Michigan AM'S???

[brookep]

Looks like we have a bumper crop of baggers this year. Let's go guys time to play with the big dogs.

Casey Cook 18230 MI USA 964 M Am
Ben Calhoun 16000 MI USA 962 M Am
Steve Mills 23516 MI USA 957 M Am
Damian Redman 22647 MI USA 952 M Am
Brad Brundage 22273 MI USA 954 M Am
Bob Smart 25584 MI USA 951 M Am

MOVE'EM UP!!!

[bruce_brakel]

Most of them just want to stay am for "one more year."

I think that year is 2011! :D

[bruce_brakel]

On a more serious note, times have changed. Casey is #64 on the current PDGA amateur ratings list. If Worlds were tomorrow and all those other guys played, Casey would have to play to his ratings indicated skill level just to finish in the bottom of the A-pool.

Used to be almost every amateur went pro around 940 or 950 like you did. Now there is a significant number of amateurs who are just playing for fun anyway and don't see the point in rushing on to donor pro status.

You're a good player, higher rated than all those guys. You know how many times you've cashed in the last three years. :o Why would you wish that on all those guys?

[cbdiscpimp]

Looks like we have a bumper crop of baggers this year. Let's go guys time to play with the big dogs.

Casey Cook 18230 MI USA 964 M Am
Ben Calhoun 16000 MI USA 962 M Am
Steve Mills 23516 MI USA 957 M Am
Damian Redman 22647 MI USA 952 M Am
Brad Brundage 22273 MI USA 954 M Am
Bob Smart 25584 MI USA 951 M Am

MOVE'EM UP!!!



After 2006 is over I wont be playing anymore am events. I just want to go play worlds in Tulsa and play USADGC again before I start getting smacked around by the 1000 rated guys. Id rather be the guy who everyone says bagged in 2006 then be the pro who quits playing in 2006 because he moved up to soon.


Most of them just want to stay am for "one more year."

I think that year is 2011!



Hey Bruce, Want to place a wager that ill be 1000+ rated and in the top 100 in the world by 2011???

[brookep]

I am just poking fun at these guys. They can do whatever they like.
All of them have potential to be great players but if they keep playing AM (even in unsactioned tournies :confused:) they are only limiting themselves.

[ChrisWoj]

I'd rather be in Michigan where I can feel comfortable being a 900 rated Am2 player... I keep getting yelled at for being a bagger for finishing in 2nd every Am2 tourney when I'm sure as hell not good enough for Am1 yet, as the aforementioned rating shows...

Frankly I consider guys like Daemon, Mills, Bob... all smarter than a certain local Toledo player who moved up to pro with a 910 rating (no offense to him, takes guts... but IMO is a little reckless).


-Chris.

[z Vaughn z]

Perhaps we'll represent, and have some good Am showings at Bowling Green and in Tulsa this year. I know of three Michigan Ams going to Tulsa this year, all of which have, or will have ratings above 950 next update.

[circlek13783]

How about your very on AM Nats TD?????

C'mon give me some cred! Todd White 13783 947 :D
Not bad for a TD with a Job that has NOTHING to do with Disc Golf!
Now, if I only had some of Scott Martin's talent....... :eek:

[brookep]

Don't you have to stay AM to TD Am Nat's :D?

[bruce_brakel]

Nice rating Todd. I had not noticed. Last time I noticed, it was when you were injured. You may need to play your tournament this year.

Moving up at 910 makes a lot of sense if you can afford to donate and just want to compete against the best. Staying am at 950 makes a lot of sense if you have a wife, kid, demanding job, chronic injury, or are just in it for the fun. Different people play tournament golf for different reasons. Everyone moves up when it makes sense to them in light of the reasons why they are playing.

[z Vaughn z]

How about your very on AM Nats TD?????

C'mon give me some cred! Todd White 13783 947 :D
Not bad for a TD with a Job that has NOTHING to do with Disc Golf!
Now, if I only had some of Scott Martin's talent....... :eek:



4 guys going to Tulsa?

[DSproAVIAR]

Nice rating Todd. I had not noticed. Last time I noticed, it was when you were injured. You may need to play your tournament this year.

Moving up at 910 makes a lot of sense if you can afford to donate and just want to compete against the best. Staying am at 950 makes a lot of sense if you have a wife, kid, demanding job, chronic injury, or are just in it for the fun. Different people play tournament golf for different reasons. Everyone moves up when it makes sense to them in light of the reasons why they are playing.


