Ask Hero about Discraft ( or anything else)

[patpitts]

Just thought I'd ask.

[michaeljo]

worth the question though

[patpitts]

You know I was just jokin?

[michaeljo]

yea i figured that, i would think you have quite a stash of your own

[mikeP]

Here is a question for you Hero...

Why does the FLX plastic make the mold more overstable. Such as the FLX XL's and the FLX Flash that you threw? And is this fact what is keeping more discs from coming out in the FLX plastic?

I have yet to hear of a FLX disc being equal or less stable than it's ESP brother. Except maybe the Buzzz. But a FLX Wasp does sound like a good compliment to a ESP Wasp!!!

I think that there are several things that influence this. First of all, I think that FLX plastic shrinks more as it cools than most other plastics. I think that this is the reason most FLX discs come out flat and feel thin in the hand rather than meaty. I also think that FLX plastic is FAST. Although it may feel grippy on your skin when you grab into it, FLX plastic has very little surface friction and slips through the air without much resistance. Surface texture can hold a stable disc on a line longer. This is why FLX discs fall off rather quickly after losing speed. The FLX Surge comes out of my hand as fast as anything, but unfortunately it comes out of its glide early.

[my_hero]

Why does the FLX plastic make the mold more overstable. Such as the FLX XL's and the FLX Flash that you threw? And is this fact what is keeping more discs from coming out in the FLX plastic?

That FLX Flash must have been missed stamped; it was more like a Flick/Pred. The first run FLX XL's were stable pigs, but i recently got an email saying Discraft fixed that problem and now they are flying like XL's.

I'm no scientist so i can't really say for sure why certain plastics make discs more or less stable. This reminds me of a conversation i had with Barry though. I asked him why Pro-D (DX) discs seem to fly further than elite-Z (champion) discs. His answer was b/c in flight the Pro-D type plastic flattens out more (due to all of the forces applied) than the elite-Z type plastics. He went on to say that this flattening helps the disc achieve better glide/understability/distance. Maybe the FLX stuff doesn't flatten as much as the Z stuff which doesn't flatten as much as the Pro-D.

To add to what Discspeed posted, maybe the surface friction is what flattens these discs. Who knows?

[DOC65]

Interesting reasons for the stability question. I hadn't heard of the DX deformation idea before. I was always inclined to think it was due to them getting beat and therefor having increased turbulence similar to what happen to the early smooth rubber golf balls. They found that they flew farther once they were beat in and had plenty of scars. And then one guy thought less start this process right out of the mold and so golf ball dimples were born.

Look me up when you get some of the new XL's in your bag. I'll have to give those a test flight.

[perica]

any chance that the flick will be coming in flx? i would love to see a 150 flick in that plastic. the Z skips super far and one that would stick would be nice.

bump

[vwkeepontruckin]

bump

It skips because it still has spin when the stability brings it left/right versus loss of spin which entails natural fade. I don't think different plastic is going to change this. And on a high spike line, it may actually bounce more.

[citysmasher]

My FLX Pred skips like a Flick.

[citysmasher]

That FLX Flash must have been missed stamped; it was more like a Flick/Pred. The first run FLX XL's were stable pigs, but i recently got an email saying Discraft fixed that problem and now they are flying like XL's.

I'm no scientist so i can't really say for sure why certain plastics make discs more or less stable. This reminds me of a conversation i had with Barry though. I asked him why Pro-D (DX) discs seem to fly further than elite-Z (champion) discs. His answer was b/c in flight the Pro-D type plastic flattens out more (due to all of the forces applied) than the elite-Z type plastics. He went on to say that this flattening helps the disc achieve better glide/understability/distance. Maybe the FLX stuff doesn't flatten as much as the Z stuff which doesn't flatten as much as the Pro-D.

To add to what Discspeed posted, maybe the surface friction is what flattens these discs. Who knows?

Great post.

I have thought the same thing. This still does not explain why the old really strong and stiff (D) DX would glide like mad also. I think most of the improved performance in cheap plastic is how poorly it molds. The edges are all rounded off and smooth directly out of the mold compared to the premium plastics. As the premium discs wear sufficiently, they start to fly very similarly to the DX (D) plastics.

The FLX disc are "skinny". Look at the Predator from the side and compare the Z to the FLX. The FLX Pred is nearly 1/4" thinner if both are set on a table. This lower profile creates less drag and more speed.

