You Make The Call...falling putt or not?

[junnila]

http://discgolftv.com/dgtv/main/265

[UncleBob]

It appears that the disc has not come to complete rest when the player moves forward. That is a tough call but I do belive this is a falling putt if it is within 10 meters. I would call it and i know it would bring controversy but I learned you play by all the rules all the time or no rules at all
Uncle Bob #3230 Active certified official

[MVP]

I say she demonstrated balance as you see she pauses before moving foreward. Whether or not the putt has come to rest or not in this case is irrelavent since she demonstrated balance then proceeded foreward.

[UncleBob]

So many players are afraid or intimidated to call the rules violations, saying i didn't want to make waves or he/she would have gone balistic if i called them on a violation. It is up to the group mainly to enforce all the rules all the time. The rules are not necessarily to penalize but to enforce strict standards of the game. I believe there should be a rule infraction stating that if you see a rule broken and don't call it then you or your group get a warning first time. I here these complaints at every tournament and have been hearing the same for years and years. Step up to the Adult side of this sport and have fun of course but Do enforce the rules.
Uncle Bob

[rhett]

It appears that the disc has not come to complete rest when the player moves forward. That is a tough call but I do belive this is a falling putt if it is within 10 meters.


It's worth pointing out again that the disc coming to rest has nothing to do with a falling putt or not.

[mcthumber]

It appears that the disc has not come to complete rest when the player moves forward. That is a tough call but I do belive this is a falling putt if it is within 10 meters. I would call it and i know it would bring controversy but I learned you play by all the rules all the time or no rules at all
Uncle Bob #3230 Active certified official



Whether the disc came to rest has nothing to do with calling a falling putt. The rule mentions nothing of the status of the disc.

After viewing the video a half dozen times, I saw no demonstration of balance after the release. Her left foot is in continuous motion right through the step forward. In real time, I probably would not have called it but having the advantage of repeated viewings and slo-mo, it was a falling putt IMO.

--Mike

[krazyeye]

It appears that the disc has not come to complete rest when the player moves forward. That is a tough call but I do belive this is a falling putt if it is within 10 meters. I would call it and i know it would bring controversy but I learned you play by all the rules all the time or no rules at all
Uncle Bob #3230 Active certified official



Whether the disc came to rest has nothing to do with calling a falling putt. The rule mentions nothing of the status of the disc.

After viewing the video a half dozen times, I saw no demonstration of balance after the release. Her left foot is in continuous motion right through the step forward. In real time, I probably would not have called it but having the advantage of repeated viewings and slo-mo, it was a falling putt IMO.

--Mike



At the apex the foot goes from moving backward to moving forward. That implies it stopped if even for a fraction of a second.

[Boognish]

Falling Putt.

I see more of this putting style than anything else, and no one who does it ever feels they are falling. IMHO, demonstrating balance means you have to show balance. Not imply it, but demonstrate it. It should be clear to everyone watching. It should be easy for any casual observer to determine if you were balanced or not. A basic way to do this is to put your back foot down on the ground behind your mini. She just putts then walks forward.

/a pet-peeve of mine
//way to many falling putts go uncalled or flat out denied

[Jeff_Peters]

NOT a falling putt as balance was demonstrated.

[denny1210]

There's clearly a pause as she's waiting to see if the putt drops. Definitely not a falling putt.

There's an up and coming pro down here that waits with his right foot (he's a lefty) up in the air and when he thinks the putts going in he starts walking towards the basket. It looks a little unusual and I had to watch him closely to see if it was a falling putt. After close analysis - no falling putt.

[krazyeye]

Putt (falling) – Falling Putt: A putt after which a player touches his or her marker disc, or any object beyond the lie, including the playing surface, before having demonstrated full control of balance.

I would say that having putted and simply having her foot behind her in the air and proceeding to walk forward demonstrates normal balance.

[Sharky]

I agree, tough call but it looks to me like she does demonstrate balance, I would not call it a falling putt or second the call, plenty of doubt and the benefit of doubt does go to the player.

[hexfet]

I would say that having putted and simply having her foot behind her in the air and proceeding to walk forward demonstrates normal balance.



She may have been balanced, but the problem is she didn't demonstrate it. It looks just the same as if she had been off-balance and just stepped forward and started walking to keep from falling.

[denny1210]

She may have been balanced, but the problem is she didn't demonstrate it.


so, maybe we should require players to stick their arms out sideways and then bring their index finger tips to their nose, before advancing to retrieve their disc.

