2010 NT Schedule is a CROCK

[the_kid]

Originally Posted by Luke Butch

Why don't we(the pdga) stop paying our Executive director to fly to events to take pictures! I seriously doubt he flew cross country on his own dime to attend NTs just to watch.

Would be enough to pay every NT TD at least a decent chunk right there.

I agree for sure! He was at Worlds and USDGC and whenever I saw him out doing something he had his camera.

[cgkdisc]

Get real. Then posts like this show up when no PDGA staffer attends: http://www.pdga.com/discussion/showt...t=32219&page=2

[suemac]

Originally Posted by cgkdisc

Get real. Then posts like this show up when no PDGA staffer attends: http://www.pdga.com/discussion/showt...t=32219&page=2

I doubt it would have happened at any event where men where playing. Now you are starting to sound like Washington. Shifting the spotlight to a completely different situation.

And we still don't know why a summit was planned for the same weekend of the Women's Nationals. I guess you guys knew you didn't need any women in attendance at your SUMMIT.

[cgkdisc]

Juliana, Addie, Lori and Karolyn were at the Summit which is a higher percentage of women attendees than the membership. No PDGA staffer went to the US Masters which is really the 'old boys network' don'tcha think? (and had more players than the USWDGC)

[Luke Butch]

Originally Posted by cgkdisc

Get real. Then posts like this show up when no PDGA staffer attends: http://www.pdga.com/discussion/showt...t=32219&page=2

since when does the PDGA care so much about whining from a select few?


maybe some (new) tournaments need PDGA assistance, but established NTs clearly do not need both the ED and a marshal.

I doubt Brian is sleeping on a floor or sharing a hotel 4 ways when he travels to these events. So 4 nights of hotel @ 85 a night lets say, airfare ($400), rental car (50day x 4 days = 200), plus random expenses, means we could be giving NT TDs 1k+ each.

Or we could keep paying someone to go take pictures at our top events, most of which don't even get posted online

[Jeff_LaG]

Originally Posted by Luke Butch

Why don't we(the pdga) stop paying our Executive director to fly to events to take pictures! I seriously doubt he flew cross country on his own dime to attend NTs just to watch.

Would be enough to pay every NT TD at least a decent chunk right there.

What a joke!

Like it isn't good business practice for an international sports governing body to directly support the members at its bigger events. In addition to taking pictures, the ED is also providing the following support:

1. Marshal
2. Rules Official
3. Daily story and photos for PDGA.com
4. Feature story and photos for DiscGolfer Magazine
5. Final round live scoring
6. Organizational representation at PDGA Major event
7. Meeting with disc manufacturers
8. Availability to members, spectators, promoters, volunteers, and media
9. Recruitment of committee members

All while giving up yet another weekend with his family to work instead. The assertion that the ED wouldn't be thrifty with our members money is absurd.

[rhett]

This thread is ridiculous.

Maybe we could skip the standard cry from the_kid of "gimme a dollar every time you play" and his BS "the SN tour does it better even though they really don't do anything", and all the other PDGA haters who keep renewing for unknown reasons.

After wading through all this exceptionally crappy crap, I have distilled the comments down to one reasonable question. Let's strip away the hyperbole and hater-ade and address that question. I'll state it for y'all. Please create new threads for bashing the ED, the BoD, and some TD in Illinois who actually makes a profit running events while providing good value. We've had a good romp around all the standard bases, so there's no reason to talk about DROT, dope smoking, fairway runups, or any of the other standard topics not already covered in thread drift. Here it is:

Why wasn't there an NT event in Texas in 2009 nor one scheduled for Texas in 2010? Approximately 10% of all PDGA events for calendar year 2009 were held in Texas, so it seems like an omission to not have an NT there. Does anyone know the facts as to why there wasn't one?

