Hudson Mills Pay to Play

[scottcwhite]

$50 annual, $2 Daily. Starts in 2008. $50 payers will have some sort of laminated badge. $2 daily fee will get you a wristband.

This is on top of the $20 annual to get in the park.

Information only, i'm sure opinions will follow... This is information coming directly from them park also, not rumors.

[Mark_Stephens]

Yeah, this is not the first place that I have heard this.

[SarahD]

I am not wearing a wristband, that's for sure. Do I LOOK like someone who wears plastic wristbands????

I can attach it to bag right? Let's consult Lovely Kimberly: Yes, the always delightful Kimberly Jarvis says the wristband can be attached to your bag as long as it's visable. Fine.

These metroparks should discriminate in amount charged between PDGA members (current and non) and litter-crazy casuals. I believe there isn't a single tournament player in the area who hangs off trees until they bend to the ground or can't be bothered to walk the extra thirty feet to deposit their adult Kool-Aid (aka Gatorade) bottles in a trash bin. We should be compensated financially for the respect and trash pick-up skills we bring to the course.

[SarahD]

Maybe with the pay-to-play Hudson Mills be be able to afford to stop being false tricksters and serve 100% Pure Maple Syrup like they advertise instead of 2% 100% Pure Garbage Corn Syrup.

[rob9128]

I do think they should give some consideration to long term, loyal and equity building locals (read club members). Its not so much about the PDGA as the people who have donated their time, trees, baskets, dollars, and sweat equity over the years, not to mention spreading the word about the course which is now deemed a money maker.

So while I'm not opposed in any way to PDGA members getting a break, there are many, many people who are not members of the PDGA, because they don't care about tournaments, who nevertheless are at least as deserving of some consideration.

BTW, I heard the Lacey Inn is instituting wrist bands.

[SarahD]

Fine, I'll attach it to my Dogfish.

Good posting, Rob, I agree with everything you said about many other good, contributing people not being PDGA members who deserve financial recognition. Anyone care to educate dearest Kimberly? She seems to like Scott quite a lot.

[janttila]

My bet is that course improvements will be few and far between with this new pay to play policy. I'd definitely put my $money$ on the seeing brand new SPRAY PARKS!!!!

That seemed to be the overall theme at the metroparks planning meeting last year. I guess since the biggest golfer turnout was at the WCC meeting last winter, they assumed HM would be a great place to pilot this new policy. I love it when a group of people go out to advocate for their passion and instead of positive recognition WE get EXPLOITATION!!! :mad::( :mad::( :mad:

[rob9128]

Kim and the Hudson Mills staff have had a good relationship with A3Disc for a long time (probably since Scott was in elementary school : ) I'm sure something will get worked out to everybody's satisfaction. I'll check with the politicos.

[brookep]

Well it looks like there are a bunch of oppinions on this thread so here's mine

I don't mind paying $50 per year for disc golf. Hudson Mills is a great facility and I want it to stay that way. sure it might decrease the casuals but is that a bad thing? Less litter and vandalism, faster rounds well kept courses. Maby they will bring back the water stations that were so badly treated the park removed them.

What I don't understand is the level of anger and cheap shots being taken at the park and it's employees. I think you guys don't understand how imortant Hudson Mills has been to the evolution of disc golf in Michigan. Because of the parks effort and support of disc golf we have all the courses in our area. Hudson Mills has been the gold standard by which all others are judged. Without The Mills Michigan disc golf would not be what it is today.

And please do all of us a favor and keep personal attacks out of this discussion.

One more thing about maple syrup Hudson Mills itself produces about 5 gallons of syrup a year. The ratio is 40 to 1 that means 200 gallons had to be boiled down to make 5. That syrup goes to park employees and their families. Is that such a bad thing?

Seriously Sara you sound very petty when whining about Maple Syrup. My advice is if you don't like it don't eat it. Simple don't ya think /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif ;)

[wander]

Hi, Brooke -

I, too, think there will be advantages and disadvantages to whatever system they devise. I hope the courses show some improvement but doubt our fees will go anywhere besides paying some cart jockey to patrol the courses.

I bet folks on the board may have a hard time ponying up next time someone suggests we buy some trees and plant them on the courses.

