PDGA Sanctioned Leagues

[ninafofitre]

Ah Snap It's on the website now so it must be true!

I figure you guys elected me to the board to do something so here's my shot. I'm actually trying to turn the PDGA upside down. The PDGA in the past has really only been useful to tournament players. Well the fact of the matter is, there are a lot of players that never play tournaments and there are tons of players that show up to the weekly action at their local course. So I'm trying to reach out to more of the recreational players and introduce the PDGA and the ratings system to them. At the same time provide a service for tournament players to build their own PDGA player rating.

So lets get into some of the details, This is a forum where I will be answering your questions and concerns.



· Start of the leagues in March after daylight savings time. (March, 11, 2012)
· A league will run from a minimum of 6 to a maximum 12 week (Spring, Summer, Fall )
· Leagues will pay the PDGA a $25 sanctioning fee for each season and a $1 per player, per week fee. (With a 50/50 split of $1 fees between League & PDGA)
· All players will need to provide a first and last name. They also need to provide a PDGA number if applicable.

The 50/50 split is important to make sure the leagues get money to invest back into their leagues for course improvements, or it can be used for payouts, local charities, your club fundraising, etc. it's up to you. Once the machine is rolling the PDGA will give back a percentage of it's take in providing rewards for leagues (free memberships to give away, PDGAShop.com coupons, disc golf swag etc.)



· Format will initially be limited to singles and scratch scoring.
· Each week all divisions will play the same exact course layout.
· Each nights of the league will be scored like a 1 round tournament.
. PDGA will not determine entry fees or payout structures.
· Payouts will not be reported to or tracked by PDGA.

Each town has their unique action and the size of purse everyone agrees to play with so we are NOT going to meddle with what you want to charge for your local play. It can be free for all we care, and with that said you can payout any way you want also. We can suggest a buy in format, but it's up to what you and your players want to do.



· Discounted PDGA Memberships will be available for players signing up for the PDGA through their leagues with promo codes; each league will have its own unique promo code.

Discounted PDGA Memberships for league members will happen eventually, it may not be available in the initial Spring season roll out phase. The new website has priorities to our IT staff.


The big question of course is what about beer? This rule has not been officially passed yet so this is why it's in red, but I am presenting the case that the PDGA alcohol rule for leagues be relaxed.
Alcohol rules will be based on local park or city/state laws for consumption of alcohol in the park

Can you imagine being in a Bowling, Billards, or Softball league without having a pop or two. Right now I'm guessing there will probably be a waiver situation that you sign, and the players will be responsible for their own behavior or actions.

Feel free to respond on here with your questions and concerns and I will be happy to attempt to answer your question. There are still a few details in the works but most of the fine details are worked out.


Q & A

Q:
With the $25 sanctioning fee do you get 12 weeks of league insurance?
A:
YES, PDGA League sanctioning includes insurance coverage under the PDGA tour policy.

Q:
How will scores be submitted to the PDGA?
A:
We have developed a simpler version of the PDGA TD Report to upload the scores. The Excel spread sheet provided to League Directors will also have a tracking system where you can track your week to week performance, points standings etc. All the LD's will need to do is input the names, PDGA#, & scores, and the power of Excel will take care of the rest.

[cgkdisc]

PDGA will not determine entry fees or payout structures.
Payouts will not be reported to or tracked by PDGA.

However, any divisions the League Director decides to offer must follow the official PDGA division guidelines with the same age or ratings breaks. Players will earn PDGA points based on their final standings in the division(s) they entered during league. Yes, each week players may choose to compete in a different division that they qualify for but will not be required to move up for any remaining league nights after a PDGA ratings update if their rating increases to where they must enter a higher division in other PDGA events.

[krupicka]

So if the PDGA is not dictating payout structures, I don't see any reason why a league couldn't payout based on a handicapped based system and report raw scores to the PDGA.

[warwickdan]

hey Kevin.....

great news.....love what you've come up with.....

im seriously considering running a league on my new course on my new oasis literally across the street from the warwick course. because my property is obviously private property, and because we've already started microbreweing on site, alcohol consumption during play will be permitted.

here's a question:

how will scores be submitted to the pdga? will there be some sort of "internet portal" where TD's can simply input scores, as opposed to the current tedious submission process we have to go thru with normal pdga events?

thanks.....