[rhett]

Originally Posted by rhett

Why wasn't there an NT event in Texas in 2009 nor one scheduled for Texas in 2010? Approximately 10% of all PDGA events for calendar year 2009 were held in Texas, so it seems like an omission to not have an NT there. Does anyone know the facts as to why there wasn't one?

Hey, that's a nicely worded question. I think one of the main reasons there is no NT in Texas is because an NT isn't just another tourney. By stepping up to run an NT, you give up a lot of control of your own event even though you still have to run it all yourself. The NT Committee is comprised of the NT TDs and a BoD member or two, or at least it used to be when the NT was first formed and I was paying atention, and that NT Committee agrees to standards and formats and, most importantly/annoyingly, scheduling.

To put it bluntly, to be an NT event you just might not get to choose when your event happens. I think that happend to the usual suspects of Texas Big Time TDs who stepped up for NT duty a few years ago. (I'm pretty sure all you Texans should know who your Big Time TDs are that might actually take on this kind of task. They are the same guys that seem to do everything.)

The NT itself started out with lofty goals and not-very-steely ideals. It was originally intended to be MPO/FPO only, but lashback quickly deteriorated those ideals. The NT Committee still held on to the schedule thing for a while before weakening even more, and I think that's when the Texas TDs decided it wasn't worth it to run an NT. You give up a lot and if being told you have to have a final-9 for video coverage that doesn't show up on "not your chosen weekend" isn't your idea of a good time, then you might see why they decided to pass after a while.

Since the main guys that do everything tried it and didn't like it, there is no one left to step up and try it again. Everyone else, I believe, is waiting for the regular guys who do everything to do it...and they don't want to. And that's fine. They don't have to.

It's actually sad for the whole NT, not just Texas. The NT was supposed to be the showcase series for the best of the best, with a common format and limited divisions. I think Tim Selinske had the right idea in creating a brand new event, the Golden State Classic which no longer exists, to fit the NT paradigm instead of trying to take an existing event with it's own personal and regional flavor and forcing it to conform to the NT standards. I think the whole NT would be in much better shape if all NT TDs could've done this instead of trying to make The Memorial and The Masters Cup and the PFDO and MDGO and Texas States all fit the mold of the NT.

Maybe with the evolution of the NT into "just another series of A-tiers", maybe if someone in Texas were willing to try it again, I could see a tourney like the VPO going to the NT Committe and saying, "we'd like in, but we'd have to keep our current weekend and we're going to use our normal format" and they might get approved. But the VPO TD and club would have to want that first, and it's up to you Texas guys to convince them to want it.

Personally, I don't see the draw for signing up for the extra work when an event is running well already.

[cgkdisc]

Simple answer. No bid received.

For what it's worth, when the NT first started, the plan was for a regionally balanced tour that flowed nicely around the country for travelers. That concept ground to a halt over the first few years since no national sponsor was landed. Since very little added money was available to fund the tour stops with sufficient added cash and thus have some control over the sites and timing, the PDGA was forced to revert to asking for bids from host teams willing to meet the guidelines. Just another form of, "He who has the gold makes the rules" or in this case, defines the route.

[Luke Butch]

Originally Posted by Jeff_LaG

What a joke!

Like it isn't good business practice for an international sports governing body to directly support the members at its bigger events. In addition to taking pictures, the ED is also providing the following support:

1. Marshal what does the ED have to do with the marshal being there?
2. Rules Official shouldn't the marshal and TDs be enough for this?
3. Daily story and photos for PDGA.com why not pay someone local to do this?
4. Feature story and photos for DiscGolfer Magazine why not pay someone local to do this?
5. Final round live scoring shouldn't NTs have plenty of staff for this?
6. Organizational representation at PDGA Major event
7. Meeting with disc manufacturers to do what that couldn't be handled via email?
8. Availability to members, spectators, promoters, volunteers, and media
9. Recruitment of committee members seems to be doing a pretty poor job of this imo
   
   

All while giving up yet another weekend with his family to work instead. The assertion that the ED wouldn't be thrifty with our members money is absurd.
OH MAN HE HAS TO WORK ON A WEEKEND! WHAT A TOUGH LIFE!

give me a break Jeff.

