Hudson Mills Pay to Play: Some Answers

[terrycalhoun]

Last week, Bill Gilbert, Mark Piotrowski, Scott White, and I met with Kim Jarvis and Jerry St. Cyr, of the Hudson Mills Metropark staff.

Kim is the director of Hudson Mills and was both lower on that totem pole and a vigorous advocate for disc golf in the park when the Original Course (1994) and the Monster Course (1998) were built. She had great things to say about working with Gunars Nollendorf, Steve Peck, and other a3disc members during and after that time.

Jerry is the administrator who is responsible for the management of disc golf in the park.

The park’s perspective is that a wonderful service has been provided for disc golfers, above and beyond the other functions of the park, and that having been established, it is time for disc golf to begin producing a revenue stream back to the Metroparks, which is, like other park systems in Michigan, under considerable financial stress.

Here is a summary of some of the more pertinent stuff we found out, noting this is from my memory. Bill, Mark, and Scott may have more to add. If you have more questions, they may stimulate recall of something I forgot to list here.

They did not want to surprise us: The park made overtures to a3disc for earlier discussion of this, but we misunderstood the intent of the overtures and thus did not adequately and timely respond.

The course will go pay to play on January 1, 2008 or as soon thereafter as they can get the equipment they need, operating, and the records they need to keep, ready.

It is a pilot program in 2008 for all of the metroparks. If successful, a single disc golf annual pass will in future years include access to all of the metroparks disc golf courses.

The park will not begin charging for daily play until the annual pass procedure is ready to go, and vice versa.
They are not ready now to sell annual passes.

The daily fee will be $2 and there will be a plastic wristband involved, with colors rotating from day to day to avoid re-use.

The annual fee will be $50 and involve a photograph of the disc golfer embedded in a bag tag to be hung prominently on their disc golf bag.

There will be numbers associated with the annual passes, and the park is working to ensure, if possible, that players will be able to keep their Hudson Mills annual pass number for 2008 into future years.

There will be signage on the courses directing daily players to go to the office to purchase the daily pass, and additional staff to support that clerical function.

There will be on-course staff looking for passes, but not an official police presence until after the other staff are in a specific situation where disc golfers on the course are not cooperating with the non-police staff.

The park understands the need for vigorous enforcement to maintain the value of having paid fees for those who do so.
The new scorecards will, in fact, include the park’s phone number so that players who have paid can call in and report scofflaws from out on the course.

The funds, in fact all of the park’s revenues, go into a Metroparks systemwide general account and there is no guarantee that any revenues will go into the course, or even into Hudson Mills, for that matter.

The park will work with tournament TDs to ensure the easiest and smoothest process for issuing daily passes that are needed for events.

Some of the not-so-pertinent information we learned includes:

The park is willing to let us put the Campground Course back in once in a while as a temporary course for majors events, if we would like to.

The park is interested in our holding an event or two on the ball golf course (yes, with carts) in the off season some time during 2008, if we would like to.

[janttila]

Hey Terry, was there any discussion regarding discounts for A3 league members, family package deals, etc.? Thanks

[davidbihl]

It is apparent that the parks are hurting, the whole state is hurting financially, but I will be curious to see if they get a Net gain or a net loss by charging more to play the course. I would imagine a net gain, I know I will pay for a pass, what about others.

[davidbihl]

It is going to cost me twice as much to drive to the course as it used to in GAS!

[davidbihl]

It is going to cost me twice as much to drive to the course as it used to in GAS! )Thanx G. Bush

[rob9128]

I think they'll end up with a net gain. My guess is a lot of people will attempt to recoup their loss by not joining A3DISC.

[kwilliamson]

I want to know if they are ready for April when 200 people show up for the one disc challenge and they all want to get season passes. Are they prepared to have a photo booth set up. I guess after the first year if they keep the same photo tags for people then the undertaking will be smaller but I don't see them being ready early next year to make this run efficiently.

I also want to know if the campground course and ball golf course ideas were something they come up with to feel like they are giving back to us, or something we asked for.

[terrycalhoun]

We did examine all aspects of various discounts, but there was no budging. The first thing they made clear to us was that it was set, it was experimental, and nothing would change regarding the fee schedules in 2008.

The park clearly is offering an annual pass primarily as a nice thing to do for those who play a lot and can use it to save money. I am certain that was their intent, as they were surprised when I mentioned that the annual pass might be attractive to some as purely a Hudson Mills bag tag.

They are relying on people to decide for themselves whether or not it is worth it. I suspect that many people, like myself, who do not go there often enough to justify it as savings, will get one just to have the bag tag.

We'll see what the impact on a3disc memberships is. I'm hoping it's not bad. If it is, we will probably have to look at adjusting what club membership means for 2009.

