Ask Dave Dunipace About Innova Discs

[chrispfrisbee]

AVIAR x

I think he was asking about the Nightshift - Bosses, Destroyers and Orcs that were sold by Disc Golf Values about a year ago using the new stablization process. Thebosses and destroyers were stamped with the mini proto star and bar stamps and the orcs were stamped with the DX orc stamp, all were the same bluish star blend dubbed "nightshift blue".

http://cgi.ebay.com/INNOVA-NIGHT-SHI...item48390075dc

[AviarX]

Oh, I did buy one of those DX stamped Orcs from Mark -- never threw it though. It is the same color and opaqueness as my SB Orcs...

If the ones with the added stabilization are refered to as 'nightshift' as well that muddies the waters. Originally nightshift refered to Orcs that the nightshift created. Dave -- are these considered nightshift too?

Can someone post a timeline of the evolution of what 'nightshift' refers to which Dave can then vet?

[davei]

Originally Posted by ChrisEads

Dave with the release of the new echo boss's
They are very soft and have very little dome
Are they going to be more stable or less stable than the 167 star boss's which i found to be the more stable version of the boss.
Also is it possible to get the Echo down to the 167 weight range if so maybe this would make it more stable and give it that dome that most everyone looks for in their echo discs (xcals, dest)
thanks in advance

I don't know what that does as I would have needed to test it. I didn't. We ran some flattish softish Bosses recently as in the past they turned out to be a little flippier and faster. That didn't happen. They were just as stable as the firmer domier Bosses. It's gotten very difficult to predict flight characteristics of wide wing discs based on how they look out of the mold. Some domey Bosses are flippy and some are stable. Some flat Bosses have been very stable and some very flippy.

It may be possible to use the Starlite process with Echo. We have not yet tried it. Good idea though. It should, in theory, lighten it and stable it up at the same time. That's the theory any way.

[davei]

Originally Posted by AviarX

Oh, I did buy one of those DX stamped Orcs from Mark -- never threw it though. It is the same color and opaqueness as my SB Orcs...

If the ones with the added stabilization are refered to as 'nightshift' as well that muddies the waters. Originally nightshift refered to Orcs that the nightshift created. Dave -- are these considered nightshift too?

Can someone post a timeline of the evolution of what 'nightshift' refers to which Dave can then vet?

The original "nightshift" Orcs were opaque blue. Later, we used the stabilization process to "recreate" "nightshift"-like Orcs. They were Star Orcs which had been stabilized. These were made for Tulsa. There weren't very many of the originals, as I recall. Maybe two or three hundred.

The Star plastic did come from the Nightshift Orcs, but regular Star does nothing to enhance stability just grippiness. Stability is another process.

[agyba]

Originally Posted by AviarX

Nightshift Orcs were the precursor to Star plastic. The nightshift at Innova came up with it while making Champion or Pro Orcs. The distinguishing characteristics (I think) were they were opaque and tacky/grippier than Champion. According to legend, the Nightshift Orcs were especially stable and durable and attained some of the allure & mystique of old school CE plastic. They were definitely found desirably different by many Orc lovers.

later, Tulsa hosted Amateur Worlds and Innova made Special Blend Orcs as a fundraiser. Kevin McCoy might have had a hand in this? The Tulsa SB Orcs were opaque and pretty much second generation nightshift Orcs. Speaking from personal experience, they were fabulous (durable, stable, etc.). I believe it was the plastic itself which distinguished them. Grippy and long like Pro but durable as any Champion. I have never thrown a first generation nightshift Orc, but the Tulsa ones are good enough for me.

Innova subsequently released 'Star' plastic after the Special Blend Tulsa Orcs. I would call Star plastic third generation nightshift.

Not sure about Destroyers. Maybe a few got made with nightshift like properties?

I am not an expert on any of this so I am just throwing out there what my take is since noone seems to have addressed your question. Too bad Felix Sung effectively got banned from here by the members-only posting rule passed by the PDGA BoD because he was an irreplaceable voice of competent, informed, explanation.

my recommendation is do not get lured into expensive discs described as 'nightshift' or with other mythic monikers unless you know the seller, know exactly what the disc is and feel you really have to have it.

Thanks! Exactly what I was wondering about.

[agyba]

How about the 'stabilization' process? Is there any way to tell apart a destroyer that has been stabilized vs. one that has not ... I guess apart from the obvious of grabbing a stack and taking them to the football field?

For example you can generally tell a first run boss apart from the feldys by the grippier CFR type plastic and the more pronounced 'ridge' (I guess you could call it) on the flight plate.