[gregbrowning]

Originally Posted by cgkdisc

Simple answer. No bid received.

For what it's worth, when the NT first started, the plan was for a regionally balanced tour that flowed nicely around the country for travelers. That concept ground to a halt over the first few years since no national sponsor was landed. Since very little added money was available to fund the tour stops with sufficient added cash and thus have some control over the sites and timing, the PDGA was forced to revert to asking for bids from host teams willing to meet the guidelines. Just another form of, "He who has the gold makes the rules" or in this case, defines the route.

I am the TD of the VPO, and I am getting a little tired of the "nobody is willing to step up" argument. I inquired about the possibility of making the VPO a NT level event for 2010 and was met with criticisms from both the tour manager and a few pros as well. I think it was David Gentry who told me that they would be unlikely to be willing to extend the season into late Oct/early Nov. A couple of pros also had a good point, that the USDGC as the last major of the year, is kind of like the end of the season, so it doesn't make sense to have another smaller event afterward. I know USDGC is not NT, but that was the logic.

I don't have a problem with any of the issues they discussed, but I would like for everyone to please stop with the statements that we never bothered to try. Rhett had a good point--it wasn't worth trying to reshape a 20 year old event to fit the NT model, so we will just continue as one of the highest-paying SuperTour events every year and be just fine with that. Just look at the pre-registration for this year's event and I think it is clear that people will show up when the course and event is good, and the money is there, regardless of the official sanctioning level.

[cgkdisc]

No need to apologize nor be defensive. You're not on the hot seat here. VPO is a great event and will hopefully continue that way. No one should expect you to create a new event during the NT season when you already contribute for the benefit of the top players in your own way.

[suemac]

Originally Posted by cgkdisc

Juliana, Addie, Lori and Karolyn were at the Summit which is a higher percentage of women attendees than the membership. No PDGA staffer went to the US Masters which is really the 'old boys network' don'tcha think? (and had more players than the USWDGC)

]

I'm sorry, I was wrong, but don't a couple of those ladies work for the PDGA, serving our membership, which is mostly men? j/k

[gregbrowning]

Originally Posted by cgkdisc

No need to apologize nor be defensive. You're not on the hot seat here. VPO is a great event and will hopefully continue that way. No one should expect you to create a new event during the NT season when you already contribute for the benefit of the top players in your own way.

Heh, not so much defensive, but lazy. It was more convenient than answering the 10-15 PMs saying "Dude why don't you make it a NT event next year? C'mon, you should step it up!"

[rhett]

Originally Posted by gregbrowning

Heh, not so much defensive, but lazy. It was more convenient than answering the 10-15 PMs saying "Dude why don't you make it a NT event next year? C'mon, you should step it up!"

I hope I didn't offend you or any other hard-working Texas mover TDs.

I was just trying to make a point, and that point being that Texas is no doubt like most other areas: a dedicated few make most everything happen for the masses. When an NT event doesn't make sense for those few, the masses sit around and wait for the few to do it. For there to be an NT in Texas either someone new has to step up to make it happen, or else some new blood has to step up to convince one of the movers-and-shakers to make it happen.

It obviously doesn't make sense to do it right now or else the movers-and-shakers would already be doing it.

Don't let the "gimme a dollar everytime you play a round" guys drive a wedge between us all. I think you guys kick arse with all the courses and great events you have over there.

[james_mccaine]

I suspect the only wedge being driven was in your mind. Most folks over here can listen to a differing opinion and move on.

[gregbrowning]

Originally Posted by rhett

I hope I didn't offend you or any other hard-working Texas mover TDs.

