Where are we playin today ?

[twoputtok]

I agree Hatton. My proposal was to not announce anything to the non-mems. As a club we don't have to, they are non-mems, period. Also, I didn't propose a trial period for the very reasons you just mentioned. I am very appreciative of the admins for allowing me to make the proposal and for voting on it.

And if you have ideas for the club, then please propose them.

My proposal was not to discourage new players from coming out. It was designed to collect from those that take from the club on a regular basis. Its not hard to see, just go back and look at the riverside thread or the chandler thread. Almost always the same people. These are not new players that are trying us out. These are players that have been coming out for a while now. This doesn't affect a newbie who doesn't cash. If I were them, I wouldn't join either, if I didn't want the swag pack. But now, there is some real incentive to join. If it becomes permanent, you get a swag pack and more money.

[sschumacher]

Originally Posted by pdorries

whether you realize it or not, the professional growth of the sport is a necessity for large scale amateur growth in the long run. you are only hurting the eventual growth of the sport with your narrow minded Am only mindset.

I don't necessarly think so Paul. I was first exposed to soccer in grade school and it wasn't because some Pro showed up at school and did an exhibition. "Mad Pacman Soccer" rules and is what it was all about and now they have college scholarships for it.

You didn't see too much of it on TV back then and I doubt you'll ever see professional DG on TV only because it can't compete from a mass "viewer" point of view like some of the other major sports out there.

[Chris Hatton]

Originally Posted by sschumacher

You didn't see too much of it on TV back then and I doubt you'll ever see professional DG on TV only because it can't compete from a mass "viewer" point of view like some of the other major sports out there.

But there is a large population of people that WOULD watch pro DG on tv, pro DG merely has the same problem the TDSA does. It cannot convince 80% of its players/fans to join the organization, showing statistics on paper to those with money to back it.

[twoputtok]

Dang, Hatton, you're smarter than the usual wife beaters we get around here.

Just don't give him your email or phone number.

[pdorries]

Originally Posted by sschumacher

You didn't see too much of it on TV back then and I doubt you'll ever see professional DG on TV only because it can't compete from a mass "viewer" point of view like some of the other major sports out there.

Most people never thought they would see poker on TV either, and look at how big it is now.

I'm not comparing disc golf to poker, it can appeal to way more people, but I am saying that every sport goes through a developemental stage. I knew someone who just 15 years ago was playing poker games in garages and back bedrooms because it was still really underground.

Professional tennis used to be the same way, a long time ago before there was money in it, players would stay at people's houses etc. when travelling around playing tournaments.

I'm just saying neglecting the pro, and making them pay more, and having AM only events all the time isn't the strongest way to grow our sport.

If you don't have a pro division, you just have a bunch of people bagging down and taking plastic from your precious ams.

Drop you're anti-pro b***sh** statements and think of better ways to grow the sport and the club.

[twoputtok]

Paul, you would have to agrree that our current pro structure that the PDGA offers is flawed. I don't agree with the AM only all the time. It has a place though.

We do need to find a way to raise pro purses to more than just our entry fees plus what ever the TD can rob from the ams. It will require sponsors, cash sponsors.

You are correct with your statemnt that if the Pros grow, so will the ams. Truth be know, they would probably grow faster if the pro divisions were more attractive.

[pdorries]

Originally Posted by twoputtok

Paul, you would have to agrree that our current pro structure that the PDGA offers is flawed. I don't agree with the AM only all the time. It has a place though.

We do need to find a way to raise pro purses to more than just our entry fees plus what ever the TD can rob from the ams. It will require sponsors, cash sponsors.

You are correct with your statemnt that if the Pros grow, so will the ams. Truth be know, they would probably grow faster if the pro divisions were more attractive.

Couldn't agree with your statements more. Its all about the overall growth of the sport, without neglecting pros OR ams... Am only events are GREAT and certainly have their place... I'm not just sitting here complaining either, there are definitely plans in the works to get more cash sponsors for our local growth.

I just can't stand it that he thinks you don't need to cater to pros and give them certain perks, but you do, especially the ones trying to make a living off the sport.

[arhunt]

Here are some of my thoughts on this issue;

What is the purpose of TDSA? Can someone point me in the direction of a mission statement?

I would guess that TDSA desires to grow the sport of Frisbee, mainly disc golf. That growth is achieved through running events, developing and maintaining courses, etc....

