Ask Dave Dunipace About Innova Discs

[J_VanOver]

Originally Posted by davei

I believe they are changing the upper limit to 159.9g. No tolerance.

That change results in a 6.25% increase in impact force of a disc on a person. Going to full weight discs of 175g drivers would result in a 14.3% increase in impact force. (That is if the disc came to a complete stop at impact and I don't have enough time today to calculate the velocity after impact with rotation of the disc)

(The calculation that I used was Net Force = mass*velocity(final) - mass*velocity(initial) divided by time to stop (I know it is basic but I was in a hurry). In this case, time to stop doesn't matter becuase I was looking at a percentage of increase. It could be any time and the percentage stays the same but the faster it stops the more force it exerts. I also used 80mph as a velocity or 117ft/sec)

I guess I don't understand what the justification was for the JPDGA to increase weight. If their original reasoning for using 152g or less was safety then increasing the weight is not safer. They may have not seen any accidents over the years to justify the weight restriction so they allowed a heavier weight. If that is so, go ahead and allow full weight discs.

If it is to allow for a more variety of discs that can be molded at a lower weight without quality issues for disc manufacturers then I find that disturbing or pandering. I would consider a quality issue in this case to be discs, that when molded, fall in a range that is normally unsellable/low selling range (150-160). How many people do you know that says "Hey, I just got this new 154 driver!" No offense to the Innova team or other manufacturers but I hope this is not the case of the JPDGA bowing to the request of the manufacturers to sell more discs.

I wish I could read Japanese so that I could see a posting on their website to read the reasoning for the change. If someone knows, can you please fill us in.

[tkieffer]

Originally Posted by J_VanOver

I would consider a quality issue in this case to be discs, that when molded, fall in a range that is normally unsellable/low selling range (150-160). How many people do you know that says "Hey, I just got this new 154 driver!"

You must not play with a lot of older players. Others with slower arm speeds (women, youth, beginners and so on) are also digging the lighter discs. 150-160 is by no means unsellable nor of undesirable quality.

"Hey, I just got a new 158g R-Boss!" Now you've heard it.

[gokayaksteven]

Hi Dave-- you guys planning on doing dx bosses?

[ibgollie]

Dave,

Thanks for taking the time to answer all our questions, it's really cool.

Here's mine: I recently won a Innova Champion (Small Star) Stamped TeeRex, it's dated and numbered, what's the story behind this disc and others like it?

Thanks!

[davei]

Originally Posted by weaves

Hey Dave, do you know when the collector guide will come out for the usdgc rocs?

No, sorry. You should ask zonedriven.

[davei]

Originally Posted by gokayaksteven

Hi Dave-- you guys planning on doing dx bosses?

Not at this point.

[davei]

Originally Posted by ibgollie

Dave,

Thanks for taking the time to answer all our questions, it's really cool.

Here's mine: I recently won a Innova Champion (Small Star) Stamped TeeRex, it's dated and numbered, what's the story behind this disc and others like it?

Thanks!

I don't know the specific story, but Mark at discgolfvalues probably would. Generally, that would be a limited/first run collector disc.

[davei]

Originally Posted by 33009

Im sorry but what does HOF disc mean? hall of fame?

Yes.

[rizbee]

Originally Posted by tkieffer

You must not play with a lot of older players. Others with slower arm speeds (women, youth, beginners and so on) are also digging the lighter discs. 150-160 is by no means unsellable nor of undesirable quality.

"Hey, I just got a new 158g R-Boss!" Now you've heard it.

Yup, and I'm watching my mailbox for the 151-154g Katana that's on it's way. FYI, my go-to drivers are: 150g Sidewinder, 150g TeeBird, 154g Orc, 155g Valkyrie, 157g Beast, 162g Wraith, all Champion. I just turned 48 two weeks ago...

[J_VanOver]

Originally Posted by tkieffer

You must not play with a lot of older players. Others with slower arm speeds (women, youth, beginners and so on) are also digging the lighter discs. 150-160 is by no means unsellable nor of undesirable quality.

"Hey, I just got a new 158g R-Boss!" Now you've heard it.