Howabout the Club underwrite members annual pass fee to the tune of $1 per year of club membership....I'd like to take our account balance down that way more than cutting a check to the park for a few thousand as has happened a few times in the past.

And about the syrup, it was a BAD BAD year for maples. Weather just wasn't right for sap. (The maples look sweet this time of year,though.) I hope the next time I talk with folks in the park Office, they continue to act like adults towards us disc golfers, since a few golfers have taken to acting like children towards them.

Joe

[scottcwhite]

One more thing about maple syrup Hudson Mills itself produces about 5 gallons of syrup a year. The ratio is 40 to 1 that means 200 gallons had to be boiled down to make 5. That syrup goes to park employees and their families. Is that such a bad thing?




If they have 5+ gallons of pure maple then why would they serve corn syrup to paying customers?

[pinche]

What does syrup have to do with paying to play a round of disc golf ?

[scottcwhite]

Hudson mills should give syrup to every player who purchases a $50 annual pass



BRILLIANT!

[terrycalhoun]

When October is over and the staff's time calms down, as well as some of us, I hope to be among those who meet with the staff about this.

There are probably a lot of ways that the annual fee can be of mutual benefit. For example, and this is an incomplete idea, if dues-paid a3disc club members, in recognition of the fact that they are not litterers or vandals, could get that annual pass for $30 instead of $50, that might:

* Only cost the park a total of $4,000 in lost revenue if 200 club members took the deal;
* make club membership mean more than just summer league; and
* make the value of club membership higher, and perhaps get us more dues-paying members.

I don't recall anyone terribly unhappy about the daily fee, just the annual pass fee. I look forward to finding out how many annual passes the projected budget for the Mills anticipates, among other things.

Other options that might not hurt the Mills all that much might include allowing annual pass holders to bring a guest when they play.

[DSproAVIAR]

Seriously Sara you sound very petty when whining about Maple Syrup. My advice is if you don't like it don't eat it. Simple don't ya think /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif ;)



If you are not the type of person that wears a plastic wristband, don't. Meaning no one is forcing you to come out and enjoy the finest 2-course DG facility in Michigan for a reasonable fee of $.15 per round. Don't, and quit complaining.

[circlek13783]

As this is the pilot program, I would really like to see an annual pass be a "universal" pass to all of the Metroparks (just like the current annual parking pass). Other than that, everything else is just icing, although some sort of discount for league members would be nice.

[cyferban]

Yes Terry we are hoping you will come with us when we set up the meeting to discuss the fees. You are a speaker and won't offend anyone when in discussions of this importance.

Personally i think the $50 annual is to high, how am I to pay for all of my family to play at HM. $150 for me plus the $40 for 2 annual gate passes plus the $75 for A3 membership ($265) to play disc golf at HM, which of course doesn't include the entry fees to Rolling.
I would love to see a reduced annual fee or a reduced annual fee for A3 membership, or a reduced family plan fee. Even some combination of these ideas would work for me.

I am not agaisnt pay to play just the high annual fee.

These are my thoughts

[Roosta]

if it is universal i have no problem with $50 for the year. it is the future of our sport, and it was going to happen sometime.

[discow]

A family fee plan definitely makes sense. Families are what all parks try to attract and this is one way to attract them!

[brookep]

One more thing about maple syrup Hudson Mills itself produces about 5 gallons of syrup a year. The ratio is 40 to 1 that means 200 gallons had to be boiled down to make 5. That syrup goes to park employees and their families. Is that such a bad thing?




If they have 5+ gallons of pure maple then why would they serve corn syrup to paying customers?



DO you lie awake at night thinking there is a maple syrup conspiracy? Aligning yourself in the petty issue camp will not help 101 in future. I think you’re missing the big picture. By focusing on things of this nature you only make things difficult in the future.

[davidbihl]

The only thing that concerns me with pay to play (on existing courses) is that one of the wonderful things that disc golf does is draws in the disenfranchised crowd or The "alternative" high school students. Many of these kids have less than ideal lives with not a lot to look forward to or be passionate about. The fact that these kids are able to find something such as disc golf, and be guided and prompted by the people running leagues and tournaments, and also be around all the great personalities that our game has to offer. I hope that the pay to play, does not eliminate too many of these kids. Read "Steady" Ed's writing about this on DGA website. I think this is one of the great things about this game.

