Ask Chuck Kennedy

[jconnell]

Originally Posted by Zott

Sorry for the long post but it is incredible that after a real injury I am docked anything much less 4 points. Please let me know what you think of this situation as I think it is unfair for me to get punished when others get away.

If you quit during a round, that round isn't counted but any others you completed in the tournament up to that point DO COUNT. The ratings aren't calculated on a tournament by tournament basis, they are based on individual rounds. So there's nothing unfair about it at all. Your rating dropped not because you're being punished for the DNF, your rating dropped because you played poorly in your most recent completed rounds.

As Tourneyplayer points out, it's your play in the round preceding the DNF AND the following tournament that caused the drop in your rating. That has nothing whatsoever to do with your DNF.

[J A B]

Chuck some questions, from the Rule School link you posted on another Thread:

1. I can only take "causal relief"(back 5mm along line of play) from defined "Casual Obstacles"?

I throw my tee shot into a Cedar Tree, I can use optional re-throw (back to tee box) and throw shot #2 from the tee, (Tee, re-tee, penalty= lying 3).

2. IF the TD had declared this group of trees a "casual obstacle" I would have the additional option of pulling back along the line of play up to 5mm, shooting #2 from there, no penalty?

3. Optional re-throw is always a penalty stroke in addition to the number of actual throws?

" OBSTACLES AND RELIEF: 803.05
Significant changes here. A player is not allowed to move any obstacle on the course with the exception of casual obstacles to a stance listed below. A player is allowed to request that other people remove themselves and/or their belongings from the player's stance or line of play. This includes spectators, umbrellas, golf bags, chairs, etc… Casual obstacles as in current rules – casual water, loose leaves or debris, broken branches no longer connected to a tree, motor vehicles, harmful insects or animals, players' equipment, people, or any item or area specifically designated by the director before the round – can be moved if they are in the player’s stance or run-up, even if part of the item like a branch is in front of the lie.
If the casual item can’t be moved, like water or a bee hive, the player may take free relief up to 5m back on the line of play like before. If players require additional relief beyond 5m, they may invoke either the new Optional Relief rule (803.05C) and go back on the line of play as far as they desire with a one-throw penalty. Or, decide to declare the Optional Rethrow discussed previously and return to their original lie and throw again with a one-throw penalty."

Thank you for your consideration,

JAB

[cgkdisc]

JAB: 1. I can only take "causal relief"(back 5m along line of play) from defined "Casual Obstacles"? I throw my tee shot into a Cedar Tree, I can use optional re-throw (back to tee box) and throw shot #2 from the tee, (Tee, re-tee, penalty= lying 3).

CGK: Yes.

JAB: 2. IF the TD had declared this group of trees a "casual obstacle" I would have the additional option of pulling back along the line of play up to 5m, shooting #2 from there, no penalty?

CGK: Yes. And you could go back even farther than 5m on the line of play by adding a 1-throw penalty using the new Optional Relief rule.

JAB: 3. Optional re-throw is always a 1-throw penalty in addition to the number of actual throws?

CGK: Yes.

[ishkatbible]

so casual relief of 5m or less is not a penalty stroke? onle a stroke when the relief is more than 5m?

[cgkdisc]

Correct.

[ishkatbible]

oh wow. didn't realise that before. does the td HAVE TO DECLARE certain obstacles as casual? or just regular stuff like cactus, bees and such?

[cgkdisc]

Look at post 2462 above where it lists the casual obstacles in the rule. Then, TD can specify additional obstacles or areas as casual. Cactus ( and poison ivy) is not automatically casual. Only if TD specifies.

[ishkatbible]

ah thanks... sorry

[Zott]

I played one round and a half, that does not constitute a whole round. I have seen many players not show up on the second day because their rounds were not good and nothing happened to their player rating. Please tell me what makes you a person who actually knows what your typing about. This has been a soar subject for years and I got into it because I actually was injured, not quiting.

[jmonny]

Originally Posted by Zott

I played one round and a half, that does not constitute a whole round.

Your first round was rated, your half round was not. What can't you understand about that? Jconnells post was clear and should make perfect sense, read it again.

[jconnell]

Originally Posted by Zott

I played one round and a half, that does not constitute a whole round. I have seen many players not show up on the second day because their rounds were not good and nothing happened to their player rating. Please tell me what makes you a person who actually knows what your typing about. This has been a soar subject for years and I got into it because I actually was injured, not quiting.