My go to/favorite driver is a 160g R-pro Boss. I played in Japan last year so I have played with a lot of 150 class discs for about 6 months prior to going. My favorite disc of all time that I have stashed away for the 2010 JO (if I can make it) is a 150 Flat-Top Element X. My bag has several 150/160 discs in it. I'm also 34 years old. So it is not always "older" players. I've met Dr. Rick and Sylvia and they are the King and Queen of 150 plastic. I had a 500 yen bet with Sylvia for the final round of the JO on who would score better, her or me. She won by a stroke. So that would also put me in the beginner group too.

My point of the email was questioning the change from a 150 +/1 2g disc to 159.9. And I will stand behind that 170-175g discs outsell discs in the 152-160 range 50 to 1.

[ChrisEads]

Dave
Is the Groove going to be continued to be produced and if so is there any possibility that it will be made in pro plastic. Or is there a chance that you are going to try and make something in the stability range between the katana and boss that doesnt have the groove on the underside.

[MrJB]

I'm not sure, but I played last year and my impression is that their weight restriction is based in part on the crowded multi use parks that most of their tourneys are played in. Seeing that the Japan Open is played on an exclusive golf course that is closed to the public during the tournament play, it seems reasonable that the safety requirement be relaxed a few grams in consideration of the international players who don't throw 150g plastic much, making the transition a little easier.

Just a thought...

[davei]

Originally Posted by ChrisEads

Dave
Is the Groove going to be continued to be produced and if so is there any possibility that it will be made in pro plastic. Or is there a chance that you are going to try and make something in the stability range between the katana and boss that doesnt have the groove on the underside.

The Groove will continue to be produced in Champion. We did try to mold in Pro, but they ended up too stable, like some of the Champion did before. We have no plans for any disc between the Boss and Katana, other than the Champion Groove. On the other hand, Pro Bosses and RPro Bosses are less high speed stable than Star or Champion. And the Katana will have a high speed stability range too where the most stable, (probably the Champion), will be closer to a -2, and the least stable (probably the Pro), will be the -3. Also, we will be making some Star Katanas in the Starlight, which has proven to be the most stable of all the plastics. Those may well be -1 or 0.

[tkieffer]

Originally Posted by J_VanOver

My go to/favorite driver is a 160g R-pro Boss. I played in Japan last year so I have played with a lot of 150 class discs for about 6 months prior to going. My favorite disc of all time that I have stashed away for the 2010 JO (if I can make it) is a 150 Flat-Top Element X. My bag has several 150/160 discs in it. I'm also 34 years old. So it is not always "older" players. I've met Dr. Rick and Sylvia and they are the King and Queen of 150 plastic. I had a 500 yen bet with Sylvia for the final round of the JO on who would score better, her or me. She won by a stroke. So that would also put me in the beginner group too.

My point of the email was questioning the change from a 150 +/1 2g disc to 159.9. And I will stand behind that 170-175g discs outsell discs in the 152-160 range 50 to 1.

Not making a point about which weight sells how may discs. Making a point towards your inference that there is some sort of underlying quality issue.

[J_VanOver]

Originally Posted by tkieffer

Not making a point about which weight sells how may discs. Making a point towards your inference that there is some sort of underlying quality issue.

My point is this: Innova, and other disc manufacturers, who try to mold 150 and sub-150 discs for a particular segment (the Asian market in this case because of the weight restriction) have a fallout of discs that weigh more than the previously allowable 152g. This is because of the difficulty in the molding process with the plastic that they use. That is why you do not see 150g Star because it has a chemical composition that does not allow it to be molded that light. Because of this fallout of discs weighing above the 152g limit I infered that there could be some pressure from the disc manufacturers to have the JO or the JPDGA raise the weight limit so that they have a broader range of "sellable" discs. The discs themselves do not have flaw or a "quality" issue. The flaw or quality issue is molding a disc in a particular plastic at a particular weight within an acceptable standard deviation. If I owned Innova or Discraft or Gateway, I would have a hard time wanting to mold a disc knowing that I couldn't easily sell 25% of the run. (I don't know if they have 25% fallout - it's just an example) If I had 25% "scrap" at my workplace, I would be out of business.