The Z Flash for example is super fast because of its thinner profile compared to the ESP, but the ESP is more predictable. I have Z Flash that is as fast as a Destroyer.

[vwkeepontruckin]

Great post.

I have thought the same thing. This still does not explain why the old really strong and stiff (D) DX would glide like mad also. I think most of the improved performance in cheap plastic is how poorly it molds. The edges are all rounded off and smooth directly out of the mold compared to the premium plastics. As the premium discs wear sufficiently, they start to fly very similarly to the DX (D) plastics.

The FLX disc are "skinny". Look at the Predator from the side and compare the Z to the FLX. The FLX Pred is nearly 1/4" thinner if both are set on a table. This lower profile creates less drag and more speed.

The Z Flash for example is super fast because of its thinner profile compared to the ESP, but the ESP is more predictable. I have Z Flash that is as fast as a Destroyer.

Actually, when I've buffed flashing off Inferno's, the disc is moving at much higher RPMs than humans can produce, and in this exagerated state, its super clear that this "flattening" raises the parting line higher actually making a disc MORE OVERSTABLE.

DX type plastic goes farther b/c of surface friction which can help reduce drag and increase lift/glide. Thus dimples.

Oh, and the cheap stuff actually molds much much better...and its cheaper too! (For manufacturors that is)

[citysmasher]

Oh, and the cheap stuff actually molds much much better...and its cheaper too! (For manufacturors that is)

It might be "easier" to mold, but the new plastics are more "accurate". The disc comes out the mold with much more definition, especially around the nose section, wing bead and notch.

I have added surface texture to premium plastic discs, and as far as I could see it did absolutely nothing to the flight.

[vwkeepontruckin]

It might be "easier" to mold, but the new plastics are more "accurate". The disc comes out the mold with much more definition, especially around the nose section, wing bead and notch

I mean no offense, but what are you basing this on? Higher end plastic usually needs to be packed out more and flashes more, but I wouldn't make the claim that lower end plastic doesn't fill the part...we push more in until it does!

[michaeljo]

i am thinking boro knows what he is talking about on this one

[paul]

What's the best disc Discraft makes?

[mikeP]

What's the best disc Discraft makes?

I started out throwing more Innova, so I am a bit biased. When I started trying out Discraft I really loved Rocs, Firebirds, and Teebirds. Immediately I liked the Buzz better than the Roc. It was straighter, less flippy, better plastic, and went further on a line drive golf shot than the Roc. I've thrown other people's Rocs for fun since and have played many rounds with some of the best Roc throwers on Earth and I've got to tell you, the Buzz is more versatile and holds a better line.

The Predator is to the Firebird what the Buzz is to the Roc; A bit faster with more glide. It took me a little longer to let go of my beloved Firechicken (the one I retired had 2 aces), but playing on a course with a lot of 340-360' hyzer shots over water and road taught me that the Predator was a little more effortless while still having impeccable stability.

The Teebird is still the best disc for straight shots with a hyzer finish I've found, so its still in the bag.

So there's my opinion. The Buzz and the Predator are Discraft's two best discs.

[jmc2442]

1. BUZZ - would stomp a Roc's bootay in a back alley brawl
2. SURGE - so so predictable for stable driver

buzz is the best midrange made, the end. If you love a Roc and cant part with it, that is because you've never given a Buzzz the true chance it deserves.

Surge - throw it flat and controlled and watch what happens.

The Teebird is still the best disc for straight shots with a hyzer finish I've found, so its still in the bag.

did you try a Gateway Assassin as of yet?
... If you love the teebird that much try one of these.
My review on the assassin thread, "a teebird on the clear". Just my --> sense

[my_hero]

OverStable = Predator
Stable(straight) = Surge
UnderStable = Flash
Mid Range = Buzzz
Putter = Pro-D Challenger (i prefer the swirl APX but the masses use the Challenger or Magnet)

[citysmasher]

i am thinking boro knows what he is talking about on this one

If he is saying DX and D mold like ESP, then maybe we are having a misunderstanding. Maybe what I am describing is not actually the molding but the shrinkage that occurs after the disc is removed from the mold. Low end plastics lose there definition, that is obvious.

Compare a DX Big Bead Aviar to a Star BB. The bead on the Star disc is huge and well defined were the DX will have a much less defined bead, yet they both come out of the same mold. Look the wing of a D Crush compared to an ESP Crush. The ESP will be so sharp it will nearly cut your finger, the D will be rounded and dull.