[CaptainCrunch]

I always find that it is pretty easy to tell when someone is off balance. If they don't look off balance then I give them the benefit of the doubt as to being balanced. She does not appear to be off balance anytime during that putt.

When have you ever met a disc golfer who was balanced? ;)

[kkrasinski]

She demonstrated balance by rotating her torso towards vertical as she lowered her leg while her right (supporting) hip remained stationary. If she was not in balance, momentum would have her pitching forward towards the basket. This is clearly not the case.

[doot]

Definitely not a falling putt..shortly after release she could have put her left foot/leg down and taken a step backwards. To me this demonstrates balance. A legal putt IMO.

[gang4010]

I say balanced also. No falling putt in this instance. If however, this style resulted in more questionable instances/challenges - it may serve the player to make an adjustment to eliminate being questioned/distracted unnecessarily.

[tkieffer]

Borderline and very hard to call. I've always advised newbies on this that the best way to break a falling putt habit is to bend over and pick up your marker before any point contacts the ground ahead of it. If the person's style doesn't result in demonstrating balance, they'll fall on their face trying to pick up the mini.

[Jamruss]

Both feet behind the marker at release. At no point did I see a loss of balance. IMO.............a good putt.

[Alacrity]

Sorry but I don't see that she didn't demonstrate balance. There is nothing in the rules about both feet being on the ground before proceeding. She throws, balances on one foot and steps forward. I would have called it good.

[jnosnevets]

Falling putt for sure. Stroke her.

[rob]

Good putt. No loss of balance. It is not written anywhere that a player has to place both feet on the ground behind the mini before walking forward. She demonstrated good balance before, during and after the putt.

[seewhere]

good putt

[MVP]

C. Any throw from within 10 meters or less, as measured from the rear of the marker disc to the base of the hole, is considered a putt. A follow-through after a putt that causes the thrower to make any supporting point contact closer to the hole than the rear edge of the marker disc constitutes a falling putt and is considered a stance violation . The player must demonstrate full control of balance before advancing toward the hole.

Putt (falling) – Falling Putt: A putt after which a player touches his or her marker disc, or any object beyond the lie, including the playing surface, before having demonstrated full control of balance.
Good Putt!

[paul]

It's a falling putt. Had she put her left foot down she could not have maintained balance behind the mini.

[ck34]

Rule 803.04C. Any throw from within 10 meters or less, as measured from the rear of the marker disc to the base of the hole, is considered a putt.
CK: Check (assuming it was less than 10m)

Rule: A follow-through after a putt that causes the thrower to make any supporting point contact closer to the hole than the rear edge of the marker disc constitutes a falling putt and is considered a stance violation.
CK: Check. Her follow-through did not CAUSE her to move forward. She CHOSE to move forward.

Rule: The player must demonstrate full control of balance before advancing toward the hole.
CK: Check. Normal walking is defined as the ability to move forward while constantly adjusting your balance so you don't fall. Out of balance would be actually falling.

No falling putt. From a practical standpoint, the RC may have missed stating that the judgment for when someone can move forward is not until the disc has come to rest. Based on the current rule, I could throw a lofty 9.5m putt and start toward the hole after a quick pause and meet all of the criteria even though the disc was still moving, very similar to but even faster than this example.

[paul]

Rule: A follow-through after a putt that causes the thrower to make any supporting point contact closer to the hole than the rear edge of the marker disc constitutes a falling putt and is considered a stance violation.
CK: Check. Her follow-through did not CAUSE her to move forward. She CHOSE to move forward.



[/QUOTE]

Seems like your judging her on intent and that seems unnecessary here. Whether or not she chose to doesn't seem to matter with the way the rule reads. She followed through past her mini -- why worry about what choice she was making? She didn't put her foot down or even stop her leg swing establishing balance. You mentioned that walking is basically continually catching yourself from falling . .. she was still walking hence she was still falling whether she chose to or not. I rarely get into these discussions because they end up with me typing the same thing over and over . . . . I will not type the same thing again but I will read any responses in case I want to share my opinion on them . . . tee hee.

[ck34]

The very choice of the word "causes" in the rule requires a judgment on the part of the group. I'd say that most here would agree that she could have chosen to move forward or not without falling.

[rollinghedge]

Good putt.

[20165]

Borderline and very hard to call. I've always advised newbies on this that the best way to break a falling putt habit is to bend over and pick up your marker before any point contacts the ground ahead of it. If the person's style doesn't result in demonstrating balance, they'll fall on their face trying to pick up the mini.



