and sex qualifies them for, by paying a reduced entry fee.

C. Players competing under “Trophy Only” are not allowed to accept cash or prizes based upon finish but are allowed to accept trophies.

D. Players paying full price should have priority over players paying the reduced rate. If an event or division is full, a TD may require trophy only players to pay the full price in order to maintain their position in the tournament.

I just want to confirm that pro players playing am at A, B, and C tournaments are permitted to accept merchandise in lieu of cash, and are not required to play for trophy only, unless they pay a reduced entry fee.

Additionally, regarding the petition to be reclassified from pro to am, is it typically granted for players of low rating? What if they make a donation to charity in the amount of cash accepted? Does the donation have to be in the same year? What if they accept the cash and give it to their skins match doubles partner?

[cgkdisc]

Ams may win skins money without losing amateur status. It's considered the same as winning ace pots, CTP or side games cash. See Distribution of Prizes in Competition Manual: 1.10B. The usage of skins (and other similar formats) is permitted at PDGA events but scores are not allowed to determine a player’s overall standing in the event and prizes are not credited towards a player’s winnings.


Pros entering Am divisions receive the same merch prizes as if they were an Am.

Trophy Only can be offered by the TD and means the player pays a lower entry fee but can't win cash or prizes based on their final score. It does not prevent them from winning CTP, side games or skins cash/merch.

[bruce_brakel]

JenniferB, tell us the rest of the story. Did you play the skins? Win any cash? Take the cash?

It looks to me that if you took the cash and the TD reports you as having accepted "pro cash" you can tell the Competition Director, whoever that is these days, that it was post-tournament skins cash, and clearly not going-pro tournament cash.

I would hope that the PDGA would apply the published rule to your situation, but you never know. You just never know.