[davei]

Originally Posted by agyba

How about the 'stabilization' process? Is there any way to tell apart a destroyer that has been stabilized vs. one that has not ... I guess apart from the obvious of grabbing a stack and taking them to the football field?

For example you can generally tell a first run boss apart from the feldys by the grippier CFR type plastic and the more pronounced 'ridge' (I guess you could call it) on the flight plate.

No consistent way to tell, but usually, the stabilization process is reserved for Champion as opposed to Star. Also, the stabilized discs tend to be a little firmer.

[ChrisEads]

Hey Dave you may already have this in the works but I am very interested in a really stable speed 13 driver,
What I was really wanting was a faster MAX, something that I can throw downhill or in a headwind and I dont have to worry about it flipping over but rather hold a hyzer line for the entire flight path.
Just something that I feel would be a good fit in your lineup

[20460chase]

Sorry I have been busy.

NightShift Orcs came in RED, BLUE, TEAL and YELLOW. Though there are some yellow out there that are actually mistamped Pro Orcs. If you bought a yellow one from a Pro player out of the Michigan/Wisconsin region around that time and its yellow, yours may be a Pro Orc. NS Orcs were opaque. 100%. No other Champion disc was, so they were easy to spot and some leaked out to random dealers from all over. A friend of mine was at a head shop in Iowa City and got 2 out of thier bins. They had no idea they were even different, he did and scooped them up. Those were the first I seen, a Red and a Yellow, and I have them both. I think RED is by far the rarest of all. I have seen one other that I can recall.

IMO, they are one of the better plastic mixs, and those were not "stabilized", they were actually more overstable than standard Champion Orcs. That was one of the big things about them at the time, you could crush them, even on anny and they would hold forever. I have heard only a few hundred up to 5-or 600 total released. I guess it would factor on run size during that timeframe. If I remember correctly, I dont think the higher ups were pleased that these discs were made, but I guess Dave could weigh in there.

The Tulsa Orcs were good discs, but neither the plastic or flight didnt match up for me. The plastic was better than average, as I had some 11x KC Teebirds that were in the same plastic that were sick. They still float around occasionally and are noticably different than other 11x KCs.

Yeah, Star plastic is loosely based on the Night Shift plastic from the first batch of Orcs more so than the Tulsas, at least thats what I thought, could also be based on some of the CE plastic as well. I have several Champion stamped -Star proto discs, but I dont think it was totally decided those would become thier own line, I think it was going to be a second option within Champion plastic. Once it came to play though, I think the costs made it move up in price, thus becoming its own line of plastic, more or less. Im sure Dave could also explain that better than I did as I only remember so much.

Original NightShift plastic is softer, and feels aged when its new. If you are familiar with some of the middle runs of softer CE plastic, the plastic that was more pastel and when used got a leathery feel to it, thats original nightshift, more or less.

I have several and really could care less about selling them, which is why they carry a high pricetag. With all the differnt Orcs out there now, I dont think they are worth buying to throw, but they do have a pretty important history when it comes to where we are now. ...and they are the best Orcs ever.

[Lyle O Ross]

Originally Posted by davei

Yes, at some point not yet determined. We may even try a new type Stingray with less low speed fade.

That's just not fair, foreshadowing with no actual indication of delivery time... I can't think of a better disc though than a stingray with no fade. Will you guys do a Champion version of the NLSF Stingray, if you produce it at all that is?

[rizbee]

Originally Posted by Lyle O Ross

That's just not fair, foreshadowing with no actual indication of delivery time... I can't think of a better disc though than a stingray with no fade. Will you guys do a Champion version of the NLSF Stingray, if you produce it at all that is?

***drool***

[davei]

Originally Posted by Lyle O Ross

That's just not fair, foreshadowing with no actual indication of delivery time... I can't think of a better disc though than a stingray with no fade. Will you guys do a Champion version of the NLSF Stingray, if you produce it at all that is?

Just to be clear, it would be LLSF rather than NLSF. We would probably test it in Champion, and if feasible run it in Champion. Sometimes that is not possible, so we would run it in Star, which is easier to heavy weights in.

[Lyle O Ross]

Originally Posted by davei

Just to be clear, it would be LLSF rather than NLSF. We would probably test it in Champion, and if feasible run it in Champion. Sometimes that is not possible, so we would run it in Star, which is easier to heavy weights in.

Too late, the expectation is set, NLSF, you're stuck with it; see, Rizbee is already drooling. Actually, LLSF is fine, just give it to me baby!