Dan Doyle

[ninafofitre]

Originally Posted by warwickdan

here's a question:

how will scores be submitted to the pdga? will there be some sort of "internet portal" where TD's can simply input scores, as opposed to the current tedious submission process we have to go thru with normal pdga events?

thanks.....

Dan Doyle

Dan we are in the process of putting together a more simple TD report to upload the scores. The spread sheet provided to League Directors will also have a tracking system where you can track your week to week performance, points standings etc. All the LD will need to do is input the scores once and the power of Excel will take care of the rest.

[cgkdisc]

That's correct. However, I'm not convinced that raw scores thrown in handicapped play are as high of "quality" for ratings purposes as those thrown in a scratch score format. There's more incentive to increase your scores even higher when you're having a bad round to boost your handicap. Controls to prevent score padding in handicap leagues are typically not implemented or done well other than the DGU approach.

[krupicka]

The same argument goes for league rounds vs tournament rounds. Two things that keep tournament players from manipulating their ratings is cost per round and not precise enough information on what score is going to be a certain rating. With local league play, the cost per round can be only a buck and playing the same course every week will allow players to better gauge what it takes to depress their rating without tripping the safeguards built into the rating system.

[cgkdisc]

There are various dynamics that can come into play for leagues versus tournaments, some which might lead to increases in ratings for some and decreases for others. But ratings are a zero sum game each round where the average rating of the propagators equals the average of the round ratings produced each week. So overall, leagues cannot increase nor decrease the amount of ratings points injected into the ratings pool for all PDGA members. There will also be a longer delay for players seeing the impact of their league rounds on their official rating compared to most tournaments since it may take around 4 months from the first week a 12-wk league starts to seeing those first week rounds in their official rating.

[16670]

so if we run "league" 2 times a week and have 30 people show up everytime what do we as a club get for our $1,560 that the pdga gets for the year.thats after the "split with the club"?

[davidsauls]

This may be a great success and very much worth the effort. Yet, it feels to me like it will cheapen the ratings. Were I to play league play, I don't know if it would inflate my rating (playing my home course, where I've played hundreds of rounds) or deflate it (due to my tendency to try new discs and new shots in local play, especially when I'm already playing poorly). Regardless, current ratings are based on my tournament play, which is the highest and most serious level of play for me. Ratings based on local play, even if they end up similar, won't seem the same.

Which isn't to say sanctioned leagues is a bad idea. But even if wildly successful, this is a drawback I'll lament.

[warwickdan]

i often wonder why so many players put what seems like such an over-emphasis on their rating.

i recognize that the ratings system is still fairly new and will continue to evolve over time. it doesnt matter much to me other than as a source of curiousity and pride what my rating is. i dont play for my rating - it is simply a statistical snapshot of my performance that i prefer to measure in terms of my enjoyment, the competition, and the social aspects.

other than events like last year's USDGC, what difference does it make if one's rating is anywhere within a 20 or 30 or 40 point range? no one is getting rewarded or penalized as a result of their rating, are they? in other words, even if one's rating were to be "tainted" because league rounds were utilized in its computation, does this really matter in the grand scheme of our participation in this great game?

im all for allowing league results to be used for ratings purposes.

[krupicka]

Originally Posted by warwickdan

other than events like last year's USDGC, what difference does it make if one's rating is anywhere within a 20 or 30 or 40 point range? no one is getting rewarded or penalized as a result of their rating, are they? in other words, even if one's rating were to be "tainted" because league rounds were utilized in its computation, does this really matter in the grand scheme of our participation in this great game?

Having a depressed rating doesn't mean much if you are 960+. For those that play in the various amateur levels, it can change which divisions you qualify for. My rating flip/flops over one of the ratings lines. If it is above, I don't win anything. If it is below, I generally will take something home. Artificially depressing my rating using league play could be advantageous if I want to bring home more plastic. I don't personally plan on doing this, but it would be easy enough to do.