Our desire as a club is to get people interested and excited about Frisbees. Not to make money. Money is a very useful resource. Is TDSA having an issue with finances? Is that why we are trying to increase our membership?

What does a larger membership mean for TDSA? More influence in the community? More leverage with the PDGA? The ability to attract sponsors for the various events we promote?

What makes a non-member a bad thing? I think that non-members who participate in minis are awesome! Everybody who plays in a mini is giving money to TDSA! We should be encouraging people to participate in minis. Not giving them a reason to not play!

As a club, we would be much better off talking to people individually and explaining why becoming a member is a good idea. Tell them how TDSA has installed and maintained courses throughout the years. Invite them to one of the great events that TDSA puts on. Explain to them that becoming a member not only supports TDSA, but allows them to become involved in the process!

What is being proposed is equivalent to telling people that if they are not a member, we don't want them to participate! That's absolutely ridiculous!

I think the modified payout table is a horrible idea. I will not play any minis for the month of September.

Just some ramblings...

[sschumacher]

Yeah....what ^^^^ said.

I knew I wasn't all alone out here.

[Chris Hatton]

Its not that people are really being told they are not welcome unless they are a member, its more saying "hey, you enjoy the same benefits as a member without paying your bill like members do" I have no idea what the TDSA does with all the money it makes, but most clubs recycle that back into maintaining courses, building courses, and running tournaments. So why should I, as a paying member, support these courses for all players new and old to enjoy disc golf, when theres 10 dudes out there for every 1 member that is playing, destroying, trashing, wearing and tearing golf courses down.

[sschumacher]

Hey Hatton. According to the TDSA website you are not current. What's up with that???

[Chris Hatton]

Mr Treat, being very busy of late with tournaments and campaining all over the world to become state coordinator, has been a slack arse and hasnt added me yet, or given me my free disc! :P haha

[Chris Hatton]

very good attempt to undermine my thoughts though sir, sadly however you ended with the usual result of failure better luck next time!

[sschumacher]

Originally Posted by Chris Hatton

Mr Treat, being very busy of late with tournaments and campaining all over the world to become state coordinator, has been a slack arse and hasnt added me yet, or given me my free disc! :P haha

It doesn't matter. The list is "THE LIST" and if it doesn't show you current when the time comes you will receive "Special Treatment" under the new Obama-Wise rules.

Neither Opie or Mike Treat are showing to be current either though I believe they have paid and got their swag. I guess they just haven't notified the club webmaster yet.

[pdorries]

It seems to me everyone has the same goal here... to grow disc golf (with our main focus being locally), to maintain the courses we all enjoy, and to have fun.

Can we agree on that point? Is that not the goal of all this? To be honest, I feel like people should have the choice to become a member based off of their own desire to be a part of our community. I think benefits for members are a great idea, but penalizing non-members is not the correct route to take. Looking at each non-member as value taken away from the club is not fundamentally sound with the goals of growing the sport and making it attractive to new players.

What if it was someone's first mini last night at riverside and they are greeted with "by the way, all non-members are going to receive less money for cashing than members will." That isn't going to entice me to be a member of something I am trying out for the first time, it is may make me frustrated and disappointed if I make it into the cash and don't even have enough to buy a disc!

Wise, I think a lot of your ideas are good, and you obviously care a lot about growing the sport (your dedication to Centennial is very, VERY respectable), but I can't side with you on this non-member tax, if you will.

This is one area of "funding" that should be overlooked, and different ideas of fundraising be brought to the table.

[Big Easy]

It boils down to the following.

Do you only offer swag to be a member ???
And/Or in addition do you lessen the direct benefit of being a non-member.

On the lesser benefit...
You should only do the lesser benefit without making an announcement.
The word will eventually get out.

Also the people who do not choose to become members...
ARE RECEIVING A BENEFIT !!!!!!!!!

If 100% of these funds are diverted to course maintenance and improvement
Those non members are enjoying the benefit of a course in good condition,
as well as participating in the minis.

Some argument can be made for a lesser amount diverted to course improvement
as it may seem inflated compared to membership seclusion from this lesser benefit.

[twoputtok]

What is the purpose of TDSA? Can someone point me in the direction of a mission statement? You would have to ask Wayne, I'm not sure if they have a written mission statement.