I was just trying to make a point, and that point being that Texas is no doubt like most other areas: a dedicated few make most everything happen for the masses. When an NT event doesn't make sense for those few, the masses sit around and wait for the few to do it. For there to be an NT in Texas either someone new has to step up to make it happen, or else some new blood has to step up to convince one of the movers-and-shakers to make it happen.

It obviously doesn't make sense to do it right now or else the movers-and-shakers would already be doing it.

Don't let the "gimme a dollar everytime you play a round" guys drive a wedge between us all. I think you guys kick arse with all the courses and great events you have over there.

No offense taken. I think what you said is fairly accurate and valid. I just wanted to respond to everyone who keeps asking me why I don't spend MORE time and effort on the VPO than I already do.

[the_kid]

Originally Posted by rhett

I hope I didn't offend you or any other hard-working Texas mover TDs.

I was just trying to make a point, and that point being that Texas is no doubt like most other areas: a dedicated few make most everything happen for the masses. When an NT event doesn't make sense for those few, the masses sit around and wait for the few to do it. For there to be an NT in Texas either someone new has to step up to make it happen, or else some new blood has to step up to convince one of the movers-and-shakers to make it happen.

It obviously doesn't make sense to do it right now or else the movers-and-shakers would already be doing it.

Don't let the "gimme a dollar everytime you play a round" guys drive a wedge between us all. I think you guys kick arse with all the courses and great events you have over there.

What you really have to look out for is the "give us $3 and we promise we will put it to good use" guys. Cali life must be making you people cranky nowadays.

[rizbee]

Rhett, I can't beleive you waded through all of the pages - you must not have gotten Rock Band Van Halen yet to give you something better to do. I sure couldn't read through all the drivel. But we came to similar conclusions: Yeah, it seems like Texas should have an NT, since it's so **** big. But it's a lot of work, and someone needs to have incentive to do all that extra work...and you obviously understand from experience how that incentive dissipates amid the long volunteer hours and the whiny pros. And trying to shoehorn an already successful event, with it's unique format, preferred schedule and favorite sponsors into a different spot on the calendar won't work in most cases.

Texas, if you want an NT for 2011 (yes 2011) start working on it now. Recognize that big events take time to plan and organize. Recognize that YOU have to do the work - that the PDGA does not have the resources to spend a year or two organizing your big event. And please stop using the NFL, PGA or NASCAR as examples with which to compare the PDGA. Geez, the whole NT Open purse is probably equal to what a Detroit Lions backup lineman gets paid for a few games, or the last guy who makes the cut at a PGA event, or the guy who blows his engine 2/3 of the way through a NASCAR race - the comparison is ludicrous.

Start early, get a team together that understands the long haul ahead, and find your sponsor. Please. We all want you to succeed. But don't expect someone else to do it for you.

[kvdiscpro]

well, I love the idea of having a tram of PDGA that travels to enhance tournys. I would be willing to pay double or triple my renewal Fee if this was a possibility. Im not speaking for everyone. Bit im really excited about a NT tour growing and would love to see Texas have one, and would love to see a nation wide flow to it for travle purposes. And yes as a member Im willing to pay for that. I would atleast like to see the PDGA try and come up with ideas to help grow the "TOUR". and I think its worth paying for if they would want to do something like this???

Im all about supporting the PDGA or whoever to grow a TOUR.

[kvdiscpro]

well and props to all of us discgolfers...we are getting there. Yes i really want to see Texas do better since we are so big we have no ecxuse between Houston, Dallas and Austin why we cant all come together and pitch in to throw a huge event. Lazyness and a lack of communication skills between cities. But im excited with exposure liek Tigerwoods 2010 golf....that will and can help gain sponsors for us. I can see EA sports coming on board if we can all buy the game and support them. Also Acedemy sports has done a great job of selling disc and has grown there inventory. I can also see this becoming a potential title sponsor. I see a good future for DG, i just hope Texas can get their ducks in a row and and learn to call each other and get in on this.