[NewDude]

This board has become a cultural study, a cross-section of micro cultures within the disc golf community -- the socialists, the capitalists, the financially challenged, the witty, the bitter, the rich, the poor, the syrup purists. I love it.

It is thoroughly entertaining to read all of this banter and bickering. Just remember, at the end of the day, we're all on the same team.

[terrycalhoun]

We *are* on the same team, yes. I think Hudson Mills is, too. If you follow the news statewide, all park systems are hurting pretty bad for revenues. And this might not even work out good for the parks. If it doesn't, I don't know what they will do.

And I agree about the "disenfranchised crowd," also. That is also one of my primary reasons for loving this sport. Luckily, they will still have Benton Hills, Mary Beth Doyle Park, Gordy Memorial in Ypsilanti, the EMU course, Bandemer, and other places.

I think it will be an interesting dynamic to see where all those folks who are least able to pay fees go, or if they will scrape up the dollars for Hudson Mills. Maybe it's time for a group to talk to AAPS about some work on the Pioneer HS course?

[valkhere]

if it is universal i have no problem with $50 for the year. it is the future of our sport, and it was going to happen sometime.



What good would it be if the pass was universal? Are there more Pay to Play courses around?

[brookep]

I think he is talking about the other Metroparks: Kensington,Stony, Willow

[cbdiscpimp]

50 for a Disc golf pass and 20 for a park pass??? Sounds great to me...........Its still a steal and hopefully it will keep away the annoying disrespectful littering casuals that clog the course on a regular basis...........I go to Hudson about 50 times a year so its still cheaper for me to pay 70 instead of 200 if I payed a daily fee every time I arrived at the park!!! It would be nice if the pass was good at all MetroParks but no matter what it is still a good deal!!!

The future of our sport (in a serious and professional sense) Is pay to play courses. That way during tournametns and league rounds we do not have to deal with littering annoying disrespectful casuals........This way we can charge spectators to watch and have the course to ourselves while we play for our money.

I believe its a step in the right direction.

[valkhere]

I think he is talking about the other Metroparks: Kensington,Stony, Willow



Are those also pay to play courses now? Or is HM the only one doing this?

[pinche]

I think he is talking about the other Metroparks: Kensington,Stony, Willow



Are those also pay to play courses now? Or is HM the only one doing this?


Just Hudson ....for now.

[kwilliamson]

Hudson Mills is the pilot program....The rest of the metroparks will most likely be going pay to play the following year, unless of course the Hudson Mills idea bombs.


I agree with Millz, the $50 is great if it cuts down on the vandalism and littering. But I fear that for the first year of this program there will be twice as much vandalism. I expect some of those casuals to show up to play get stopped because they haven't paid, then raise a ruckus and since they are already there pay the $2 and then take out there frustrations on park equipment...specifically the baskets, benches and signs. I would hope that the park anticipates this, which means that the courses will be heavily patrolled throughout the year.

My other hope would be that this money collected from disc golfers, would somehow be put back into the course. I know that is most likely not going to happen but I think it would make this fee alot easier for people to swallow and may not cause as much disention.

[scottcwhite]

Great post Mills, I agree with most of what you're saying.

If pay to play keeps out the annoying littering casuals then great. I think this is where the good courses are heading. But, The devil is in the details, and how this policy is enforced will ultimately determine its success or failure.

[Discraft_Keith]

One thing that has not been mentioned yet is the positive impact of an actual dollar amount showing how much money disc golf brings into the parks. At the end of the year you would hope that they can look at that total and see the huge benefit of having the courses in the ground.

Missing the Mills, but loving the sunshine here. Stay warm in MI!

[valkhere]

I am not wearing a wristband, that's for sure. Do I LOOK like someone who wears plastic wristbands????



Wow, and what SHOULD (yes I used that word without hesitating) people who wear wristbands look like?

[SarahD]

I'll let Daemon answer that one, since he's the one I posted it for. After all, I love his attitude and think that more people should think that way.

[SarahD]

Oh wait, that's right, he's banned from the boards! FREE DAEMON!

(and watch out for Big Brother)

[cyferban]

please post your pay to play comments here.
Pay to play only not other subjects or off the subject please.