On the other hand, although the summer league is great, I'm thinking that it is, dollarwise, an overall loss for the club, given the disc, the shirt, the mini, and prizes. And, of course, given all that members get back for their dues, the club dues are really low, so maybe it won't affect us negatively.

I hope that is the case.

It is interesting, and I think that parks and rec folks all over the country, not to mention local and regional clubs and the PDGA, will be watching to see how this pilot flies.

[terrycalhoun]

I want to know if they are ready for April when 200 people show up for the one disc challenge and they all want to get season passes. . . . I also want to know if the campground course and ball golf course ideas were something they come up with to feel like they are giving back to us, or something we asked for.


Hi, Kevin,

They mentioned the Campground Course on their own. If I remember correctly, that stimulated me to ask about the ball golf course, which I had before, but not gotten a really clear answer to.

I hope that the situation you described actually happens! :) It will be interesting to see how they cope with that. I suspect a lot of us locals will be out there the first day the annual passes are available, so that we can get a low Hudson Mills bag tag number. Maybe that will help.

It is clear that they feel that the park has done a lot for disc golfers (It has.) and that it is not unfair to try to recoup this revenue stream. I am guessing, from my own maybe worthless estimates, based on some numbers we learned, that there may be additional revenue expectations in the range of between $50,000-$100,000 this coming year.

One thing I forgot to mention is that in our discussion of disc golf courses in general, I mentioned that some of the new championship courses are being built with some true Par 4 and Par 5 holes. They said that if we came to them with some hole change suggestions in order to create some on the Monster or Original, they would be open to that discussion.

That certainly has my mind racing with ideas.

They also said that there was no sense in even discussing a permanent third course.

[ck34]

How much volunteer work do players put in at this park or Kensington any more? Since the "money going into the general fund" is the typical way finances in cities/counties seem to be handled, I'm wondering if you can leverage your volunteer efforts in some way so that budget money flows back to the courses where the efforts are made?

[DiscsDiva]

I for one and my family can not afford to play at Hudson Mill. League only is $50.00 and two park sticker $40.00 and two year passes $100.00 that equals $190.00 to play. Sorry time are tuff for everyone not just the park. So I will have to look to play at other local parks.

[rob9128]

[QUOTE]
We did examine all aspects of various discounts, but there was no budging. The first thing they made clear to us was that it was set, it was experimental, and nothing would change regarding the fee schedules in 2008.

The park clearly is offering an annual pass primarily as a nice thing to do for those who play a lot and can use it to save money. [QUOTE]


So in essence, it seems that while the park thinks they have done a lot for disc golf (which they have), they see no value in all that A3 has done over the years in terms of promoting their revenue stream and enhancing it with donations of money and labor. Forgive me if that leaves a really bad taste in my mouth.

[bruce_brakel]

It is apparent that the parks are hurting, the whole state is hurting financially, but I will be curious to see if they get a Net gain or a net loss by charging more to play the course. I would imagine a net gain, I know I will pay for a pass, what about others.

I don't play Hudson Mills often enough to pay for an annual pass. Ditto Kensington and the rest of the metroparks.

I'm not sure I understand why the disc golf course should cost extra to use but the rollerbabe track doesn't and picnic grounds don't and ball fields don't, etc. etc.

[padobber]

I think that people need to stop obsessing about paying a little extra to play these courses. I mean $50? I have felt like $20 a year for all the metroparks was a steal for years. I don't think that people realize how lucky they are to have so many courses that are free besides the cost of entry to the park. Maybe instead of whining about why don't other people have to pay more to, the dg community should embrace this opportunity to become more indispensable as a customer to the metroparks. Hopefully in the future they will see us as a critical part of their revenue stream and be more mindful of the needs of disc golfers when making future decisions.

[janttila]

I think that the fact of the matter is that the money is going into a general funds account and the club is going to have to continue to kick out club funds for course maintanence and improvements. What happens to the course if the club money isn't there to buy new trees to prevent erosion? Will we bee playin in the Huron? But again, I bet the spray parks will bee so so SWEET! When you buy a season pass at a ski resort (even at Mt Brighton) you'll see things like new groomers, half pipes, terrain equipment, etc. Can't wait for the summer of the spary park.

[terrycalhoun]

I saw no disrespect for past volunteer efforts and, in fact, I heard appreciation expressed. They also shared with us that there are others who do volunteer work out there, not just the disc golfers.

The folks who use the soccer fields pay a fee and also contribute donations and volunteer time. There are also fees for the cross-country events, and related volunteer work.

I know it's a hardship for some, and that's a shame. Few who have the means to get to the park, however, lack the means to pay an extra $2 per person to play an entire day's disc golf. Even when I was paying for 6 adults and kids when I visited, that would only have been $12 for a day's competition.