Our desire as a club is to get people interested and excited about Frisbees. Not to make money. Money is a very useful resource. Is TDSA having an issue with finances? Is that why we are trying to increase our membership? While I'm not an Admin, I can assure you the club is not having financial difficulties. However, in the near future the club will require a large infusion of captial in order to host a major event. The city will not be able to assist with this. The responsibilty of the courses has always been on the shoulders of the club. This doesn't come cheap. If the club doesn't make money, then you don't have events to play or new courses going in. These things don't happen with just peace, love and tye-dye.

What does a larger membership mean for TDSA? More influence in the community? More leverage with the PDGA? The ability to attract sponsors for the various events we promote? Yes to all three. In addition the club will need a larger active membership to pull offf a major also.

What makes a non-member a bad thing? I think that non-members who participate in minis are awesome! Everybody who plays in a mini is giving money to TDSA! We should be encouraging people to participate in minis. Not giving them a reason to not play! Being a non-mem is not a bad thing. We were all non-mems at one time, we were all newbie's at one time. Yes, everyone that playes is giving money but members are giving more and getting less than those of you that continually play minis but don't join.
How is it not giving a new member a reson not to play? Did is cost the new player more to play? No. It only affects those non-mems that play a lot of minis, who cash regularly without being a member.

As a club, we would be much better off talking to people individually and explaining why becoming a member is a good idea. Tell them how TDSA has installed and maintained courses throughout the years. Invite them to one of the great events that TDSA puts on. Explain to them that becoming a member not only supports TDSA, but allows them to become involved in the process! I agree and I can say I have see just about every TD in town use this approach on new players. It hasn't worked.

What is being proposed is equivalent to telling people that if they are not a member, we don't want them to participate! That's absolutely ridiculous!
Then why are you a proud member of the PDGA at 5 times the ost of a TDSA membership? They charge ALL non-mems to play their events an extra fee over the entry. We are only talking about charging a fee to those that cash. Adam, do you think you can go out to Meadow Brook every day and play without a membership? Can you go to All American to work out day after day without some type of membership? I'd have to answer no to both of those questions. So why is it wrong of the club to allow ALL players to enter at the same price, member or not but to charge a small fee against those non-members that continually cash at most club events but refuse to be a memebr, such as yourself.

I think the modified payout table is a horrible idea. I will not play any minis for the month of September.
I'm sure you do feel that way, since you are what we were trying to address.
Adam, would you not agree that your disc golf career, along with Paul's and josh's would not be where they are without the club's support? let me clarify that....had it not been for the club and all of the courses and events that they have made available to you to play, would you now the pro you are and a proud member of the PDGA?
Why is it that you feel you are entitled to full membership benefits without the price of a membership? Why is it you feel you are above or against a membership with the club that has helped you grow as a player but gladly pay your money to the PDGA?

Plain and simple the club needs an endowment type of funding to insure that they can host the major that you and other players have asked for.
Had it not been for the club that you choose not to be a member of you would have :
MClure, Haikey, Hunter, Dovillio with Dirt pads, NO Hawks, No Lodge, NO Moose Run, No Centennial.........and thats about it.......get the point.

Who do you think made that happen? Members.

What have you done for disc golf lately Adam? Or ever?

[twoputtok]

Originally Posted by pdorries

It seems to me everyone has the same goal here... to grow disc golf (with our main focus being locally), to maintain the courses we all enjoy, and to have fun.

Can we agree on that point? Is that not the goal of all this? To be honest, I feel like people should have the choice to become a member based off of their own desire to be a part of our community. I think benefits for members are a great idea, but penalizing non-members is not the correct route to take. Looking at each non-member as value taken away from the club is not fundamentally sound with the goals of growing the sport and making it attractive to new players.

What if it was someone's first mini last night at riverside and they are greeted with "by the way, all non-members are going to receive less money for cashing than members will." That isn't going to entice me to be a member of something I am trying out for the first time, it is may make me frustrated and disappointed if I make it into the cash and don't even have enough to buy a disc! Paul, we are not talking about the guy that comes out for his first mini, or his second or third. It will not cost the new player anymore to play than it does now. We are talking about the same 20 players that play 4 minis a week ansh 90% of the time and are allowed to do this will all the same benefits of being a member. How is that right?

Wise, I think a lot of your ideas are good, and you obviously care a lot about growing the sport (your dedication to Centennial is very, VERY respectable), but I can't side with you on this non-member tax, if you will.

This is one area of "funding" that should be overlooked, and different ideas of fundraising be brought to the table.