[Mark_Stephens]

Besides paying $2 how is it being administered? Is there going to be a staff person at Hole #1? Knowing that would generate more comments on my behalf.

[scottcwhite]

From Hudson Mills:

We will have two methods for people to pay. One will be come to the park office which is open until 8 p.m. weekdays during the summer months and 9 p.m. on the weekends. The other is we will have a Recreation Attendant out on the courses selling these wristbands and bag tags.

[Mark_Stephens]

I am not against it per se. There are some things that I think people need to know about how it is all going be handled.

You don't really need to worry about the disc golfer that is fine with paying. Grumble or not they will pay...

However.

One person is going to try to cover both courses? Is that really going to work? As both courses tee-off far from each other I think that this will be hard to accomplish with 1 person. You are going to run into a lot of people not paying and running into my next questions I think.

Is there going to be someone looking for players w/o tags? If not, then how are you going to make people comply?

What are the repercussions if you don't have one (ie you sneaked onto the course)? If not, people are going to be more apt at playing until they are caught & then paying. As sad as that is, I can see that happening.

If it is not handled real well I think that there will be a lot of anamostity out there on the courses. Not just between the park & the players but, between the players themselves. Those that are "getting" away w/o paying and those that are paying.

[janttila]

I might be teeing off on hole 8 on the Monster and hole 4 on the OG. ;) /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif ;)

[cbdiscpimp]

I might be teeing off on hole 8 on the Monster and hole 4 on the OG. ;) /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif ;)



Oh man here we go!!! Just another reason disc golf has a bad name!!! No offence to you Joe.

[janttila]

I might be teeing off on hole 8 on the Monster and hole 4 on the OG. ;) /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif ;)



Oh man here we go!!! Just another reason disc golf has a bad name!!! No offence to you Joe.



No offense taken. It was meant as a joke but I'm sure that will bee the case with the casuals out there.

[bruce_brakel]

I suspect that people who are paying money to play who have cell phones will discretely address the problem of people jumping on the course for free. The Hudson Mills police are always happy to write tickets. I'm sure they'll figure out pretty quickly what they can charge you with for jumping on the course without paying.

[janttila]

TRESPASSING????
I'm sure that is an expensive charge. Probably come with probation too

[cbdiscpimp]

TRESPASSING????
I'm sure that is an expensive charge. Probably come with probation too



This is true and why shouldnt it........Your not going to SNEAK onto Whites Acres and play without permission are you??? And you dont see alot of people sneaking on ball golf courses to play for free do you??? No and that is because there are consequences and TRUST ME the people who are paying will police the non payers thats for sure!!!

[scottcwhite]

TRUST ME the people who are paying will police the non payers thats for sure!!!



734-426-8211 :D

[NewDude]

hmm

[romine]

I still take this stance

Hudson Mills and The Metroparks give southeastern Michigan the best disc golf you can find. If you like disc golf and want it to grow but dont understand why it hasn't, I'll tell you; its because of money. Cold hard cash. Greenbacks.

I am all for the $50 dollar fee to play even if that money goes back to disc golf indirectly. The fee does more than "line The Metroparks pockets." We have great courses like Hudson Mills, The Tunnel, Stoney and Willow because the metroparks put in great effort. The fee will, if nothing else, keep the courses there.

Some of you are angry about the $50 fee. Would you be more angry if The Metroparks said, "times are tight and we have to cut some expenses, starting with our disc golf courses"?

The fee also does some nice things some may not think are so nice. It will cause Hudson Mills and other metropark courses to enforce the fee with a higher policing presence. This will reduce things such as littering, fighting, and vandalism: the very things which give disc golf a bad reputation and prevent it from growing.

So the question is not about $50, its about whether or not you want the sport to grow.

[scottcwhite]

I bought my pass this weekend for $50.

I got #44, so $2200 has been paid so far for annual disc golf passes.

[wander]

# 22 here.

I'm learning to live with it. I'm hoping that their Enforcement plan might include a beverage cart circulating the courses once th weatherpicks up. Why not sell golfers some cool drinks while patrolling the park for bad guys?

I'd guess that parking in the alt. locations near #9 M and hole C Original will become quite popular but they'll catch onto that fast.

50 degrees today, or so said the weather folks. Woot!

Joe

[NewDude]

I predict that many people will play without paying this summer, and not get caught.