[AviarX]

Originally Posted by 20460chase

I have heard only a few hundred up to 5-or 600 total released. I guess it would factor on run size during that timeframe. If I remember correctly, I dont think the higher ups were pleased that these discs were made, but I guess Dave could weigh in there.

you seem privy to a lot of inside info about nightshift Orcs -- if i may ask: how did you acquire this knowledge?

[FizzyP]

Some questions for Dave:

1. Someone at clearwater disc golf said they weren't sure but maybe the Pro Leopard was going to be discontinued. Is that true?! That would be sad.

2. Why is there no Teebird in pro plastic? I'm aware of the TLs that were made in pro for a while, but I'm curious, why no standard Teebird in pro?

[ChrisEads]

Hey Dave you may already have this in the works but I am very interested in a really stable speed 13 driver,
What I was really wanting was a faster MAX, something that I can throw downhill or in a headwind and I dont have to worry about it flipping over but rather hold a hyzer line for the entire flight path.
Just something that I feel would be a good fit in your lineup

[davei]

Originally Posted by FizzyP

Some questions for Dave:

1. Someone at clearwater disc golf said they weren't sure but maybe the Pro Leopard was going to be discontinued. Is that true?! That would be sad.

2. Why is there no Teebird in pro plastic? I'm aware of the TLs that were made in pro for a while, but I'm curious, why no standard Teebird in pro?

1. The Pro Leopard is still being made. Even when we previously decided to cut back on Pro, the Leopard, Valkyrie, and Beast would have been continued. We were able to obtain more Pro material and have no need to discontinue any model with sufficient demand.

2. No demand that we are aware of.

[davei]

Originally Posted by ChrisEads

Hey Dave you may already have this in the works but I am very interested in a really stable speed 13 driver,
What I was really wanting was a faster MAX, something that I can throw downhill or in a headwind and I dont have to worry about it flipping over but rather hold a hyzer line for the entire flight path.
Just something that I feel would be a good fit in your lineup

We have something in the works.

[gippy]

Faster Orignal TEE-REX? nonTeeRex-X

[20460chase]

Originally Posted by AviarX

you seem privy to a lot of inside info about nightshift Orcs -- if i may ask: how did you acquire this knowledge?

I am Chase.

LOL, J/K. Alot of insight from Dave D and a few other people that could shed light on the subject. The same goes along with the Star plastic comments. Its also a tribute to my memory. Its fantastic when it comes to disc golf discs and info.

[gokayaksteven]

i think that if you could create a disc like the 10x teebird, using the pro-type plastic that the discmania pro pd's are run in, and have it mold up like the other teebirds, meaning not too domey like early pro teebirds and TL's, you would have a HUGE demand. I throw dx tees as my main drivers, and would definitely go to the hypothetical new pro teebird. I ran out of my 10x's long ago and found the dx to be similar in flight and "seasoning".
thanks for your time

[gokayaksteven]

hey Dave, in testing the pro katanas, did you or anyone try backhand rollers with them?

[davei]

Originally Posted by gippy

Faster Orignal TEE-REX? nonTeeRex-X

Something like that.

[davei]

Originally Posted by gokayaksteven

hey Dave, in testing the pro katanas, did you or anyone try backhand rollers with them?

Yes, I did and they are very long rollers.

[JerryChesterson]

Originally Posted by gokayaksteven

hey Dave, in testing the pro katanas, did you or anyone try backhand rollers with them?

You can CRUSH rollers with this disc. Just needs to come out in cahmp plastic before I replace my existing roller disc with it.

[Furthur]

I threw a sky roller with my Star one over a tree on an escape shot, and it turned out to be an amazing roller.

[NOHalfFastPull]

What can you tell us about the XG Boss?

I ordered some on the recommendation
of Jason Southwick. What does he know?

steve timm
td NOTeam '10 Pot of Gold

[davei]

Originally Posted by NOHalfFastPull

What can you tell us about the XG Boss?

I ordered some on the recommendation
of Jason Southwick. What does he know?

steve timm
td NOTeam '10 Pot of Gold

What is an XG Boss?

[davei]

Originally Posted by NOHalfFastPull

What can you tell us about the XG Boss?

I ordered some on the recommendation
of Jason Southwick. What does he know?

steve timm
td NOTeam '10 Pot of Gold

Okay, after searching on line for XG Boss, I found out what they were. It was a recent attempt, (by me), to make gummy Bosses like some of the first runs. They didn't turn out like the first ones. They ended up being a little softer and grippier, but didn't have any turn like the first ones.

We were going to use these for US Masters, but because they were just as stable as any Champion Boss, we decided not to.

[weaves]

While we are on the boss topic. Why is it that the first runs champion bosses (star stamp and 2008 usdgc stamp) have significantly smaller mold lines than normal production champion bosses?