Personally, I enjoy playing against weaker competition and making $$!!!!!! (If I could only find that quote from Bruce)

[bruce_brakel]

Here you go:

Personally, I enjoy playing against weaker competition and making money!

Quote it whenever it works for you.

[DSproAVIAR]

Nice, thank you.

[z Vaughn z]

Cracked Plastic Classic, any ideas or thoughts on this tournament? Personally I hate coldbrook, but I do enjoy good competition, so I hope to see you all in 12 days.
A reminder for anyone planning on going...last year, Larry had to turn people away cause they reached their player limit. Be sure to call him, or send in your entry asap. PM me for a pre reg form.

[KDiscin]

I'd rather be in Michigan where I can feel comfortable being a 900 rated Am2 player...



I think it is sad you feel comfortable playing in the Intermediate division with a ~900 rating. Players with 900+ ratings are not intermediate level players. I have played many tournaments in many states and with out a doubt found the Intermediate division in Michigan to have the most players that play in a division under their skill level. I think it is bull and it causes a chain reaction because true intermediate players will move down to the recreational division to compete with people within their skill level. The problem lies when the people who show up to their first tournament and play recreational have no chance of competing. This is discouraging and could affect the true recreational or first time players’ outlook on competition and tournaments. As a growing sport and organization I think we should welcome the new players into a division in which they can compete.

Play at your skill level! If you’re rated 900+ you are not an intermediate.

[ck34]

Play at your skill level! If you’re rated 900+ you are not an intermediate.



Based on some other organization than the PDGA? Intermediate is 915>

Too many Intermediates playing up in Advanced is the problem that triggers the new players to leave. When Intermediate plays up, then Rec plays up and sometimes there are few or no Rec players to make a division. So, the new players are forced or feel obligated to play Intermediate and really get hammered. Play at your level most of the time (at least a year at a time if you can and especially when playing for series awards) and play up once in a while to test the next level.

[cbdiscpimp]

I'd rather be in Michigan where I can feel comfortable being a 900 rated Am2 player...



I think it is sad you feel comfortable playing in the Intermediate division with a ~900 rating. Players with 900+ ratings are not intermediate level players. I have played many tournaments in many states and with out a doubt found the Intermediate division in Michigan to have the most players that play in a division under their skill level. I think it is bull and it causes a chain reaction because true intermediate players will move down to the recreational division to compete with people within their skill level. The problem lies when the people who show up to their first tournament and play recreational have no chance of competing. This is discouraging and could affect the true recreational or first time players’ outlook on competition and tournaments. As a growing sport and organization I think we should welcome the new players into a division in which they can compete.

Play at your skill level! If you’re rated 900+ you are not an intermediate.



If you go HERE (http://www.pdga.com/documents/05PlayerDivisionsTable.pdf) you will see that ALL players with a rating of 915 or less ARE Intermediate level by PDGA standards.

So please dont tell people to move up to divisions they are not good enough for. I believe THAT is the reason the player base drops off. People force other people to move up to divisions they are not good enough for they get stomped into the ground and then stop playing tournaments because they cant compete and if they move back down people like you will just give them crap and make it uncomfortable and not fun to play in tournaments. I think if everyone played in the division where their PDGA rating places them then we would have a stronger player base and better competition in all the divisions.

[kwilliamson]

I totally agree that if your rating says that your an AM2 stay an AM2 until your rating tells you otherwise. I also think that should be the same thing for AM1.

And as we start to see the rating updates start to happen more often ;) ;), I would like to see it become mandatory to play within your ratings division with no age or sex protected divisions.
This would then eliminate the need to call anyone a bagger.
And <font color="red"> realistically </font> anyone in that ratings capped division should be able to get the win at any tournament.
This would also give the master players and women bigger fields to play against in most tournaments and still have them be competitve.

[thetruthxl]

So please dont tell people to move up to divisions they are not good enough for.



<font color="red">A player's competative nature and the urge to better their game should over-shadow PDGA guidelines to restrict someone from moving up. We, as disc golfers, should frown against moving up and down repeatedly over several seasons of play. Alot of players I know will dictate which division they should play depending on how they feel that day, not how they are taking steps to acheive a goal in their career. </font>


People force other people to move up to divisions they are not good enough for they get stomped into the ground and then stop playing tournaments because they cant compete



<font color="red">No one can force someone else to move up or down, but peer pressure is a factor. Who really cares what level you are? Play to the best of your ability and some. Move up. Take your licks.
If you won your first AM3 tourney and continued to play AM3, you're bound to get some smack your way. Its in the nature of our participants. Now, if you continually win or top 2-3 each tourney, what's stopping you from moving up? Are you in it to soak a TD out of plastic?
Not everyone has goals set like we do, Steve. We have a plan to play those tourneys that we want to acheive a higher level of play, KDiscin is stating that several players continually squat in lower divisions out of greed.
</font>


I think if everyone played in the division where their PDGA rating places them then we would have a stronger player base and better competition in all the divisions.