I paid my $50, though.

[disc_hound]

I pay the daily fee because I don't have an extra 50 to spend right now. Plus I want to see if I will actually play there 25 times this year. Now when it goes for all the metro parks I will for sure get the annual pass then. I will be curious to see how they police the course. I haven't been stopped yet this year and I have been there 5 times have payed but hidden the tag just to see what happened

[janttila]

Wanted to let everyone know that I bought a pass this past weekend. Number 72 [censored]! Also, wanted to let everyone know that I made it a point to play 25 [censored] rounds without paying before I bought the pass. I'm pretty [censored] convinced you don't have to pay to actually play HM. But after awhile, a guy feels like a [censored] jerk when everyone else has a pass and your playing for free99. In short, let the casuals sneak on!

[disc_hound]

Joe your an animal breakin the rules like that. prime time summer they will bust the cheaters im sure. I will say something to people with out since i pay

[bruce_brakel]

A season pass at Willow Brook in Byron is something like $300, so Hudson Mills is cheap. If we can get 60 players to chip in $5 each toward a season pass, someone will win one this Saturday at the Grand Opening Doubles. Or if they just one want basket to call their own, they can get a Chainstar for $300 off.

[janttila]

Counted about 15 [censored] casuals playing with out paying last night. Hmmmm....come one, come all and play for free on our beautiful pay to play course. Motha [censored]!

[BobbysGurl69]

Calm down JOE it'll be alright buddy..I hope to be going to get my pass some time this month or the next..I saw my dad's and his picture on it looks like a prison pic.He looks like he's trying to be a thug..LOL.HI DAD!!

[kwilliamson]

It was good to see the course patrolled Sunday during No-Foolin. And it was difficult to be upset with any of the casuals that were out there because you knew they paid their fee.
I do think Hudson Mills should have informed some of them prior to selling them a pass that there was a tournament going on. A couple of people said they had no idea until the second round was starting and the course was all of a sudden packed.

As I've stated before I'm all for the pay to play. However,
there were a couple of people walking the course checking the CTP flags that were stopped and asked if they had a pass. They stated they didn't have any discs. And they were told it doesn't matter. You have to pay to walk the course. I then got clarification that if I brought my wife out to walk with me as I played casually then she would need a pass. That also means that any caddy would also need a pass. And if your taking that stance I say that anyone just out walking a dog or jogging that happens to cross a fairway should be required to have a disc golf pass. So it comes down to that they aren't charging people to play disc golf they are charging just to step foot on the course. And if they are going to charge people just walking around the park then they might as well add the fee into the park entrance price so everyone gets charged.

[Mark_Stephens]

Kevin,

I am sure that it is just easier for them to say that than to try to determine who is playing and avoid conflicts.

HOWEVER, I am in total agreement with you there. It is called "Pay to PLAY"...

[janttila]

I think that it is reasonable to have a limit on the number of players on the course. How many people can the courses hold? 48 x 4= 192. So make that the limit. In short, the course should be closed to casual play when a tourney is going on. Especially when everyone has "paid to play".

[cyferban]

Comments from me on a couple of your thoughts.
Jerry Cyr told me that the policy is if you are on the DG course anywhere between hole 1 - 18 you better have a pass or expect to be checked. that would include walkers, caddies, etc.

Kim informed me yesterday that if staff needed to walk the course and check things they should get a pass as well but they wouldn't be charged for it.
I know a lot of people get upset for tournaments, you think you should have sole use of it. But that is not the policy of hudson mills. You have to share the park with the casuals that is the policy. Tournaments like no foolin can get busy and when you couple that with the great weather a lot of traffic is to be expected. Remember you cannot and should not tell casuals that the course is closed.

[SarahD]

Is HM going to close the course for D-GLO ?

[wander]

That has traditionally been the case, Sarah. Should be the case again this year as well. That is the one tourney during the year for which the courses are off limits to casuals.

Joe

[janttila]

why would the park ever close the course? All the tourny players pay their fee & the park can keep selling passes to the random casuals. Hopefully they charge all the spectators too. like that retired guy that's never seen the game before & notices someone on the lead card crushing 500'. It's been a poorly administrated policy. Complete hack job IMO. Bet it would be real easy 2 make those passes. Pass that on 2 the casuals.