Much like recent rounds are double weighted, league rounds should be half-weighted IMO.

[davidsauls]

Originally Posted by warwickdan

i often wonder why so many players put what seems like such an over-emphasis on their rating.

i recognize that the ratings system is still fairly new and will continue to evolve over time. it doesnt matter much to me other than as a source of curiousity and pride what my rating is. i dont play for my rating - it is simply a statistical snapshot of my performance that i prefer to measure in terms of my enjoyment, the competition, and the social aspects.

other than events like last year's USDGC, what difference does it make if one's rating is anywhere within a 20 or 30 or 40 point range? no one is getting rewarded or penalized as a result of their rating, are they? in other words, even if one's rating were to be "tainted" because league rounds were utilized in its computation, does this really matter in the grand scheme of our participation in this great game?

im all for allowing league results to be used for ratings purposes.

I don't play for my ratings either. I think it's cool and interesting as a summary of my tournament performances. I find it less so as a composite of my tournament and local league performances. That's all.

[jconnell]

Originally Posted by davidsauls

This may be a great success and very much worth the effort. Yet, it feels to me like it will cheapen the ratings. Were I to play league play, I don't know if it would inflate my rating (playing my home course, where I've played hundreds of rounds) or deflate it (due to my tendency to try new discs and new shots in local play, especially when I'm already playing poorly). Regardless, current ratings are based on my tournament play, which is the highest and most serious level of play for me. Ratings based on local play, even if they end up similar, won't seem the same.

Which isn't to say sanctioned leagues is a bad idea. But even if wildly successful, this is a drawback I'll lament.

I think your concern is really only well founded if all leagues converted to PDGA leagues, and I don't see that as being the case. In which case, if the league is PDGA sanctioned, why wouldn't you simply treat that league in the same manner as a PDGA-sanctioned tournament in terms of your attitude and actions on the course? In other words, if you wouldn't experiment (discs, shots, etc) in a tournament, you wouldn't do it in the league either. And if you want to play a league where experimenting is an option, you can always choose a non-sanctioned league.

[davidsauls]

Personally, my concern is only if I play in a local league that's sanctioned. And it is, to me, a minor drawback---as I stated, this could end up being successful and (otherwise) well worth the effort.

You're correct that I could treat sanctioned league play as seriously as tournament play....except I doubt I actually can bring myself to that point.

Anyway, outside of this....it'll be interesting to watch how this idea plays out. Surely a lot of details to iron out in the first year.

[Rollern]

I would like to agree 100% with comments that we should not focus on rating, just play and enjoy playing, but:

In Sweden where I live, discgolf is increasingly popular, there are many players but competitions are far apart, both in distance and time. The start fields fill up fast and the waiting lists are long.
When registration for national tournaments open, they open in three steps and it is your rating that determine at what step you can register. In this situation, being two rating points above the “line” or two below, determine if you can play or not. Rating IS important!
Upto now the problem has been seen mostly at National level but last year we could also see start fields at regional level that where filled within days.
The opportunity to get rating from local leagues is therefore a god thing and essential for players to improve the rating in order to compete on the “next level”.
However, given the important role of rating to secure a place in the tournaments, I see a potential problem:

Some players tend to DNF bad rounds during tournaments to “rescue” the rating, these local leagues gives increased opportunities for those players to manipulate the rating in their own favor by using the DNF weapon.

Are there any plans on how to deal with possible DNF issues in these local leagues?

[jconnell]

Originally Posted by Rollern

Some players tend to DNF bad rounds during tournaments to “rescue” the rating, these local leagues gives increased opportunities for those players to manipulate the rating in their own favor by using the DNF weapon.

Are there any plans on how to deal with possible DNF issues in these local leagues?

I would hope that the PDGA Competition Manual would still be in effect for PDGA-sanctioned leagues, in which case there is a very simple solution to the intentional DNF or tanking to preserve one's rating: DQ.

Section 3.3 Player Misconduct
A. The PDGA adopts a strict policy of appropriate behavior and comments to the media. Any conduct deemed to be unprofessional is subject to disqualification by the Tournament Director, and may also be subject to further disciplinary actions from the PDGA.