<font color="purple">Is that why you're rated 950+ and play almost exclusively AM1? 20 tourneys this past year in AM1, gives you a pro rating, but you're planning another year of amatuer play? </font>
By your argument, you should be playing pro....all the time

[bruce_brakel]

You know, that's not how it works in most other sports. You don't get to play pro football because you think you're tough enough. You aren't going to wrestle in the Tsumo World Championships just because you got attitude and a big belly. You won't be skiing in Italy at the Olympics just because you know in your heart you're good enough. You have to beat a lot of challengers to get on the pro golf and tennis tours. Some places you have to beat a lot of challengers just to get on the high school or college team.

I would love a system in disc golf where you absolutely have to earn your way up.

[brookep]

I started this thread to poke fun at some people and now we are talking about rec and int players so here is my opinion take it or leave it.

I guess the first question you need to ask yourself is why do I play disc golf in tournaments. Am I here because I like disc golf or am I here to be a prize *****. If you live in an area filled with life time AM's then what are you going to do? Keep beating your head against a wall? You can't change others behavior only your own so either get better and kick their a** and then become the very same person you have come to despise OR move up and forget about them play with better players and improve your game.


None of us will ever be rich playing disc golf and last I checked you couldn’t buy groceries or pay the rent with discs. SO... take my advice play with better players, don't use disc golf as a measure of your self worth and most Importantly HAVE FUN. Fun is the best part about disc golf.

Last Sunday I won Open at Chills at The Mills. It was my first win EVER as an am or pro sure it was tough playing all those years with nothing but second places but it never stopped me from competing or having fun.

Playing as a pro is WAY better than playing as an am because you play with good people, learn how to improve your mental game, and when you start placing in the upper half it feels great.

Sorry for the rant but listening to people lament over rec or int just seems silly to me. There will only be one winner ever if it's you or not it's the love of the game that lasts.

[ChrisWoj]

I'd rather be in Michigan where I can feel comfortable being a 900 rated Am2 player...



I think it is sad you feel comfortable playing in the Intermediate division with a ~900 rating. Players with 900+ ratings are not intermediate level players. I have played many tournaments in many states and with out a doubt found the Intermediate division in Michigan to have the most players that play in a division under their skill level. I think it is bull and it causes a chain reaction because true intermediate players will move down to the recreational division to compete with people within their skill level. The problem lies when the people who show up to their first tournament and play recreational have no chance of competing. This is discouraging and could affect the true recreational or first time players’ outlook on competition and tournaments. As a growing sport and organization I think we should welcome the new players into a division in which they can compete.

Play at your skill level! If you’re rated 900+ you are not an intermediate.


According to what standards are these? I'm a 900 even rated player, I'm 15 points BELOW the level at which the PDGA says I move up to MA1 Advanced. Why should I move up to MA1 where players are more experienced?

In addition... you don't know me at all and don't know my situation. Right now I'm about two months away from having one full year of experience throwing something other than an UltraStar Frisbee! I just picked up the game barely 10 months ago and I'm expected, because my first PDGA rating based on less than 10 rounds, is a 900 even... to move up.

I have a history of moving up once I've realized I have nothing left to prove in a division. Hell, you don't know my situation at all... I won my second MA3 Rec. tournament ever back in July. Do you know what I promptly did? I promptly decided to move up. Two weeks later I lost my sight in my left eye permanently in a carjacking/pistolwhipping incident. What did I do? I proceeded to move up to MA2 Intermediate at a B-Tier event only three weeks later.

You don't know who I am to say that I'm hanging back a division. I still haven't won an MA2 tournament, I've had one close call and otherwise I've been anywhere from four to twenty strokes back (note: my PDGA record indicates a win, but it was due to a disqualification of someone that hammered me).

Seriously... I'm moving up as soon as spring comes around, so don't you, an 850 rated player, rag on me for not moving up yet just because you seem angsty over... no, I won't go there (I'll just imply it, to leave you irritated with me)


-Chris.

