Ask Dave Dunipace About Innova Discs

[Trey133]

Hey Dave,

I just got some 11x Teebirds at a tournament that are creamy white / opaque. I was wondering if you knew based on the level of opaque if this was the last run of 11x before the 12x started?

Reason I wanted to know was because, if they share more similarities with the 12x Teebirds than regular 11x (the only ones I have are pretty much 100% translucent) then I'd be inclined to continue the hunt for my perfect fairway drivers.

[davei]

Originally Posted by Trey133

Hey Dave,

I just got some 11x Teebirds at a tournament that are creamy white / opaque. I was wondering if you knew based on the level of opaque if this was the last run of 11x before the 12x started?

Reason I wanted to know was because, if they share more similarities with the 12x Teebirds than regular 11x (the only ones I have are pretty much 100% translucent) then I'd be inclined to continue the hunt for my perfect fairway drivers.

Sorry, I can't help you with this.

[ZAMson]

Hey Dave -- today I saw some nice flat 12x-stamp Champ Firebirds. Firstly, hooray!

Is this a new run I was seeing? It didn't look like any other 12x I've seen. I was looking at a small sampling, maybe 12, of these around 173g+ ... all of them shared this characteristic of being closer to the 11x form than the domey run of 12x.

Lots of people would be overjoyed if this is a new, flatter run. 11x Champ FB have become extremely valuable, and the budget option for a flat Firebird is the less durable and less firm Star FB. I'd love to have readily-available flat Champs again.

Thanks!

[davei]

Originally Posted by hydromostatic

Hey Dave -- today I saw some nice flat 12x-stamp Champ Firebirds. Firstly, hooray!

Is this a new run I was seeing? It didn't look like any other 12x I've seen. I was looking at a small sampling, maybe 12, of these around 173g+ ... all of them shared this characteristic of being closer to the 11x form than the domey run of 12x.

Lots of people would be overjoyed if this is a new, flatter run. 11x Champ FB have become extremely valuable, and the budget option for a flat Firebird is the less durable and less firm Star FB. I'd love to have readily-available flat Champs again.

Thanks!

None of these is from a new run. They could possibly be from an older run that was passed over until recently. There is a new run scheduled in the near future and we will do what we can to make them as flat as possible. There are several ways to take an ordinary Firebird and make it flatter also. Of course the danger of this is either taking the disc out of compliance with PDGA specs, over flatting, or warping and ruining the disc. Probably the easiest way to flatten a Firebird is to place it on a flat counter top and fill it with hot water. If this is insufficient, you can add a little weight to the disc by covering it with a pot lid or something. Don't over do it, as you might ruin the disc. Sometimes hot stamping will flatten a top. And the full color process offered on the East coast will definitely flatten it.

I don't really understand why people think flatter is better unless they are throwing overheads.

[mikeP]

Originally Posted by davei

I don't really understand why people think flatter is better unless they are throwing overheads.

I think that the main reason flatter is better is because all of us have learned using flat Firebirds. A flat Firebird is ridiculously overstable and of great utility. No other disc flies (or doesn't fly) quite like it. I think the domier Firebird has more glide and less HSS and tends to overlap with other faster, overstable, long range drivers. The dome also gets bullied by the wind a little more and is less forgiving for ugly forehand OAT.

So the domey Firebird is a fine disc, its just not the same disc we have come to love and trust.

[hawkgammon]

Dave,

I see on the Innova website that you all have the Beast listed as 10/5/-2/2. I seem to recall the glide was a 4 when it originally came out. Have you tweaked the mold? Does it really have more glide than a Valkyrie?

Thanks,

YDGH

[hankdabank]

As of right now, the Full Color process is not being offered on the East Coast.

[davei]

Originally Posted by mikeP

I think that the main reason flatter is better is because all of us have learned using flat Firebirds. A flat Firebird is ridiculously overstable and of great utility. No other disc flies (or doesn't fly) quite like it. I think the domier Firebird has more glide and less HSS and tends to overlap with other faster, overstable, long range drivers. The dome also gets bullied by the wind a little more and is less forgiving for ugly forehand OAT.

So the domey Firebird is a fine disc, its just not the same disc we have come to love and trust.

This is a really good answer. I completely understand from this point of view. Thank you.

[20460chase]

Originally Posted by davei

The Glow Champion Cobra, Glow Champion Groove and Glow Champion Whippet X are all available in the CFR program. I believe the DX Glow San Marino is available for custom stamping. East Coast should already have all these models in stock except the Champion Whippet-X.

The Champion Whippet-X was just produced this week at the West Coast location. Mark/discgolfvalues was gracious enough to put these on his site for Duos in the Desert. Mark does not "get" these discs. The events get the discs and ask Mark to sell their discs on his website for them. The events profit from these CFR sales, not Discgolfvalues.