<font color="blue"> profanity deleted</font> That is a falling putt, and we need to step up and call these violations. tkeiffer has the right idea,and isn't that hard, to many times do I see this, where a player sees that there disc is going to hit center chains and walks towards the basket after there release. That's a falling putt, why is it so hard to pick up your mini after a putt, then there wouldn't be ANY problems, no dout of balance. Instead people walk through there lie when they see it's a center putt, that's anoying, and should be a falling put IMO.

[paul]

Picking up the mini causes the exact same problems. You don't have to display balance to pick up the mini -- you can pick up while you're falling and I'd be surprised if everyone else hasn't seen someone try to save a falling putt by grabbing their mini as they're falling forward as if that makes it OK . . . .of course -- he chose to fall forward so that's OK. (Just kidding Chuck -- I get your point, I just disagree.)

Gang4010 probably has the best take on this one by saying that even it's not a falling putt it's a habit that's bound to put her into a confrontation she may not like. Better to adjust the behavior to a much more clear cut style than push the envelope with interpretations.

[denny1210]

This thread is ridiculous! The rule doesn't state that "both feet must come to rest on the ground behind the line of putt for at least one full second before the player may advance to retrieve their putt", it states the player must "demonstrate full control of balance". Maybe it could be re-written a little more definatively as people obviously disagree on what it means.

I'm sure there are a lot of the folks calling for this to be a "falling putt" that have done the same thing many times before. If we looked at slow-mo video of everyone in the pdga putting someone would argue for "falling putt" probably in about 30-50% of the cases.

We've got enough trouble getting players to call important things like courtesy warnings for smashing stuff, illegal drugs, flagrant foot faults when in a tight lie, etc. There is absolutely nothing to be gained from micro-analyzing things like this video. There is no competitive advantage that can be gained from not re-planting your back foot after releasing a putt before advancing.

maybe we should institute a second scoring category for style. graceful demonstrations of balance, creative shotmaking, big-air, comedic banter, and enthusiastic celebration could all be rated on a 1-10 scale and combined for a total "showmanship" award.

http://www.edgelawfirm.com/field.sobriety.tests/sfst.jpg
http://www.gymtide.com/current_season/2004/pastmeets/bodies/images/07/03-alexis-bm-wu-11.jpg

[paul]

If we looked at slow-mo video of everyone in the pdga putting someone would argue for "falling putt" probably in about 30-50% of the cases.



I disagree with this. I rarely see falling putts or anything remotely close to this example especially in any of the on line videos that I've seen. Falling putts -- or this instance questionable falling putts happen a lot at local events but that's not the same type venue as a PDGA event.

A local pro did practically the same move as she did just a couple nights ago when we were competing for a couple bucks. We called him on a falling putt -- no argument, he just lined up and threw it again. Sadly for us he made it and took the $$ -- but he knew it was a gray area that he left open to our interpretation. Um -- it's really not that big of a deal.

[denny1210]

but he knew it was a gray area that he left open to our interpretation. Um -- it's really not that big of a deal.


that thinking is a recipe for disaster. if you can call anyone for a falling putt based upon "our interpretation", then it leaves the gate wide open for unethical players to work each other at will by calling falling putt. even if nobody seconds the call, it's still in the air. we don't need this in the game and it is a big deal.

[rhockaday]

Would it have been a falling putt if she missed the putt and the disc landed beside the basket?

[denny1210]

Would it have been a falling putt if she missed the putt and the disc landed beside the basket?


In that case, if she was a friend of yours, you could call falling putt, have her second it and get the free re-putt. Forget about the spirit of the game.

[paul]

calling the falling putt isn't a big deal. putting it again isn't a big deal. The rule the way it's written is manageable . .. it's not a big deal.

[the_kid]

Not a falling putt! She had complete control of her body and in know way was she off balance.

[denny1210]

calling the falling putt isn't a big deal. putting it again isn't a big deal. The rule the way it's written is manageable . .. it's not a big deal.


if it's not a big deal then do this for us all: volunteer to be an on-course official at an a-tier event and shadow the lead group in open and call every instance like the one in the video (it happens all the time if you watch closely) and see if it's not a big deal.

[rob]

calling the falling putt isn't a big deal. putting it again isn't a big deal. The rule the way it's written is manageable . .. it's not a big deal.


if it's not a big deal then do this for us all: volunteer to be an on-course official at an a-tier event and shadow the lead group in open and call every instance like the one in the video (it happens all the time if you watch closely) and see if it's not a big deal.



It would be a VERY big deal if you called that a falling putt, because you would be WRONG!

