Ask Dave Dunipace About Innova Discs

[davei]

Originally Posted by John Keith

whats the best Katana....Are people jammin with the Pro, or Champ more. I like the idea of the Champ plastic cause it should hold its flight characteristics longer. (more durable). Is the champ still close to the under-stability as the Pro? I plan on picking up 1 or 2 this weekend.

Too early to tell which will be more popular. The Pro is way ahead but it is the only one that has been released. The Star is a little more stable than the Pro and the Champion is a little more stable than the Star.

[LastBoyScout]

For me personally, the Champ Katana flies like a longer Wraith, with the Star Katana flying like a longer slightly beat Wraith.

The Pro Katana straight out bombs with some stiff hyzer, or makes a great long distance turnover roller.

Several locals are buying up the Star and Champ Katanas to use in windy situations where their Pro Katanas would not suffice.

[aarikc17]

Hey Dave,

You know how the coyote and mako only differ by the rancho top and san marino top.

Have you thought about making a mid with the same bottom but with an ontario top?

[davei]

Originally Posted by aarikc17

Hey Dave,

You know how the coyote and mako only differ by the rancho top and san marino top.

Have you thought about making a mid with the same bottom but with an ontario top?

The Mako and Coyote have different tops and bottoms. They only share the bevel.

The Ontario top is the same as the San Marino top.

[gippy]

I can throw my Champ Katana into a mild head wind and it still finishes on a hyzer. I have seen this from others I play with as well. The Pro just beats up to quick for my liking, but it bombs. Haven't thrown a Star but seen reall long flexing shots out of others hands. My Champ needs to hit a few more trees or some hard pack ground to get it beat. I get it out and it wants to break out to the right but it just dosen't yet. May be my arm is a bit hurt right now. Im liking the Stabilty of it for sure as the pro seems a bit squirly for me

[John Keith]

nice, I will grap a few Champion ones this weekend....im excited about throwing it, also for pancakes and long rollers.

[pterodactyl]

*Katana=sweet!

[John Keith]

just a heads up on distance disc. I noticed this last weekend that most of the Big Arm pros threw 172 star and pro disc purley for distance contest. (Nikko wsa using Star destroyer and star boss at 172)So the 172 is a good wieght to pump out for Distance. Not necessarily all control for the course, but when you have the ceiling and room they were using these weights for looong distance.

[bullseyediscgolf]

Dave,

Would like to know your opinion about how and why golf discs become understable with the wear and tear of regular play. I have never really heard an "official" explanation from a major manufacturer, to as how, and why golf discs, lose their stability over time.

I have heard many peoples theories but they are just theories. Here are a few of them:

1) The bottom edge, when the top of the disc is facing up, becomes worn down from repeatedly hitting the ground and so the original shape of the mold becomes essentially "grinded" down.

MY THEORY: Some of the oldest discs in my bag (4-5yrs) exhibit no visible wear of the bottom shape of the mold even when held up to a brand new version of the same mold. Sure, the sharp flashing you get on some discs would be worn away but nothing like a 1/32" or more. This could be easily proven by taking a power sander to the bottom of a disc and doing a comparison, but that disc would be rendered illegal for sanctioned play.

2) The "Perfectness" of a discs original circular form has been diminished due to repeatedly hitting objects and the ground. Thus, the disc in essence, has become "wobbly" even though it's not necessarily visibly "tacoed."

MY THEORY: Again, many of my oldest most beat up premium plastic discs do not appear tacoed or visibly mishapen in any way yet they are totally more understable compared to the same mold / weight of an identical disc of the same run. In contrast, DX plastic which is clearly visibly tacoed or distorted, is clearly extremely understable compared to a new counterpart. It could be that a disc doesn't need to be visibly distorted to become more understable.

3) Alan Adler the inventor of the Aeroble Epic golf disc has a PhD in Aerodynamics. His instructional page explains his theory on why discs perform overstable or understable.

http://www.aerobie.com/Products/Deta...ingArticle.htm

Adler seems to believe it's not dings and dents that cause a disc to fly understable, but rather the distance of the edge in relation to the far bottom edge of the disc. He explains that as a disc wears from hitting objects and ground, the edge is bent towards the bottom of the disc which you can replicate yourself by bending a disc while standing on the tee. You see Ken Climo doing this on a lot of Worlds DVD's.