Feel free to ask Dave Dunipace. He is forever explaining plastic shrinkage variation, especially for Rocs!!!

Lastly, look at FLX plastic. It REALLY shrinks out the mold. The disc loses an incredible amount of its cross section compared to ESP or Z plastic. It makes thje disc "skinny". I prefer the white ESP plastic for the same reason, it is thinner as seen from the side.

[my_hero]

bump

Mark,

Discraft is a little precautious in answering questions about future projects. The biggest reason is if the say "We are going to run a Flick in ESP", and the plastic/mold combo fails or doesnt meet their expectations then all they did was get everybody excited for nothing.

[mikeP]

1. BUZZ - would stomp a Roc's bootay in a back alley brawl
2. SURGE - so so predictable for stable driver

buzz is the best midrange made, the end. If you love a Roc and cant part with it, that is because you've never given a Buzzz the true chance it deserves.

Surge - throw it flat and controlled and watch what happens.

did you try a Gateway Assassin as of yet?
... If you love the teebird that much try one of these.
My review on the assassin thread, "a teebird on the clear". Just my --> sense

I will try the Assasin, but I really don't like the plastic too much, so I don't see it cracking my starting lineup. Also, I use the Teebird pretty much as an overstable midrange, or a straight mid into wind. I don't think the Assassin will be that overstable.

[JHBlader86]

The Assassin is not for headwinds so dont throw into it. But when I experimented with Discraft discs I found the ESP and Z Surge to be awesome flyers, as well as the Z Buzzz and Soft Magnet. I enjoyed the FLX Buzzz as well, and while I dont throw the Buzzz anymore, or Discraft as I prefer Gateway discs if I had to go on record and choose the best midrange on the market it would be the Buzzz. The only reason I dont throw the Buzzz anymore is that if I threw it on the wrong line it would hold it forever, but all in all the best mid!

[Big E]

I made the switch to Discraft about a year ago I thwo the following:

Firebird>> Flick and Predator ( depending on the skip I want)

Wraith>> ESP Avenger

Teebird>> Esp Avenger

Cheetah>>> Have not found anything yet

never had anything like it>>SS Avenger

Gator>>> Drone

Roc >>> Buzz

Beat flat top roc>>>> ESP Comet

Aviar X>>>> Pro D Challenger

[Big E]

One more thing I threw the FLX Surge for about 6 months and loved it then it started to get flippy so I made the move to the ESP Avenger! I went through about 3 flx surges I think

[my_hero]

Wraith>> ESP Avenger

Did you mean Wraith = Surge?

If not, the ADGA club has lots of ESP Avengers with cool art for you to choose from.

[junnila]

Magnet, no question about it.

[Big E]

I think the wraith is in between the flash and avenger is for me. I use the flash on days when it is not windy and the avenger when it is windy. But lately I use the esp avenger a lot.

[vwkeepontruckin]

If he is saying DX and D mold like ESP, then maybe we are having a misunderstanding. Maybe what I am describing is not actually the molding but the shrinkage that occurs after the disc is removed from the mold. Low end plastics lose there definition, that is obvious.

Compare a DX Big Bead Aviar to a Star BB. The bead on the Star disc is huge and well defined were the DX will have a much less defined bead, yet they both come out of the same mold. Look the wing of a D Crush compared to an ESP Crush. The ESP will be so sharp it will nearly cut your finger, the D will be rounded and dull.

Feel free to ask Dave Dunipace. He is forever explaining plastic shrinkage variation, especially for Rocs!!!

Lastly, look at FLX plastic. It REALLY shrinks out the mold. The disc loses an incredible amount of its cross section compared to ESP or Z plastic. It makes thje disc "skinny". I prefer the white ESP plastic for the same reason, it is thinner as seen from the side.

Why would I go ask Dave D when I have worked in a frisbee factory. Plastic shrinkage has NO effect on how well the mold is packed out though. How the wing and nose are shaped, yes. But not on how well the mold is "filled". Just the dome and how concave/convex the wing gets. Your Aviar example leads me to wonder what they are doing.

[citysmasher]

Why would I go ask Dave D when I have worked in a frisbee factory. Plastic shrinkage has NO effect on how well the mold is packed out though.

HAHAHAHAHAHA...