[paerley]

I totally agree that if your rating says that your an AM2 stay an AM2 until your rating tells you otherwise. I also think that should be the same thing for AM1.

And as we start to see the rating updates start to happen more often ;) ;), I would like to see it become mandatory to play within your ratings division with no age or sex protected divisions.
This would then eliminate the need to call anyone a bagger.
And <font color="red"> realistically </font> anyone in that ratings capped division should be able to get the win at any tournament.
This would also give the master players and women bigger fields to play against in most tournaments and still have them be competitve.



The only problem I see with people shooting in the division that their rating places them in is a situation like me. I started out last summer an honest am-3 player. I learned very fast, but I also played a lot of events. My first few events were very low rated. Now, I'm shooting 915-920 golf, but my rating is 898. I have the ability to get out there and shoot a 960 rated round if I have my mind in the game. My rating says am-2, but my friends (and even Me) think I should be in Am-1. Now this weekend I do plan on shooting am-2, but it's a 2 day event and I can't make the day am-1 is on.

But anyways, back to the relevant point, while your rating is a good guideline for where you should be playing, noone should play where their rating says they should if they don't think it's fair. I really wish I could play am-1 this weekend, and I'll feel like a bagger playing in am-2, but I'd rather get to play than not play.

[thetruthxl]

... take my advice play with better players, don't use disc golf as a measure of your self worth and most Importantly HAVE FUN. Fun is the best part about disc golf.


....Playing as a pro is WAY better than playing as an am because you play with good people, learn how to improve your mental game, and when you start placing in the upper half it feels great.





Congrats on the win, Brooke!!! It was tough conditions and tough competition there...I know.

I am playing in the Open division this year. Not because I think I've overcome the level of AM1, I haven't won an AM1 event yet in the 2.5 years of competetive disc golf I've played....but I know, for me, playing with people of a <font color="red">higher calibre </font> will only strengthen my game.
I'm also a musician for many more years than a disc golfer. One thing that playing guitar and performing has taught me is that if you settle for playing with people that are at your level or less, you are only going to perform to their expectations but never more.
If you really want to excel in anything, put yourself with people that can teach you something you didn't know. <font color="green"> It's harder for the teacher to learn from the student than the student to learn from the teacher. </font>
Take the step and move up. Otherwise, float in limbo and take home plastic if that's what only matters to you.

[KDiscin]

In addition... you don't know me at all and don't know my situation.



That is precisely why I was not attacking you. I was simply stating some differences I have found playing tournaments in Michigan vs. other states.


But anyways, back to the relevant point, while your rating is a good guideline for where you should be playing, noone should play where their rating says they should if they don't think it's fair. I really wish I could play am-1 this weekend, and I'll feel like a bagger playing in am-2, but I'd rather get to play than not play.



This is more of the point I was getting at. I just think is sad that me as an 850 rated player should be playing in recreational according to the standards, and according to most of you. But I have placed 2nd in intermediate and in the top 10 in tournaments outside of Michigan. I feel I am not a recreational player except by my rating. I also think my rating is not necessarily representative of my current playing level. The only place I feel comfortable playing recreational is in Michigan but I still don’t do it often because I feel bad when the first time tournament player gets their #$*&$! handed to them.

[z Vaughn z]

I plan on playing Am1 all year long...sure, I may be playing some pro events and hopefully denying money. My aim is to play national events where I look to place high in Am1. Sure, a 950 player may whomp local players playing Am-1 at a C-tier, but the same 950 player can get their arse handed to them in an A-tier or Major event.
As Michigan Players, we should embrace the high level players in our divisions as it is only going to make the play of our State better. I root for our State to play well at every large tournament. When you are barking at a player to move up, think about the big picture. Disc Golf is in the process of being larger than back yard Sunday golf. Players will move up when they feel ready.
So when you are checking the scores at those National Amateur events....look for those Michigan names. We hope to represent our State well.

[denny1210]

Brooke,
Congrats on the win! I always enjoyed the times I got to play with you up North and think of you as a model of sportsmanship.

To play devil's advocate, I am an example of a guy that "moved up" too quickly. In 2000 I won my only event in advanced, turned down $50 in a very small pro tourney, and started thinking I was good. Leading up to Am Worlds in 2001 I put my best effort into practicing and my game peaked with a 50th place finish. Shortly after that I took $25 in "Silver Pool" money at an MDGO. My thinking was that by burning that am bridge I'd force myself to continue to practice a lot.