B. Players are expected to behave in a professional and sportsmanlike manner while participating in a PDGA sanctioned event. Actions that are in violation of this conduct include but are not limited to:
(13) Deliberately seeking to manipulate ones player rating through intentional misplay or withdrawal.

[MTL21676]

Hey Kevin,

My questions are in regard to this:

Originally Posted by ninafofitre

· Payouts will not be reported to or tracked by PDGA.[/COLOR]

What advantages does a league have of doing this if this is not the case? Outside of a possible increase in attendance and ability to have rounds rated, I don't see too much without the payouts being tracked. Are points rewarded like standard PDGA Tour points?

And since payouts and such are not reported, does this mean that PDGA rules, including possible PDGA discipline, are in effect.

Thanks in advance

[cgkdisc]

To 16670:
That's a $52 per player fee to the PDGA for 104 rounds if the same 30 players played for 52 weeks. Right now, only 10 PDGA members have at least that many rated rounds in a year. I'm thinking the $2-$3-$4 PDGA fees they paid would exceed $100 let alone a significant cost for their net entry fees and travel costs over league entry fees to play the same number of league rounds.

[cgkdisc]

Originally Posted by ninafofitre
· Payouts will not be reported to or tracked by PDGA

MTL - What advantages does a league have of doing this if this is not the case? Outside of a possible increase in attendance and ability to have rounds rated, I don't see too much without the payouts being tracked. Are points rewarded like standard PDGA Tour points?

The main reason for not tracking league payouts is to allow Ams to accept cash and not have it affect their am status. Ams enter pro divisions in many leagues and sometimes cash. Plus, some leagues pay cash in all divisions so they don't have to deal with merch. If payouts were reported and tracked by the PDGA, Ams who cashed would be converted to Pros and fewer leagues might participate.

Yes, you will earn points for your finish position in league, probably B-tier equivalent.

[MTL21676]

Originally Posted by cgkdisc

The main reason for not tracking league payouts is to allow Ams to accept cash and not have it affect their am status. Ams enter pro divisions in many leagues and sometimes cash. Plus, some leagues pay cash in all divisions so they don't have to deal with merch. If payouts were reported and tracked by the PDGA, Ams who cashed would be converted to Pros and fewer leagues might participate.

Yes, you will earn points for your finish position in league, probably B-tier equivalent.

Intersting. Thanks for the info. That makes a lot of sense.

[bdfield]

I have a couple of questions, first off, you stated there will be divisions within the league format. I assume you can play MA1, MA2, MA3, etc.? Since my player rating allows for me to play MA3 in tournaments I generally play within that division, but I can also play Advanced Masters. Technically I can gain points in ADV. Masters within my league, and REC in tournaments, correct?

Secondly, is there a minimum amount of PDGA members required to constitute a sanctioned league? In our league there are only 3 players who are members of the PDGA, with others who occasionally play in one or two sanctioned tournaments, which leads me to my next question:

will non-members who participate in a sanctioned league receive player ratings? if so, and they play in a PDGA event, will their rating dictate the division they play in? If a non-member carries a 954 league rating and plays in a C tier, will they be limited to only playing Advanced or Open?

[ERicJ]

Originally Posted by cgkdisc

Yes, you will earn points for your finish position in league, probably B-tier equivalent.

Any update or final word on the point values tier level?

[cgkdisc]

You'll need a minimum of 5 PDGA members with established ratings to run a PDGA league since ratings will have to be produced each league night.

Nonmembers will receive ratings that are not published until they join. TDs for league and events in the area will get info from the PDGA indicating the lowest Am division a member can enter but not their specific hidden rating (at least that's supposed to be how it works).

[bdfield]

since leagues can run from 6 to 12 weeks long, can the league establish it's own start and end week? or will the pdga mandate starting weeks?

[bdfield]

Originally Posted by cgkdisc

You'll need a minimum of 5 PDGA members with established ratings to run a PDGA league since ratings will have to be produced each league night.

so if a league/club doesn't have 5 PDGA members with established ratings playing each week, then essentially the league can not be sanctioned? What if the course has an established SSA? of course, it's impossible to find this information since the PDGA has removed the SSA resource from it's site.