[discette]

Originally Posted by kvdiscpro

well, I love the idea of having a tram of PDGA that travels to enhance tournys.I would be willing to pay double or triple my renewal Fee if this was a possibility. Im not speaking for everyone. Bit im really excited about a NT tour growing and would love to see Texas have one, and would love to see a nation wide flow to it for travle purposes. And yes as a member Im willing to pay for that. I would atleast like to see the PDGA try and come up with ideas to help grow the "TOUR". and I think its worth paying for if they would want to do something like this???

Im all about supporting the PDGA or whoever to grow a TOUR.

THREAD DRIFT ALERT!!!!!


Good luck doubling or tripling the PDGA renewal fee so 98% of the membership can each pay an extra $100 or $150 PER YEAR to help 2% have a "TOUR".

BACK TO THE SUBJECT

It sounds more like the entitled players in Texas want a USDGC qualifier.Texas already has several large events that rival NT's in attendance and pay. Wrapping one of these up with an NT label won't magically make it better (although it would make an automatic USDGC qualifier). Look into making Texas States a USDGC qualifier or elevate another event that takes place in the correct time frame.

If you all in Texas are unwilling to compromise, change your schedule or elevate an event, you get what you get. It is not up to the PDGA to throw money or resources your way, nor the USDGC to change their qualifying time frame to accommodate you. While it may be too late for 2010, you all have plenty of time to get it right in 2011. I really don't want to read about this again next October.

[davidsauls]

There was some confusion in earlier posts equating NTs with USDGC Qualifier. I'd think having a USDGC Qualifier in the area would be more important to local players. This year Tulsa held one; not in Texas, certainly a long drive for many Texas, but closer than the nearest NT. I'm too lazy to look, but I think someone posted that for 2010 a Texas tournament is negotiating to be a USDGC Qualifier.

I'll muddy the water further and point out that the PDGA is a member organization with a broad range of members and members interests to address. I wonder how many really care about the NT? Most members are Ams, and I suspect many or most do not care, or at least to the degree to want the PDGA to divert resources to it. (Which is not say the PDGA shouldn't---presumably everything the PDGA does will please some members, while certain others could care less).

Personally, I think the NT is an idea whose time has not yet come. Disc Golf hasn't reached the critical mass for a large national sponsor which would hold a big enough carrot to convince TDs to change their events or create new events to meet a true tour standard. In the meantime, we have more "Majors" than I can name, to the degree that the Majors are sort of a National Tour. It seems all Majors are not created equal; a few, perhaps just Worlds and USDGC, command more attention and attraction. These almost function as "Super Majors", and the NT is something of a 3rd-tier of events.

None of which I intend as a criticism. God Bless those who have worked hard on the NT, both nationally and locally. They're certainly doing more for disc golf than I am. But I, for one, don't care much whether there's an NT within 100 miles of me, or none within 1,000.

[jackinkc]

Originally Posted by davidsauls

There was some confusion in earlier posts equating NTs with USDGC Qualifier. I'd think having a USDGC Qualifier in the area would be more important to local players......

I'll muddy the water further and point out that the PDGA is a member organization with a broad range of members and members interests to address. I wonder how many really care about the NT? Most members are Ams, and I suspect many or most do not care, or at least to the degree to want the PDGA to divert resources to it. (Which is not say the PDGA shouldn't---presumably everything the PDGA does will please some members, while certain others could care less).

Personally, I think the NT is an idea whose time has not yet come. Disc Golf hasn't reached the critical mass for a large national sponsor which would hold a big enough carrot to convince TDs to change their events or create new events to meet a true tour standard. In the meantime, we have more "Majors" than I can name, to the degree that the Majors are sort of a National Tour. It seems all Majors are not created equal; a few, perhaps just Worlds and USDGC, command more attention and attraction. These almost function as "Super Majors", and the NT is something of a 3rd-tier of events.