As it turned out I started working a lot more hours, had a few injuries, and regressed in my playing ability. Two years of sporadic and poor tournament play followed before I finally petitioned to get my Am status back. That turns out to have been the best move I've made in disc golf. I now play 2-3 events per year and enjoy myself. If I play great I have a chance to win and if I don't I'm out of the plastic. AKA, I'm in the right division.

I do aspire to start practicing and playing more events in '07 or '08 as time and finances permit. I'd like to get into an even balance between volunteering and competing. If things go well I can see myself being competitive as a pro-master.

I definitely agree that it's fun to play in the open and rewarding to be within sniffing distance of the cash, but I'd argue that while playing up can be eye-opening and educational it is no guarantee to improve your game.

It can, though, have the motivational effect of helping establish a workout and practice regimen which will lead to better playing.

[terrycalhoun]

Funny, Brooke. I am enjoying this.

<font color="red"> Casey Cook 18230 MI USA 964 M Am
Ben Calhoun 16000 MI USA 962 M Am
Steve Mills 23516 MI USA 957 M Am
Damian Redman 22647 MI USA 952 M Am
Brad Brundage 22273 MI USA 954 M Am
Bob Smart 25584 MI USA 951 M Am </font>

As fairly recent experience has proven, the fact is that on any given day I can beat any one of these guys, as much as it might make them cringe to read my words.

And no one on Earth would be suggesting that I should play Open Pro. :D I can't even throw more than 320' on level ground - although I made a 600' drive at Da Canyon in Brooksville, FL last week, thanks to huge elevation.

[brookep]

And no one on Earth would be suggesting that I should play Open Pro.

Terry you have been bagging ever since that WORLD TITLE!! you won *cough*

I also seem to remember you telling everyone you were going to be the State champ in AM1 :o

[terrycalhoun]

Brooke, I think it was 2003 when I last competed a lot in Michigan - before my work got busier, paid and volunteer.

Whichever year it was, I went into the finals tied for first in Am-1 but I had a family obligation to be elsewhere and so I could not go to Ludington. I think that I had won the masters division statewide the previous year, GM the year before that and, yes, I wanted to win Am-1 also. Darn.

I did get a PDGA obelisk trophy for Am GM points that year, though, from beating so many Am-1s. I was actually also 6th in points in Masters that year. And in 2002 I was 20th in Am Masters at Worlds in Miami.

The Am-1s are so much better now that I doubt that I could consistently beat enough of them to win a statewide series, even if I had the time.

My next goal is Amateur Senior Grandmaster World Champion in 2007! After that, maybe Pro Senior GM, but I doubt that I can ever beat Peter Shive. Last year at the MDGO I watched him - 63 years old(!) put his drive on the Monster Hole 18 Long, within 20 feet of the pin!! (When I won Am Grandmaster in 2000 I was lucky: (a) home courses and (b) the closest competition (Billy Henley, from LA) had no experience playing in the rain.

I occasionally play Pro to have congenial competition, but I doubt that I will ever turn Pro - unless there develops a senior tour with decent money in it and, in retirement, I can afford to travel that much.

I personally think that people should have to *qualify* to be a Pro, not just self-declare. Just think about that: If being a Pro was a reward for competing well, you might even get more Am-1s competing in Open - hoping to get enough "points" to qualify as Pro.

[thetruthxl]

I am enjoying this convo, but I think KDiscin was interested in Am to Am status. I have noticed in other states that a TD would bump players into their more competative brackets based on ratings vs letting the player determine what level they want to play (i.e.: "I haven't played as much as in the past years, so I think I'll play Am3 vs Am2...." or "I didn't get 8 hours of sleep so that justifies me playing Am2 Vs Am1 where I placed top 5 in the state last year."
THese are the occations he's talking about. I think we, as a state, need to crack down on AM on AM crime. :eek:

[bruce_brakel]

In the other states you refer to TDs and players have been playing PDGA tournaments by PDGA rules but they have been slow to adopt PDGA concepts and definitions. I get around the midwest some so I know what you mean.

For five years now the PDGA has defined recreational, intermediate and advanced divisions by ratings. Michigan and some states have been faster to adopt the PDGA concepts and definitions and to displace former local values and expectations about amateur divisions.

In Michigan I think this is in part because when these changes were taking place Michigan had a lot of players on the PDGA board and a few TDs or local leaders choosing to play in the division indicated by their rating. The Commissioner played Intermediate. The State Coordinator did too. The Financial Director felt free to play Rec or Intermediate on the rare occasion that he had time to play a tournament.