MY THEORY: I'm not sure he's right. If he was right, then a "hook" or concave shaped disc like a Firebird or Teebird should be understable. Understable discs like the Stingray and RoadRunner should then have a hooked or convex edge to simulate what happens when the edge of the disc is bent toward the bottom of the disc.

It's possible that bending or tuning a disc in the method Adler describes is essentially doing the same thing as when a disc hit's objects and the ground, thus the disc becomes "imperfect" and wobbly / understable.

I would love to hear all the major manufacturers opinions on why a disc becomes more understable with normal wear and tear. Please educate us on this topic as it also relates to why 2 different runs of the same mold / same plastic, can be so amazingly different in stability even though they should have been cast by the exact same mold.

[davei]

a disc can lose stability through wear or through rim bending. The wear factor is not a consistent factor and depends on the original shape of the disc. A frisbee shaped disc will be much more affected by wear on the bottom edge than a Roc, but a Roc will be affected over time too.

Bending or tacoing a disc will not necessarily change the stability either. Discs with wide rims are more vulnerable to having their long noses bent, and it is this, rather than the over all bent or straight shape of the entire disc that causes turn over.

[20460chase]

Do you feel the same way about putters?

I have a SS Magic I rolled into a ball and stuffed into my pocket. For some reason, it never found the garbage. I started messing around with it as a joke, but noticed that it had totally different stability, and now it doesnt want to stay flipped over. I can throw it nose up on ahny and it will drop back, which before was impossible for this disc.

Why would such a flippy disc get so much more overstable?

[veganray]

I have a similar experience with doggie discs. I typically use light Aviar P&As for my pup, and they get flippier & flippier for a while as their rims become more & more toothmarked. Then, all of a sudden, they reach some sort of breaking point & become MAD overstable, even thrown hard, nose up, and anhyzer. Always perplexed me…

[davei]

Originally Posted by 20460chase

Do you feel the same way about putters?

I have a SS Magic I rolled into a ball and stuffed into my pocket. For some reason, it never found the garbage. I started messing around with it as a joke, but noticed that it had totally different stability, and now it doesnt want to stay flipped over. I can throw it nose up on ahny and it will drop back, which before was impossible for this disc.

Why would such a flippy disc get so much more overstable?

Yes, putters are the same. There is something that is causing a new air pressure vector. That can come from several places. Excessively flattened disc can appear to be very over stable or under stable depending on how they were flattened and what speed they are thrown at.

[rizbee]

Hi Dave,

A while back I came across an X-out disc that was marked "LX" on the underside. It was light - 143g - and nice and gummy. What was this disc? I lost the original and now would like to find replacements!!

Thanks!!!

[quickdisc]

Hey Dave ,

Do you happen to know if these Vipers are made in Champion Plastic ?

[davei]

Tried to post answers but couldn't. Don't remember LX. Probably a Leopard variant or Proto for JLS or Ace.

[davei]

Donny,

Those were made before high tech plastic. Only DX.

[20460chase]

Is there multiple Viper molds, and if so, which would be found in Champion plastic? Thanks Dave.

[davei]

Originally Posted by 20460chase

Is there multiple Viper molds, and if so, which would be found in Champion plastic? Thanks Dave.

There have been two retools of the same mold. Only the last version of the three Vipers was shot in Champion as far as I know, but Mark Molnar says we have never shot the regular version in Champion.

There is an X version mold for fundraising shot in Champion.

www.discgolfsweden.se has the definitive information

[rizbee]

Originally Posted by davei

Tried to post answers but couldn't. Don't remember LX. Probably a Leopard variant or Proto for JLS or Ace.

It was definitely Leopard-ish. I picked it up from Emerald Isle's new X-out box in early 2007. If anyone comes across more while sweeping up in the warehouse, I'd love to get my hands on them.