Note that the annual pass is forced upon no one, it is offered by the park as an aid for the most avid players among us. It is easy to see that as an imposed $50 fee, when in fact all that is imposed is the $2 daily fee and the annual pass is offered to those who can save money with it.

Bruce, I don't think it is a question of "should," so much as "where can we get a revenue stream." We should note that right this moment, the Metroparks are designing and creating a brand new course at Kensington Metropark which will replace the Tunnel Course. Perhaps we can think of these dollars as going into the pot of money from which that will be paid?

Also, remember, this *is* an experiment, and it might *not* work out. We'll see. If it does work out and they feel the revenues are worth it, then they will definitely value disc golf more than ever before.

[romine]

Hudson Mills and The Metroparks give southeastern Michigan the best disc golf you can find. If you like disc golf and want it to grow but dont understand why it hasn't, I'll tell you; its because of money. Cold hard cash. Greenbacks.

I am all for the $50 dollar fee to play even if that money goes back to disc golf indirectly. The fee does more than "line The Metroparks pockets." We have great courses like Hudson Mills, The Tunnel, Stoney and Willow because the metroparks put in great effort. The fee will, if nothing else, keep the courses there.

Some of you are angry about the $50 fee. Would you be more angry if The Metroparks said, "times are tight and we have to cut some expenses, starting with our disc golf courses"?

The fee also does some nice things some may not think are so nice. It will cause Hudson Mills and other metropark courses to enforce the fee with a higher policing presence. This will reduce things such as littering, fighting, and vandalism: the very things which give disc golf a bad reputation and prevent it from growing.

So the question is not about $50, its about whether or not you want the sport to grow.

[romine]

Quote "I don't play Hudson Mills often enough to pay for an annual pass. Ditto Kensington and the rest of the metroparks.

I'm not sure I understand why the disc golf course should cost extra to use but the rollerbabe track doesn't and picnic grounds don't and ball fields don't, etc. etc."


The reason the ball fields and "rollerbabe" track dont warrant extra fees is because they dont require the same amount of attention. Particularly from law enforcement. Ive never heard of parents not allowing their children to become involved in baseball because of the bad reputation.

[janttila]

Hi Terry, any word on when the passes will begin to be sold? I'd like to get one as soon as they are available.

[cyferban]

The soonest will probably be 010108 but if they are ready sooner i will try and let everybody who wants to know here and via our email list. I/we will spread the word as soon as they are available.

[janttila]

Thanks Bill! I think it would be advantageous of the park to begin to sell the passes before the gift giving holiday. Just a random thought....

[dischick]

I agree with Josh. The sport will grow with a better group of people- those who are vandalizing and creating problems will simply be weeded out and not want to come there. who pays 50$ to vandalize something? this'll create less problems, and weed out some of the d o u c h e (censored HAHA) bags who comeout there. yeah, its a pain to have to dig more money outta that wallet, but there are so many of you who want to see disc golf become big like ball golf- and those greens fees arent cheap. 50$ for an annual pass is cheap in my opinion. in the next year, you guys should monitor if tehr eis more upkeep to the course, and see if that money is actually going towards the course.

[cyferban]

i just emailed kim jarvis and she said the tentative dates for pay to play is 020108 she did not elaborate on why but when last we talked she told us that they would not start selling them until everything was ready, equipment wise.

Jen you did hear that the money is not being put back into disc golf from these fees but all income goes into the general fund. That doesn't mean that some of this money won't see enhancements on the course.

[bruce_brakel]

Quote "I don't play Hudson Mills often enough to pay for an annual pass. Ditto Kensington and the rest of the metroparks.

I'm not sure I understand why the disc golf course should cost extra to use but the rollerbabe track doesn't and picnic grounds don't and ball fields don't, etc. etc."


The reason the ball fields and "rollerbabe" track dont warrant extra fees is because they dont require the same amount of attention. Particularly from law enforcement. Ive never heard of parents not allowing their children to become involved in baseball because of the bad reputation.

That's not true at all. They have officers patrolling the rollerbabe track all summertime long at Kensington. I never see any park law enforcement on the disc golf course. I think if they were to provide the same law enforcement presence on the disc golf course in the summertime that they provide on the rollerbabe track, you'd see the close to the same levels of bad behavior on each.

[janttila]

I heard that Hockey is very similar to a gate way drug and football for that matter. :D

[z Vaughn z]

I heard that Hockey is very similar to a gate way drug and football for that matter. :D



You are.

[janttila]

No ZV, YOU ARE!

[thetruthxl]

that's funny, joe. I hear that breathing leads to early onset death. Ironic how the one thing we need to live is the thing that kills us. deep.
maybe that should have been on the random thread....