Based on this information my weekly league can't be sanctioned since we will not have enough "PDGA" members, which kind of flies in the face of the objective to entice those players who play local leagues but not tournaments to get involved with the PDGA, don't you think?

[cgkdisc]

There will be quarterly periods 13 weeks long and your league fits in that time window. So there's flexibility on when a 6-week league can start but not much for 12-week leagues.

[ninafofitre]

Chuck, I appreciate you answering the questions today, Courtney's Grandmother passed monday and we laid her to rest today, but I am here now and will be answering as many questions as possible. If I can edit my original post I will also be adding some of the Frequently asked questions on the first post and just make it a running Q&A Forum.

McCoy

[MTL21676]

Ok so I've really thought about this today. I want to stress these opinions are mine and not of North Carolina Disc Golf.

I really supported Kevin in the BOD election for this idea alone. It's a fantastic one. However, I'm not very pleased with the current proposal.

There are four point of views in this. The PDGA, the player, the club and the TD.

I see the PDGA really coming out good in this. More revenue, more exposure, a lot more of the things they want. The only downside I see for them is more work for the staff due to more sanctioning agreements and such to process.

The clubs also should like this. This ideally will increase attendance at events and no matter if your club does cash or merch, you come out ahead. In merch payouts, the financial aspect of coming out better is simple to understand with larger fields. With cash payouts, if you have more people, then you get more $1 fees.

However, I really don't see much of any advantage for a player or the TD.

The player really suffers due to the $25 per week fee (I really don't like this. I think it should be 25 - 50 for an entire series of events). This fee has to come from somewhere and it certainly will come from players' pockets. Either their payout suffers or their entry fees increase. It's that simple.

Think about it this way. Your club charges $10 a head and has one division for league night. You average 40 people. The club takes $1 a head out for the club. That's $360 of payout. In this structure, the payout would be $25 less AND the club would lose $20 of revenue since half of that dollar fee is now going to the PDGA. If you add in the same $1 structure in this mix, now payout is $65 less and the club only comes out $20 more than they were before.

The TD really suffers as well. Now they have TD reports to complete, online scoring to post and things like that. I know that in our summer league in Raleigh, points are generally updated a few days after the tournament. No one really cares because as long as it is done by the next week, it really doesn't matter. However you throw the aspect of ratings in the mix and now scores really need to be up quickly because players are chomping at the bit to see those.

You may ask how that is different than your standard event but it really is. When I run a PDGA event I have the luxury of the weekend to complete this and generally finish our rounds by 5 - 6PM. Leagues won't start until then so now I am up at 9:00 posting scores when I have to get up and work the next morning and possibly losing that little time with my family I have that night.

Overall I think this is a great idea, however I think the aspects of it are a little off. The $25 per week fee, in my opinion, will turn away many clubs from doing this. This needs to be seriously lowered to a flat fee for a series or a minimal per player fee. And this adds a lot of work for a TD which I imagine will turn even more people off.

I enjoy running PDGA events - but I will not run a league. I can't imagine all that time and effort each week - 2 to 3 times a year is enough for me. And I'm 28 and single. (For the record, I don't run local league play now, so this is not like I'm saying I would not use this program for my league).

[jconnell]

Originally Posted by MTL21676

The player really suffers due to the $25 per week fee (I really don't like this. I think it should be 25 - 50 for an entire series of events). This fee has to come from somewhere and it certainly will come from players' pockets. Either their payout suffers or their entry fees increase. It's that simple.

The $25 IS a one-time per league fee. Basically a sanctioning fee no different than $50 for C-tier, $75 for B-tier, etc that we pay for tournaments. It's not an weekly thing nor is it an individual player thing, it's paid once to register the 6-12 week league with the PDGA.

Re-reading Kevin's original post, I can see where you might get the idea that the $25 is per week, but it's simply poorly worded on his part. This is effectively a 12 week long tournament, which costs $25 to sanction.