Can you please try to explain how the first bolded part jives with the second bolded part? How can you have played more than a round ("one round and a half"), but not have played a "whole" round?

Let's clarify something here, because it appears to be a matter of semantics: a "round" is a completed circuit of holes in which the total score is tabulated and recorded. If there is a score to report, YOU HAVE PLAYED A WHOLE ROUND. A "tournament" is a collection of rounds for which awards are given for the best cumulative scores.

So in the tournament in question, you played the first round to completion and reported your score. You then commenced the second round, during which you sustained your injury and withdrew from competition. Your second round was incomplete, and thus your tournament was incomplete.

In any tournament, every completed round (a round with a score) is going to be rated. There are never exceptions made for individual players. If there is a reason that an individual round isn't going to be rated, that round will be excluded for everyone who played the round, not just selected individuals amongst the group.

It seems you believe that because you withdrew from the tournament, the whole tournament should be excluded. That's not the case, and it has never been the case. Ratings are done on a round-by-round basis. So any round you have a score for, you get rated on it, even if you do not finish the tournament (for whatever reason).

This really isn't that complex. Either something's getting lost in the semantics here, or you're making a mountain out of a molehill. Though I think pretty much any hand-wringing about a point here or there in one's rating is making a mountain out of a molehill anyway.

[bruceuk]

Hi Chuck

Quick question on membership and ratings, when does your membership need to clear by in order to get a round rated? Is it before the event, before the report is submitted, or before the official ratings update is completed?

I only ask as the various Europe country coordinators have been asked to submit our memberships in groups of 10+ where possible, but I want to make sure we get folks rounds rated where they've paid us up front...

[cgkdisc]

If they have a PDGA number included by their name in event reports, they will get ratings processed for those events regardless whether they are current. They just won't be able to see their player profile on the PDGA site if they aren't current by the time new ratings are posted. If they are new members without a PDGA number entered on TD reports, then they'll have to let the PDGA office know what event(s) they played where they didn't have a number yet. Then, they'll get ratings for those earlier events at the next official ratings update in May.

[bruceuk]

Great, thanks

[Patrick P]

Chuck, let's say on a course all water is casual.

1. If your disc is completely submerged by casual water, do you get a penalty stroke?

2. If your disc lands in casual water, it so happens to be a stream, and your disc carries downstream, where would your lie be? At the point of entry or where the disc comes to rest?

[Patrick P]

Rule pertaining to 803.05B. (Casual Obstacles to a Stance: A player may obtain relief only from the following obstacles that are in the stance or run-up area: casual water, loose leaves or debris, broken branches no longer connected to a tree, motor vehicles, harmful insects or animals, players' equipment, people, or any item or area specifically designated by the director before the round. The player must first attempt to remove the obstacle.)

1. I throw a drive and it lands in the middle of broken branches from a tree. Let's say it's about 5-10ft in length with limbs and leaves. Does 803.05B allow me to remove this obstacle from my lie?

[jconnell]

Originally Posted by Patrick P

Chuck, let's say on a course all water is casual.

1. If your disc is completely submerged by casual water, do you get a penalty stroke?

2. If your disc lands in casual water, it so happens to be a stream, and your disc carries downstream, where would your lie be? At the point of entry or where the disc comes to rest?

1. Read Rule 803.05B

2. Read Rule 803.03F

Originally Posted by Patrick P

Rule pertaining to 803.05B. (Casual Obstacles to a Stance: A player may obtain relief only from the following obstacles that are in the stance or run-up area: casual water, loose leaves or debris, broken branches no longer connected to a tree, motor vehicles, harmful insects or animals, players' equipment, people, or any item or area specifically designated by the director before the round. The player must first attempt to remove the obstacle.)

1. I throw a drive and it lands in the middle of broken branches from a tree. Let's say it's about 5-10ft in length with limbs and leaves. Does 803.05B allow me to remove this obstacle from my lie?

1. Read Rule 803.05B again, the answer is right there.


Are you asking these questions to make some kind of point? And if so, what is it? Or do really not know the answers? There are points in the rule book that leave something for interpretation, but I don't think any of these do. They're pretty clear.