[paul]

Denny -- I have only seen the lead card playing at 2 a-tiers . . .it didn't happen once out of the 150 or so putts from inside 10 meters that I saw.

Kelly -- please . . . it wouldn't be a big deal if it was called or if it wasn't called . . .it wouldn't be a VERY big deal if it was called or if it wasn't called . . .it's just not a big deal.

Calm down.

[paul]

Let's approach this from a different direction -- disc golf tv started this mess by posting the questionable putt. Here's a couple videos that 100% of the viewable putts from within 10m are not questionable. Why don't you post all the examples of the falling putts Denny . . . ?? I bet you're going to struggle with that . . .let me guess -- they only do it when the cameras aren't rolling? Don't make me start posting more videos . . .

http://discgolftv.com/dgtv/181/1/0

About 1/2 way through this next there's a fun one . . .not questonable but fun . . .see if you can find it -- look, he did all he could to establish balance behind the mine even when he was actually falling down . . . !!

http://discgolftv.com/dgtv/256/1/0

[SuicideXJack]

..... I've always advised newbies on this that the best way to break a falling putt habit is to bend over and pick up your marker before any point contacts the ground ahead of it. .....


My first opinion of many on this subject is the line you should draw at telling a newb what to do when they look at everything that an experienced player says/does as laws/rules. I've seen a hand full of am 2 try to call not picking up a mini before making other movements, a foot fault. The rules should be taught not exceptions to them, ways around them, or tricks to cantrip them.

[tkieffer]

..... I've always advised newbies on this that the best way to break a falling putt habit is to bend over and pick up your marker before any point contacts the ground ahead of it. .....


My first opinion of many on this subject is the line you should draw at telling a newb what to do when they look at everything that an experienced player says/does as laws/rules. I've seen a hand full of am 2 try to call not picking up a mini before making other movements, a foot fault. The rules should be taught not exceptions to them, ways around them, or tricks to cantrip them.



The rule is taught, this is the 'tip' to help someone who has a falling putt problem break himself/herself of it. Don't worry, we're not misleading anyone on the rules here.

[rhett]

if it's not a big deal then do this for us all: volunteer to be an on-course official at an a-tier event and shadow the lead group in open and call every instance like the one in the video (it happens all the time if you watch closely) and see if it's not a big deal.


I don't think that falling putts happen very much at all, so I think Denny chose his wording poorly.

If you don't think that calling stance violations is a big deal, then try following around the lead card at an NT or an A-tier and calling every one you see. Falling putts are a type of stance violation, but I think they are actually pretty rare in competition. Missing the mark on a fairway runup is whole other story, however.

[m_conners]

Sheesh...thats no where close to a falling putt.

[paul]

if it's not a big deal then do this for us all: volunteer to be an on-course official at an a-tier event and shadow the lead group in open and call every instance like the one in the video (it happens all the time if you watch closely) and see if it's not a big deal.


I don't think that falling putts happen very much at all, so I think Denny chose his wording poorly.

If you don't think that calling stance violations is a big deal, then try following around the lead card at an NT or an A-tier and calling every one you see. Falling putts are a type of stance violation, but I think they are actually pretty rare in competition. Missing the mark on a fairway runup is whole other story, however.



I agree that falling putts are not common. I agree that missing the mark on a fairway runup is a much more regular occurrence.

Falling putts are also actually called and seconded on occasion.

Missing the mark on a fairway runup is rarely called and seconded.

Denny -- discgolfmonthly.com has the final 9 from the Seneca Creek Soiree . . . lots of putts -- couldn't find all those falling putts . . .. could you? Still waiting for all the falling putts links so I can check them out . . .. ??

[TiMMAY]

Cute Girl!! ;)

[frisbeeguy]

Sweet putt!
Completely focused &amp; in control...perfect balance. She easily could have brought her foot down behind the mark instead of just walking forward to retrieve the disc.

[boredatwork]

Not really a close call, totally a good putt. She demonstrates balance because she has to change her momentum in order to move forward. Swinging the foot forward was a separate action after the putting motion had been completed.

[Sweeper]

I really hate falling putts and I hate the fact that I play with people all the time who have various excuses or explanations as to why their falling puts aren't actually falling.

That being said, to my untrained eye, that putt looks ok. I wish I had video of some of the kids who play in the weeklys around here. We'd have a field day!

[mbohn]

Not really a close call, totally a good putt. She demonstrates balance because she has to change her momentum in order to move forward. Swinging the foot forward was a separate action after the putting motion had been completed.



When I saw this I thought exactly what is stated above. Great putt...