East Coast NT's and larger events also get access to special models. This year, Vibram Open got a special run of Pro Bosses.

Gracious enough? I think if you ask anyone that runs a DISC GOLF ONLY BRICK AND MORTAR STOREFRONT that isnt allowed the ability to set up other stores ( Which is complete BS ) they would love the opportunity to get discs at PRE RELEASE and WOULD BUY CFRS from other tourneys simply for the extra business.

Marks a good guy and I have done a fair share of business with him, but cmon. Its more than "love for the east coast" how about some love for the people working to keep your product on Top? How about me not losing business ALL THE TIME from someone that has discs days before anyone on the EAST coast will even get them? I like to sell things on Ebay and help other events by selling thier hard to get plastic, especially when its all going for premiums. That would be a welcomed relief from the CFR program thats full of discs that selll slow.

[davei]

Originally Posted by hawkgammon

Dave,

I see on the Innova website that you all have the Beast listed as 10/5/-2/2. I seem to recall the glide was a 4 when it originally came out. Have you tweaked the mold? Does it really have more glide than a Valkyrie?

Thanks,

YDGH

We changed the glide for some reason that might have been related to a change in the rating system. (Using a wider spread of numbers). Or it might have been related to the early tweaking of the Beast from a more Orc like disc.

Regardless, the glide of discs in a vertical orientation comparison between different speed levels, (speed 10 vs speed 9) isn't as accurate as the glide comparisons within the same speed level.

Also, glide is a tricky trait to assign a number to anyway. Many times discs within the same speed level are given higher glide numbers because of their turning characteristic. They don't actually have more "lift", but they do glide and fly better because of the turn which helps orient them in a better aerodynamic position with respect to glide.

Of course, lighter discs have more glide than heavy ones even though the "lift" is the same.

[vadiscgolf]

hi, so is the glow whippet x going to be available from now on or just for the duel in the desert as cfr? I read that the cobra and groove would be, but I wasn't sure about the whippet. Thanks

[vadiscgolf]

I've purchased many cfr discs from discdolfvalues, and I never get a card to fill out for sponsorship rewards. They are tournament fundraisers so they should come with the card right?

[davei]

Originally Posted by vadiscgolf

hi, so is the glow whippet x going to be available from now on or just for the duel in the desert as cfr? I read that the cobra and groove would be, but I wasn't sure about the whippet. Thanks

The Glow Whippet X will be available also.

[davei]

Originally Posted by vadiscgolf

I've purchased many cfr discs from discdolfvalues, and I never get a card to fill out for sponsorship rewards. They are tournament fundraisers so they should come with the card right?

Not all fundraising discs are cfr. The cfr discs should come with a certificate. Discs like R-Wood or R-Pro Bosses are not cfr discs.

[LastBoyScout]

Hi Dave,

I recently found 3 San Marino mold really hard, stiff Aviar Putters. They had a Lavone Wolfe Rocket City Chain Gang stamp on them.

After comparing them to some very old DX Aviars I had, they appear to be slightly taller with a different bottom. When comparing to new 12 X KC Pro Aviars, they have a slightly different bottom half.

I have had a local pro suggest that they are 10 X KC Pro Aviars, but no one has one locally to compare them to.

Were the 10 X Aviars a slightly different mold than the current production runs?


On A Side Note, to dispell a myth for all of you Star Boss fans, we ran a test of the East Coast vs West Coast Star Bosses (Boxed Ratings vs Slashed Ratings stamps) and if you grab a domey star boss, they are both extremely overstable like some suped up hot-rodded whippet-x.

if they are flat, they both slide and flip like the 1st run star stamped champ bosses.

We had 5 of each type boss. 5 East Coast Domey, 5 West Coast Domey, 5 East Coast Flat, 5 West Coast Flat. All were thrown on a flat trajectory and by people who can throw atleast 400 feet with a flat straight shot.

Hope this helps you on your next boss purchase.

[OSUNURSE]

Dave, I know there has been a couple test runs of at least 2 types of material beadless rhynos. First, what do the testers say about them overall, and second are they slated to be made?

I have 2 of the Star material ones and am not sure whether to putt or collect!

[davei]

Originally Posted by LastBoyScout

Hi Dave,

I recently found 3 San Marino mold really hard, stiff Aviar Putters. They had a Lavone Wolfe Rocket City Chain Gang stamp on them.

After comparing them to some very old DX Aviars I had, they appear to be slightly taller with a different bottom. When comparing to new 12 X KC Pro Aviars, they have a slightly different bottom half.

I have had a local pro suggest that they are 10 X KC Pro Aviars, but no one has one locally to compare them to.

Were the 10 X Aviars a slightly different mold than the current production runs?