[Patrick P]

Originally Posted by jconnell

Are you asking these questions to make some kind of point? And if so, what is it? Or do really not know the answers? There are points in the rule book that leave something for interpretation, but I don't think any of these do. They're pretty clear.

I'm asking these questions for clarification. I think I have a good understanding of the rules, however I just finished a round where these three scenarios came into question on our card.

[jconnell]

Originally Posted by Patrick P

I'm asking these questions for clarification. I think I have a good understanding of the rules, however I just finished a round where these three scenarios came into question on our card.

Apologies if I came off a little snarky, but I'm surprised that the questions you posed couldn't be answered simply by looking at the rule book because there really isn't a grey area for any of them.

Casual water is casual water. There's never a penalty involved simply for landing in casual water. The player can either throw from where the disc lies in the water or take up to 5 meters of free line-of-play relief behind the original lie. Unless the player wants or needs to take more than 5m of relief, in which case he/she can utilize the optional relief (803.05C) and take a lie anywhere on the line of play behind the original lie with a one-throw penalty.

803.03F says a "disc thrown in water shall be deemed to be at rest once it is floating or is moving only by the action of the water or the wind on the water." So the lie in your scenario is approximately where it entered the stream and began floating on the current of the water rather than of its own momentum.

A broken branch no longer attached to a tree is on the list of designated casual obstacles in rule 803.05B. If a disc lands under or near such a branch, then the branch can be removed if it impedes the player's stance or run-up. From your description, it probably would impede a stance, thus it can be removed.

[Patrick P]

Originally Posted by jconnell

Apologies if I came off a little snarky, but I'm surprised that the questions you posed couldn't be answered simply by looking at the rule book because there really isn't a grey area for any of them.

Casual water is casual water. There's never a penalty involved simply for landing in casual water. The player can either throw from where the disc lies in the water or take up to 5 meters of free line-of-play relief behind the original lie. Unless the player wants or needs to take more than 5m of relief, in which case he/she can utilize the optional relief (803.05C) and take a lie anywhere on the line of play behind the original lie with a one-throw penalty.

803.03F says a "disc thrown in water shall be deemed to be at rest once it is floating or is moving only by the action of the water or the wind on the water." So the lie in your scenario is approximately where it entered the stream and began floating on the current of the water rather than of its own momentum.

A broken branch no longer attached to a tree is on the list of designated casual obstacles in rule 803.05B. If a disc lands under or near such a branch, then the branch can be removed if it impedes the player's stance or run-up. From your description, it probably would impede a stance, thus it can be removed.

No worries, it just came up into discussion during our round. We called the rulings as you mention. Sometimes other players on the card have different intrepretations of the rulings or are not up-to-date on the 2011 rules. Thanks for clarifying.

[cgkdisc]

There are two elements that may not be clear just by reading the rulebook regarding the questions posed. If the group feels the player's disc landed in casual water but it could not be found, you still treat it as if the disc was in casual water, not lost. The group makes a judgment on approximately where the disc "should be" in the casual water and player goes back up to 5m of free relief from that location to the shore.

The third item regarding broken branches came up today. One significant change from last year to this year is dealing with brush piles. Last year, it was difficult to take relief in a brush pile because you could not move any branches that projected in front of your lie, even if they were in your stance. In 2011, since the dead branches are defined as casual objects, you are now allowed to move them even if some of them project in front of your lie. But more importantly, you can take casual relief back off the brush pile with no penalty if it's not possible to move the brush (without a major effort).

[keithjohnson]

Quick question -

Tee off, don't like my lie - take optional rethrow, it goes in the basket - what is score?

Optional rethrow rule says one thing, optional rethrow description in the clarification section at the back of the rule book states something that makes it seem like there is no double jeopardy, meaning possibly no stroke added.

This clarification needs to be clarified as 7 officials looked at it yesterday and said it definately seems ambiguous even though the actual rule seems clear.

A liitle help please when you have the time.

Thanks in advance,
Keith

[cgkdisc]

The score is 3. The Optional Rethrow always includes a 1-throw penalty. Double jeopardy means you don't get two 1-throw penalties in situations like landing above 2m when that's in effect and you decide to take an Optional Rethrow rather than mark below the tree. Now it's only a 1-throw penalty.