None of which I intend as a criticism. God Bless those who have worked hard on the NT, both nationally and locally. They're certainly doing more for disc golf than I am. But I, for one, don't care much whether there's an NT within 100 miles of me, or none within 1,000.

Resisting the urge to respond, but I think this is exaclty spot on. Especially, "
Personally, I think the NT is an idea whose time has not yet come. Disc Golf hasn't reached the critical mass for a large national sponsor which would hold a big enough carrot to convince TDs to change their events or create new events to meet a true tour standard.
"

I think that is the biggest problem. If we had a sponsor that came in to every city and gave a check for a $10,000 add-in, all the TD's would gladly welcome their requests. Until that time, TD's work way to hard to listen to people that are not there locally to instruct on how to create an event. Most places in today's arena that run large events, have people that have been running them or helping for several decades now. Its tough to change, and when we really have very little added dollars to incentivize that TD, why change?

We are all people of habit, we must break the habit to make it work, and you must work to make change, no one NO ONE else is going to do it but you. To ask the PDGA (an office of 5 people for close to 1,000 yearly events to monitor mind you) to come in and run an event is silly. They have enough problems getting all the registration in, events listed, and fighting electronic gremlins to keep our sport standardized, now you want them to spend the little time they have on getting Texas to have an NT?

Really?

The NT needs more sponsorship on a national level the PDGA should be working on that and media relations within the municipalities that have these large events (NT, SuperTour, Majors), work it out locally and watch it grow locally before it can go national.

Texas folks, need to just realize that the Texas Pride you have for your state, may not warrant the pride that people have for events. You can't force a system to change by one state, it takes an entire organization to change it, and the USDGC, well thats an Innova thing, so you have to change their mind.

Best of luck, but don't hate the people offering to make the event continue because your mad you don't have one in your backyard. If it is that important to you, you will travel, and spend money.....if you support your local club and for that matter (EVERY STATE PDGA COORDINATOR GIVES 1 SPOT TO THE USDGC) work witht he state rep, you will get to play in Winthrop.

Hate the NT because it doesn't stop in texas.........wow, I will just reserve my other comments, but really, WOW......

[Dick]

shouldn't this thread be under "other pdga topics" i don't see any actual tourney info. i do see a bunch of people getting worked up into a lather. not sure i see any big difference between an NT and a supertour other than they are always USDGC qualifiers. Surely texas has USDGC qualifiers. IF not that is between the TD's in texas and the USDGC folks. I'm not sure i particularly love the distribution of USDGC qualifiers, but that has nothing to do with the PDGA.

carry on....

and BTW, is lagrassa now the official voice and defender of all things PDGA? Just askin is all.

[the_kid]

Originally Posted by Dick

shouldn't this thread be under "other pdga topics" i don't see any actual tourney info. i do see a bunch of people getting worked up into a lather. not sure i see any big difference between an NT and a supertour other than they are always USDGC qualifiers. Surely texas has USDGC qualifiers. IF not that is between the TD's in texas and the USDGC folks. I'm not sure i particularly love the distribution of USDGC qualifiers, but that has nothing to do with the PDGA.

carry on....

and BTW, is lagrassa now the official voice and defender of all things PDGA? Just askin is all.

Yes Texas has ONE spot...............like every other state.

[johnbiscoe]

full list of qualifiers is not even out yet.

[the_kid]

Originally Posted by johnbiscoe

full list of qualifiers is not even out yet.

Ok then, TX has had ONE spot the past two maybe 3 years......................and so far we haven't heard anything through the rumor mill about getting one this year even though I'm pretty sure this was brought up sometime last year.

[gregbrowning]

Originally Posted by the_kid

Ok then, TX has had ONE spot the past two maybe 3 years......................and so far we haven't heard anything through the rumor mill about getting one this year even though I'm pretty sure this was brought up sometime last year.

While we are on the topic of USDGC qualifiers--does anyone know who at Innova is in charge of making this decision? Is it Dave, Harold, or someone else?