Periodically the molds are cleaned up, or get new parts, and that could account for the difference. I don't think either of the original Aviar molds says San Marino any more.

[davei]

Originally Posted by OSUNURSE

Dave, I know there has been a couple test runs of at least 2 types of material beadless rhynos. First, what do the testers say about them overall, and second are they slated to be made?

I have 2 of the Star material ones and am not sure whether to putt or collect!

The beadless Rhynos worked as we thought. It was essentially a Rhyno with less low speed over stability. These have not been slated for production.

[dgdave]

Dave,

Are there any plans to run any more Night Shift Bosses? These are the closest thing to a faster Teebird I've ever thrown. My first one is getting seasoned and its even seasoning like a Teebird, not quite as good in the wind, but close.

[dangle]

dgdave - you don't think the Discmania DD is a faster Teebird?

[dgdave]

Originally Posted by dangle

dgdave - you don't think the Discmania DD is a faster Teebird?

Nope. Didn't fight the wind or have the LSS the TB does. The original Teerex was close. I've heard thr PD is close and I've got 4 coming tomorrow to test out. I'll definately report back.

That said, the DD is a great disc that bombs.

[davei]

Originally Posted by dgdave

Dave,

Are there any plans to run any more Night Shift Bosses? These are the closest thing to a faster Teebird I've ever thrown. My first one is getting seasoned and its even seasoning like a Teebird, not quite as good in the wind, but close.

We don't have any plans to run more "Night Shift" Bosses. The new Champion Bosses are being run in the stabilizing formula. The Star Bosses are not. The light Star Bosses are being stabilized by a different process that affects 169g and down. So, if you are looking for stable, try Champion or a lighter Star Boss. If you want mellow, try heavier Star Boss.

Was there a different quality you were looking for?

[dangle]

The DD definitely bombs. I asked because in my opinion the DD holds a line better than a Boss - although I have never had the luxury of throwing a Night Shift Boss. Also, I like the fact that the DD does not finish as hard or skips as much as the Boss.

Isn't the Night Shift Boss supposed to be more HSS than a regular Boss?

[dgdave]

Originally Posted by davei

We don't have any plans to run more "Night Shift" Bosses. The new Champion Bosses are being run in the stabilizing formula. The Star Bosses are not. The light Star Bosses are being stabilized by a different process that affects 169g and down. So, if you are looking for stable, try Champion or a lighter Star Boss. If you want mellow, try heavier Star Boss.

Was there a different quality you were looking for?

They seem much more stable and not overstable, hold a line much longer before hyzering off, and lock into a line. The light Star and heavy DF CHamps all seem to hyzer off early and are hard to flip up with any tailwind. The heavy bosses have a lot more movement to their flight than what I like on golf lines. I like a Teebird type flight. Give it a slight hyzer and it pops to flat for a long time then a predictable fade.

[LastBoyScout]

Originally Posted by dangle

Isn't the Night Shift Boss supposed to be more HSS than a regular Boss?

Domey is where the stability is at in a Boss with domey star being even more overstable.

The flat bosses all want to slide or S somewhat.

I have 4 of each in the bag, 2 domey star/champ and 2 flat star/champ.

[warlocks00]

Just curious why there are no I-dye Star plastic? I've got a lot of customers I think would love to have some dyed Teerex, Destroyers, X-cals, Maxes, ect.

[cduncan]

Hey Dave, does a dome really make a disc more stable? Or does it have something to do with the wing? I prefer flat discs because they feel better in my hand and don't seem to get pushed around in the wind as much. But I have heard a lot of people say that domes make discs stable, but have not noticed it myself. thanks!

[futurecollisions]

Originally Posted by davei

We don't have any plans to run more "Night Shift" Bosses. The new Champion Bosses are being run in the stabilizing formula. The Star Bosses are not. The light Star Bosses are being stabilized by a different process that affects 169g and down. So, if you are looking for stable, try Champion or a lighter Star Boss. If you want mellow, try heavier Star Boss.

Was there a different quality you were looking for?

Dave,

Based on what you're saying here, a 172g star driver would be less stable than a 167g star driver?

[RhynoBoy]

You can't just say, "Flat discs are more/less stable"

Before the Destroyer and other wide wing drivers, the flatter were more "stable" That is why people seek 11x Firebirds which are more flat.

With new high speed discs, the domier ones are more "stable." This is true in destroyers, x cals and so on.

Not all lighter 167g Star plastic is more stable, just on the Bosses because of how they were molded/made.

[davei]

Originally Posted by warlocks00

Just curious why there are no I-dye Star plastic? I've got a lot of customers I think would love to have some dyed Teerex, Destroyers, X-cals, Maxes, ect.

It was decided by our sales force, that the I-dye worked better and looked more vibrant on Champion as opposed to Star.