Please come up with some ideas on how you might raise 15K over the next 4 years, in addition to what the club already supports financially. The club may shoot this down in 30 days. It's yet to be detrmined. But I can assure you if the club does not establish some type of funding, ohter than memberships, you not have the tournaments you want in your back yard or should I say the quality of torunaments. You can disagree with my idea. But answer me this. If you all feel all non-mems should have all of the same advantages at events and everything that the club does, then why bother having memberships at all, why bother having a club?

Peace, love and tye-dye, right?

Put in conrecte with that, buy a course with that, host events on just that. Good luck with that.

Everyone, especially Adam is quick to critizie but offers no solution.
Why would the non-mems, like Adam NOT want it to change. They're not a member now, haven't been and don't plan on being. But they will sure be the first in line to accept what ever the club wants to provide them.

[pdorries]

Wise, are you telling me all those accomplishments and AWESOME things the club has done for the Tulsa disc golf community have actually happened??

How on earth did you accomplish all those things without charging non members 50% or 30% of whatever percent of their payout??

There are other ways to make money than taking from payout. Why is that such an important issue?

The club has a great list of achievements under its belt, and they seem to have been able to do all of this without the tax to non-members.

Why all the effort and energy to charge non-members now? Is the club getting short on funding? Perhaps other methods of fundraising can be drawn up instead of this. Why is this way of making money so important? Is there not any other alternative?

[twoputtok]

Originally Posted by Big Easy

It boils down to the following.

Do you only offer swag to be a member ???
And/Or in addition do you lessen the direct benefit of being a non-member.

On the lesser benefit...
You should only do the lesser benefit without making an announcement.
The word will eventually get out.

Also the people who do not choose to become members...
ARE RECEIVING A BENEFIT !!!!!!!!!

If 100% of these funds are diverted to course maintenance and improvement
Those non members are enjoying the benefit of a course in good condition,
as well as participating in the minis.

Some argument can be made for a lesser amount diverted to course improvement
as it may seem inflated compared to membership seclusion from this lesser benefit.

Agreed

[pdorries]

Originally Posted by twoputtok

[COLOR=red]Please come up with some ideas on how you might raise 15K over the next 4 years, in addition to what the club already supports financially.

Don't patronize me like you are this all knowing disc golf guru of tulsa. Yes, you have been around longer than me, YES you have done WAY more for this community than I have, but why use the same condescending argument that I bring nothing to the table.

If you want to personally attack me, I have ammo. I've only been on the scene for a couple years now, and it has taken some time to see what a good member does for the club. I have run for an admin spot because I think I could help with good ideas, unfortunately I was not voted in. Second, I have chosen an alternate route to helping out our community through the Oklahoma Disc Golf Foundation, it is just in the start up and it will be a great addition to the local disc golf scene. I have plenty of ideas and plans that are going to be utlilized through the foundation.

I'm simply saying taxing payout for non members isn't smart in my opinion.

If you are referring to the same 40 or 50 people that cash and aren't members, then why not personally address them and convince them why they should be a member, versus just squeezing their wallet, so to speak, by taking away from what they have won.

[pdorries]

not that I won't entertain more discussion on the issue, I think I've said my peace and I gotta get some stuff done today. I will be checking responses though!

[twoputtok]

Wise, are you telling me all those accomplishments and AWESOME things the club has done for the Tulsa disc golf community have actually happened?? Yes, they have.

How on earth did you accomplish all those things without charging non members 50% or 30% of whatever percent of their payout??
We are talking 20% of their payout.

We were fortunate enough that Joe Rotan established the true growth progam with Innova and they allowed us to have a special exclusive disc for 6 mothns of sales. This allowed us to generate over 30K that was ALL spent on courses and equipment that now everyone enjoys. This with the city pulling and additional 15K from the 3rd penny sales tax to pay for the baskets, tee signs and some of the concrete at Mohawk.

There are other ways to make money than taking from payout. Why is that such an important issue? Please tell us the magical ways to make money over what we do now. It's important because our courses are in horrible shape. Agree? If, we as a club plan on hosting a major, then all of the courses need to be brought up to championship caliber. This will cost money, lots of it. I don't see any donors stepping up and standing in line for this. Have you guys found any tax free cash donations under your new ODGF?

The club has a great list of achievements under its belt, and they seem to have been able to do all of this without the tax to non-members.
The club got lucky for worlds. And we accomplished the installation of Mohawk and all the others in less than one year. Can we do that again? Can we get that lucky to have that type of funding arrangement again?
It would be an embarressment to all of us if we get accepted for a major and we are not ready. Remember the NT at Pawhuska?