Under the old Unplayable Lie rule, you could not call the Unplayable Lie until you had a lie to call unplayable. So, you first had to take the 2m penalty to bring the disc to the ground to create a lie. Then, take another penalty for Unplayable Lie if you didn't like your spot under the giant pine tree with low limbs. That double jeopardy penalty doesn't exist with Optional Rethrow because you can call it while the disc is still in the tree above 2m. You avoid the 2m penalty but still get the Optional Rethrow penalty instead. Hopefully this makes sense?

[Patrick P]

After I re-read Chuck's response with my glasses on, it's clear now. Thanks for the clarification.

[keithjohnson]

Originally Posted by cgkdisc

The score is 3. The Optional Rethrow always includes a 1-throw penalty. Double jeopardy means you don't get two 1-throw penalties in situations like landing above 2m when that's in effect and you decide to take an Optional Rethrow rather than mark below the tree. Now it's only a 1-throw penalty.

Under the old Unplayable Lie rule, you could not call the Unplayable Lie until you had a lie to call unplayable. So, you first had to take the 2m penalty to bring the disc to the ground to create a lie. Then, take another penalty for Unplayable Lie if you didn't like your spot under the giant pine tree with low limbs. That double jeopardy penalty doesn't exist with Optional Rethrow because you can call it while the disc is still in the tree above 2m. You avoid the 2m penalty but still get the Optional Rethrow penalty instead. Hopefully this makes sense?

That's the conclusion we all eventually came to - just seemed to be a tad unclear in definition area after being pretty clear in rule area.

thanks!

[cgkdisc]

Oh, you just threw me for a loop. I understand last year if you have a branch that was in your stance but also in front of your lie, you could not move it. I thought the 2011 rules are saying you now can move it. But your saying you can't move it, however you treat it as a casual obstable and can move back up to 5 meters. I'm confused. It's been demonstrated at several TD meetings that you can move say a twig in your stance that extends forward of your lie. Please clarify.

You can move dead branches in your stance that are partly in front of your lie. I'm just saying if it's a big brush pile of dead branches, it's probably impractical to be removing all of that brush all the way down to the playing surface. So, you're allowed to take relief back off the brush pile on the line of play using the casual relief rule that allows you to move back if it's impractical to move the casual obstacles. (Second half of 803.05B)

[bruce_brakel]

Anyone in any of these new rules situations should be reminded that if the group cannot reach Chuck's conclusion as to how the rules ought to apply, then you ought to take a provisional. Play it both ways. Record both scores. Ask the TD afterwards.

I don't dispute any of Chuck's conclusions regarding the intent of the drafters of the rules, but there is no guarantee that any TD, myself included, would reach the same result, if all they had to guide them was the rulebook itself.

[cgkdisc]

But you realize that all TDs have "Chuck's Conclusions" as required reading in the sanctioning doc so they would end up with the same answers? Seriously, if you think someone would come to a different conclusion from reading the rule, then I'll make sure to get it to the RC for the Q&As which will be official at some point.

[keithjohnson]

Ok - Today's Question:

Casual relief rule now allows (in parenthesis) td's to "allow" more relief -
Is this for distance after 5 meters for free, or allowing them to make other things/objects casual as has been posited on this thread to cover poison ivy, cactus and other items not listed.

3 officials were unclear so we just let it be - TD wanted to allow any distance from casual water stream instead of just 5 meters based on rule, but my point is that you could grant relief back to the tee pad (or other area) for free which seems to be against spirit of the game.

How do you (point) and Mr. Brakel (counterpoint) see this rule reading?

[bruce_brakel]

So long as the Q&As are not in the rule book, they really don't help that much. My brother might bring the Q&As to a tournament, but I never have.

Nonetheless,

The rule that a TD cannot limit the players to only using the drop zone for o.b. is not in rule book. Unfortunately, the rule book still says that the TD can limit the players' options.

The rule that you do not take the 2-meter penalty if you also take an optional rethrow is not in the rule book. It is hinted at in the commentary after the rules, but even there it is not explicit.

The rule that you do or do not take the two meter penalty if you take line-of-play relief is not in the rule book, and given the situation with the 2-meter penalty and the optional rethrow, I would not know which way to guess at the answer.

I'm not being argumentative. I'm just trying to figure out what the new rules are, and it is not obvious as to those three rules just from reading the rule book.