[Trickay]

Today i took a trip to Camden park in IL with some people i play with often, after the round we ended up chucking some drives off a good size hill 90-110ft high trying to hit a parking lot around 650ft away, into a 15- 20mph head wind. I don't by any means have a cannon arm(430ft) but I ended up throwing the new star mako 176g hyzer flipped and straight and was equal with the corner of the lot. (I know the hole does not play 650ft but still with a head wind and a midrange,thats beasty.)

I just wanted to say the glide and straightness of this disc are unparalleled,it has no turn or fade when thrown with some power its just straight. I threw a buzz and a roc and didnt get anywhere near it. It also went farther the alot of my fairway and max drivers. only the wraith,destroyer,and pro line beast beat it.

I think you have just made one of my favorite midrange discs.

[jHarr]

dang those testimonials might just have to try a mako
1st name overlap I can think of 'tween my passions...
the volkl Katana is a pretty sweet ski in its own right so good on ya...
(knew I heard that name before)

Description of Völkl Katana Skis '09
WAS: $849.00
NOW: $593.95
The Katana features a top-end wood core and vertical sidewall construction, with two sheets of titanium. Although it has a 111 mm waist, the most unique feature on the Katana is the Powder Channel. The Powder Channel allows us to provide the ride quality of a swallow-tail design while still allowing the skier to ride switch. The Katana comes with a slight rocker for easy smearing in powder. Other details include the Völkl logo edge anchors and honeycomb sidewall graphics with custom printing.

[veganray]

Salomon Fastback snowboard
Salomon Scream skis
Rossignol Blast skis
Salomon Wildfire ski pants
Dare2B Piranha jacket
Nordica Beast boots
The North Face Valkyrie jacket
K2 Sidewinder skis
Dynastar Contact Groove skis
Grandoe Wizard gloves
Rossignol Voodoo skis
Uvex Magic goggles
Rossignol Avenger skis
Dalbello Surge boots
Nordica Flash boots
K2 Force skis
I'm sure there are many more . . .

[shteev]

is there a date on a regular run release of the Katana?

[davei]

Originally Posted by shteev

is there a date on a regular run release of the Katana?

No date yet. The Pro will be the first release. The earliest release for the Pro would be mid December. If we can't make that, it would be some time after New Years.

[flynvegas]

Originally Posted by davei

Yes, a black Aviar P&A.

Dave,
Would you happen to know where I can find / buy one?

[davei]

Originally Posted by flynvegas

Dave,
Would you happen to know where I can find / buy one?

Sorry, no.

[tokyo]

Hi dave was wondering if you have run any makos that wernt first run yet and if there is a difference seeing sometimes first runs fly a bit different than regular run discs, cause im lovin the mako

[gokayaksteven]

how does more/less dome affect dx rocs?
thanks

[davei]

Originally Posted by tokyo

Hi dave was wondering if you have run any makos that wernt first run yet and if there is a difference seeing sometimes first runs fly a bit different than regular run discs, cause im lovin the mako

The Makos we are running now are the same material batch as the initial run, so they should have very few variations compared to runs with different material batches. But, yes, this is the second time we put the mold in.

[davei]

Originally Posted by gokayaksteven

how does more/less dome affect dx rocs?
thanks

DX is probably the easiest material to predict with respect to shape after molding. Generally, with DX you can expect a domier disc of the same mold to be a little less high speed stable, slightly slower, with slightly more glide.

[two5twosix9]

I am a big fan of the aero, have you ever made or thought about making champ glow aeros?

[davei]

Originally Posted by two5twosix9

I am a big fan of the aero, have you ever made or thought about making champ glow aeros?

If we haven't, we should have. Thanks for the suggestion.

[two5twosix9]

Originally Posted by davei

If we haven't, we should have. Thanks for the suggestion.

That would be sweet!

[dehaas]

Dave, I was sifting through some older discs of mine and ran across a star stamp spider I forgot I had. I remember hearing that these were some of the last CE discs made, and I've also heard these were champion. The one I have is a pearly baby blue, but my college roommate bought one at the same time that was a translucent purplish pink, also with the proto star stamp on it. I never thought these were CE discs, based on the CE discs that I'd run across at the time. The plastic seemed very similar to a champion pearly orc that I also had. Do you have any idea if these were in fact CE discs? I happened to get hooked on disc golf at that magical era of CE and 10x plastic...I just wish I knew enough at the time to amass a stockpile of it for later. Thanks.