Why all the effort and energy to charge non-members now? Is the club getting short on funding? Perhaps other methods of fundraising can be drawn up instead of this. Why is this way of making money so important? Is there not any other alternative?
I came up with this after doing some research for past minis. As it turns out over 90% of all payouts are going to non-mems. In the past I proposed all non-mems be charged an extra dollar for each event. The club didn't like the negative of that. So with this, we only charge the ones that cash. This way it does not discourage a new player from coming out to play. Paul, a lot of clubs charge non-mems an extra fee of $1 or $2, the PDGA does. On top of that, a lot of clubs will not let a non-mem hit an Ace pot. PERIOD. The club is not short on funding for their normal activies and events. But have you seen any money going into courses? No, because its not there. This is something that will allow the club to generate funds over the next 3-5 years, so that when the event comes, we as a club are ready.


As I said, if anyone has other funding ideas, please give them. I just felt that this way increases the benefit and value of being a member, while at the same time getting those that use our events to help pay for upkeep of the courses they play on at all times. As Dale said in an above post they still benefit.

[twoputtok]

Originally Posted by pdorries

Don't patronize me like you are this all knowing disc golf guru of tulsa. Yes, you have been around longer than me, YES you have done WAY more for this community than I have, but why use the same condescending argument that I bring nothing to the table.
I wasn't Trying to patronize you. I'm not saying you bring nothing. This converstion is bringing something. Possibly a solution, Thats what I was asking for.

If you want to personally attack me, I have ammo. I've only been on the scene for a couple years now, and it has taken some time to see what a good member does for the club. I have run for an admin spot because I think I could help with good ideas, unfortunately I was not voted in. Second, I have chosen an alternate route to helping out our community through the Oklahoma Disc Golf Foundation, it is just in the start up and it will be a great addition to the local disc golf scene. I have plenty of ideas and plans that are going to be utlilized through the foundation.
I wasn't knocking you or the OFDG. One thing you may not know, is, in the proposal I made to the club, ALL of the money raised was to be held by the ODGF and disbursed through them. Win win for both orgs. I was saying that I'm sure you can agree, donors are not lining up to give money. I'm sure you will also agree, things don't get done without it.

I'm simply saying taxing payout for non members isn't smart in my opinion.
Of which you are entitled to.

If you are referring to the same 40 or 50 people that cash and aren't members, then why not personally address them and convince them why they should be a member, versus just squeezing their wallet, so to speak, by taking away from what they have won.

Why don't you ask one of your best friends that question. These people have been around for a while. They have seen what the club does, they have seen what the club provides but they choose not to support it. They play in the minis to cash. I find it hard to believe they just show up so the club could make $1 off of their entry, their way of showing support.
Paul, all of the TDS have been pushing memberships and they are up form years past. And since I'm entitled to my opinon, I feel its not enough.

[sschumacher]

Memberships are up because now there is actually a swag pack included where there wasn't one before.

Wise, you need to get off your HIGH horse. You just had a good event at your course and did you give current TDSA members a better deal than non-members? Why not? Some of the same non-members that cashed up there cash routinely down here.

You remind me all the time how the TDSA contributes nothing but free advertisement to your course and that is exactly the way you wanted it so you can have total control up there.

Don’t throw Moose Run into that because it was a combination of the TDSA, private donors, and camping fees paid by both members and non-members. And while it was mostly members that stuck around all day watching t-pads there were also a lot of non-members out there helping a various times as well.

If you don’t like the $20 swag bag then don’t renew your membership. You already went ½ a year as a non-member before I reminded you of it.

And it’s funny you’re not mentioning the other trial deal going on next month where any non-member that hits an ace over $50 will only get half of the cash and a calendar year membership with the rest going back into the TDSA.

That’s right. I said it. Go ahead and put that on your “Kick Furdog Out of the TDSA” campaign.

And why are we thinking about an Am Worlds when we haven’t even pumped up the Am Jam yet?

I want people to become members too but this “elitism tax” you are trying to create is not the way to go at this time.

It’s like your feelings are hurt because 8 out of 10 players are non-members and they are kicking members butts when it comes to cashing.

[pdorries]

Also, for the record. I applaud Wise for crafting this idea and presenting it to the tdsa board. And I applaud the TDSA for trying it. Even though I am opposed to the idea, I think it is great that the effort was made on both ends.