[FizzyP]

Originally Posted by bullseyediscgolf

Dave,
MY THEORY: I'm not sure he's right. If he was right, then a "hook" or concave shaped disc like a Firebird or Teebird should be understable. Understable discs like the Stingray and RoadRunner should then have a hooked or convex edge to simulate what happens when the edge of the disc is bent toward the bottom of the disc.

No... I think Adler's right. I'm not sure why you think the concave wing should "simulate" what happens when the disc is bent towards the bottom exactly... It's not about that. It's about how the air flows over it, not about the curvature.

Lay a firebird down on a table next to a Roadrunner (or better yet a Katana.) The edge of the firebird is so much higher that you can actually slide a Katana UNDERNEATH the firebird without picking it up.

Like I said, it's not so much about the curvature of the wing. It's about how much air is flowing over the top, vs. the bottom of the disc and how much drag it causes.

I'd always wondered why some of my Buzzzs were more stable than others even though they mostly looked the same. Some of my Buzzzs that started out really stable were completely beat to crap and had some high speed turn would retain their fade. After I read the Adler article I layed them all on a table and looked at the height to the edge. If you put them in order of edge height, it was the same as stability order. 100% accurate predictor.

I do think he's not quite right about the surface features though. Discs with scratched up surfaces definitely have less HSS, but LSS seems mostly unaffected. I know this because I've taken a DX Leopard thrown it, scratched it with a rock, thrown it, scratched it with a rock, etc... and watched it develop high speed turn over the course of 20 minutes.

[John Keith]

and I love the X Version oif Vipers in Champion. Wow they are awesome disc. Keep em coming please.

[Webslinger]

I recently acquired this disc and would like to know a bit about its history...
Why do they call it a 'Night Shift' Boss?
How many were made and is there anything unique about the plastic itself, or is it regular Star plastic?

[gokayaksteven]

hey Dave-
are all of the 5x jk aviars the same firmness, or are there variations in flexibility among the discs that were stamped "5x"?
thanks

[ChrisMacG]

I love the XD. When I first started throwing the XD for approach and putting my game stepped up a notch and I credit it to the XD. I've got a Star XD 175 as my chief putter and a stack of DX XDs at home for practice.

I recently picked up two of the gummy XDs from the Japan Open, one R-Pro and one Champion. The gummy material is great for the XD, really easy to throw and they stop on a dime. What are the chances that we'll see these discs again?

Also, I heard the Star XD is no longer part of the CFR list - what gives? Do I need to start buying up Star XDs on Ebay just in case???

I can't live without this disc.

[davei]

Originally Posted by ChrisMacG

I love the XD. When I first started throwing the XD for approach and putting my game stepped up a notch and I credit it to the XD. I've got a Star XD 175 as my chief putter and a stack of DX XDs at home for practice.

I recently picked up two of the gummy XDs from the Japan Open, one R-Pro and one Champion. The gummy material is great for the XD, really easy to throw and they stop on a dime. What are the chances that we'll see these discs again?

Also, I heard the Star XD is no longer part of the CFR list - what gives? Do I need to start buying up Star XDs on Ebay just in case???

I can't live without this disc.

No worries. Although the XD is not a priority, it is a staple disc and will remain in inventory for a long time. We will do the R-Pro gummies again and the Stars too but I don't know the time frame.

[davei]

Originally Posted by Webslinger

I recently acquired this disc and would like to know a bit about its history...
Why do they call it a 'Night Shift' Boss?
How many were made and is there anything unique about the plastic itself, or is it regular Star plastic?

If indeed it is a Nightshift Boss, it will be Star and should be extra stable. It is not regular Star plastic.

[davei]

Originally Posted by gokayaksteven

hey Dave-
are all of the 5x jk aviars the same firmness, or are there variations in flexibility among the discs that were stamped "5x"?
thanks

There are multiple gradations of firmness or softness associated with the 5x JKs. We have a better opportunity now to consistently make them softer, as we have repaired the mold.

[gokayaksteven]

i like the firmer versions of the jk. what do you suggest i look for? certain colors? with or without the flight ratings?

[krupicka]

The 4x JK Aviars were firmer.