I think you came up with a crafty fund raising idea at your centennial event with the wager ring. I'm not saying this is a reliable way for future funding, I'm simply saying little ideas like this are other ways of generating funds.

If I can come up with some additional ideas for the TDSA, I will. I didn't realize funding was an issue, I know a certian percentage of entry and CTP money already goes to the club and thought it was doing fine. I am sure the financial information of the club is not readily available to members and since I am not an admin, I do not know the details of the clubs needs for funding. I'd LOVE to see the plan for what this funding will be used for (big tourney? championship caliber improvements to courses?) before I get on board to help bring ideas to the table. From a general member's perspective, I see the club doing fine as is.

[twoputtok]

FurDog, get a clue and get off the I'm against anything wise says. We are talking regular minis and thats all. Which you might know that if you ever decided to show up for an admin meeting as we elected you to do.

Moose run - would you have concrete if not for the TDSA? Did they pay for 100% of the concrete?
nuff said.

I'm not ashamed to admit that I felt NO repsonsibility to annouce it to NON-Members.
Based on that then should the club make all of its decisions public to all?

Did I ever say AM worlds? No, I said a major, is that not what they want the AM jam to be? That could be Worlds, NT, Pro, Am.....but a major with lots and lots of players.

Its not being elitist, its a user fee. Not ashamed of it.

As I said earlier, get a clue, that last statement has nothing to do with it.

Tell you what, why don't you get off your trash anything and everything wise says or does, quit trashing admins right and left for their vote on something that you chose not to participate in and offer something constructive to the conversation.


Maybe if you had shown up for the meeting on the proposal and maybe if you had shown up for the next month's meeting to vote on the proposal you might, just might understand it.
Instead you choose to go around your own admins and announce something your way when they had already voted to do that in a timely manner.
I don't have to start a campaign to have you removed. You're doing a great job all by yourself.

[sschumacher]

Here's one Paul.

Have the ODGF sell a tax deductable "punch card" good for 20 choice mullies at any TDSA mini. One or two mully only use per event. $20 for non-TDSA members. $10 for members.

[twoputtok]

Originally Posted by pdorries

Also, for the record. I applaud Wise for crafting this idea and presenting it to the tdsa board. And I applaud the TDSA for trying it. Even though I am opposed to the idea, I think it is great that the effort was made on both ends.

I think you came up with a crafty fund raising idea at your centennial event with the wager ring. I'm not saying this is a reliable way for future funding, I'm simply saying little ideas like this are other ways of generating funds.

If I can come up with some additional ideas for the TDSA, I will. I didn't realize funding was an issue, I know a certian percentage of entry and CTP money already goes to the club and thought it was doing fine. I am sure the financial information of the club is not readily available to members and since I am not an admin, I do not know the details of the clubs needs for funding. I'd LOVE to see the plan for what this funding will be used for (big tourney? championship caliber improvements to courses?) before I get on board to help bring ideas to the table. From a general member's perspective, I see the club doing fine as is.

The proposal was that ALL funds genrated form this would go 100% to course improvement. I suggested that none of it be placed in the general fund. I also suggested the they rank the courses from top to bottom of need, with McClure being on top and Balck on the bottom. The reason for black on the bottom is so that this time when we donate all of this money and work to their parks system we document it. Once we have a track record of doing this, then use that to get the city to help with Mohawk. That course will require heavy equipment and man power. The club does not have that. When the ice storm hit and damnaged that course, the city was paid a hefty sum for trees to be removed from in there. Have you seen the blue dots and orange dots on the base of the trees? Of which would not have been accessable had it not been for the installtion of the course. Before the course, no one had been in there for 25 years. They kept the money but did no work. That fact with what we have done for them, should help out bid to get their assistance with tht course. There trucks and trucks of wood that need to be cleared and hauled out. All of the ditches, water hazrads, all of it.

That was my plan. I was looking for a long term funding arrangement. We will have new players coming in all the time and players going out of the game all the time. new ones coming in in 6 months will never know the difference. The ones that are still around and non-mems will have either accepted it or joined From Adam's post it may be the last time we see him at a mini.

[Southpaw527]

The club is doing fine on money but it needs more for the level of tournaments we want here.

THAT MEANS PRO AND AM EVENTS FURRDOG!

Also one of the things my Dad is bringing as new "SC" is a blog that will have all financial info on the TDSA along with other info that he believes should be public info.