The other thing that has helped some states making the transition to the new definitions is TDs running sanctioned lower divisions. In some states they never had sanctioned rec and intermediate divisions. Members who wanted a rating had to play up. This just served to perpetuate old ideas like you only play rec at your first three tournaments, or you should move up as soon as you win a tournament, or you should move up if you get prizes three times in a division.

What we have now with ratings is far better than the hodge-podge of local expectations that would vary from state to state and city to city.

Because our ratings system puts so much weight on rounds you shot ten months ago, new players who begin playing tournaments while they are still improving rapidly are going to see some ratings lag. But this is a problem with the current formula, not a problem with defining divisions by ratings.

The best way to get the ratings volunteers, employees and independent contractors to notice the flaws in the current system would be for the players who represent those flaws to play the division indicated by their rating. If you feel badly about winning all the prizes, try this script, "Who played in my division today and did not win anything? Hands? Anyone? Thanks for sticking around for the awards ceremony. If you'd like a free disc, see me over there at that picnic table." Philanthropy is great for guilt.

I never feel guilty about winning stuff anymore, and not just because I'm a sociopath. Usually everyone who did not win anything in my division could have played in a lower division appropriate for their rating. If someone is too proud to admit that they are only as good as they are, that's not my issue.

As to playing up to improve faster, I'm sure that works for some people, especially if they play up so many divisions that their competitors take pity on them and show them how to hold a disc and stuff. Some players are going to improve faster if they are in the hunt for a trophy in the last round and have to play their best competitive game to get it.

Anyway, our firewall was preventing me from logging in to PDGA.com for the past couple of days so I had a lot to say.

Sorry. Back to razzing those super ams!

[scottcwhite]

With technology where it is now I don't see why the PGDA can't update our ratings more often. I think eventually it could be done so that you know your new rating immediately after the score has been reported to the PDGA by the TD.

Is there anything other than record keeping that is holding this back? Maybe the PDGA wants to limit the number of ratings updates for a reason? Or does it just take that long to calculate and update the ratings?

I also agree that more recent tournament results should be weighted and influence your rating more than old results. Maybe I'm just saying that because I would have a higher rating then.

[DweLLeR]

Its aready been decided....here.

Ratings Updated More Often Statement from Chuck Kennedy (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=503937&amp;page=0&amp;view=collap sed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=31&amp;fpart=1)

Of course there is the issue of all TD's turning the events IN ON TIME, that throws a wrench in the works.

[ck34]

The primary reason we're resisting more frequent ratings updates is so we don't disrupt tournament entries for TDs more than necessary. The more often ratings are updated, the more confusing tournament management becomes for TDs who have to juggle divisions for players whose ratings would bounce around after preregistering. And, players would delay preregistering more than they do now to wait and see their latest rating. There are players who registered for the Memorial coming up in March who potentially will have had three ratings updates since they registered in early December. There's also a time lag for communicating each ratings update because not everyone has internet and some players don't find out their rating until they play a PDGA event where the TD tells them.

[paerley]

The primary reason we're resisting more frequent ratings updates is so we don't disrupt tournament entries for TDs more than necessary. The more often ratings are updated, the more confusing tournament management becomes for TDs who have to juggle divisions for players whose ratings would bounce around after preregistering. And, players would delay preregistering more than they do now to wait and see their latest rating. There are players who registered for the Memorial coming up in March who potentially will have had three ratings updates since they registered in early December. There's also a time lag for communicating each ratings update because not everyone has internet and some players don't find out their rating until they play a PDGA event where the TD tells them.



There should be an exception added to the division guidelines about people who have their ratings go up during a points series that happens to be sanctioned tournaments. I would have been unable to compete in the J-Bird Summer Slam finals last summer if the ratings update had come out sooner as it would have forced me out of the division in which I had qualified.

[ck34]

The exemption is available. As long as those in charge of a series make it clear at the start of the series that you may remain in the same division for the length of the series regardless of ratings change, then the Competition Director will support that. So, if you start in Intermediate and later become Advanced based on ratings improvement, you may remain in Intermediate in series events, assuming the series director specified that option in the beginning.

[bruce_brakel]

We deliberately don't use a series rule for the Illinois Open Series. We think if your rating goes up, you should go up. Last year we thought about making a special award for the rec player or intermediate who was leading his division on series points and then got bumped, but the need did not arise.

[the_kid]

Michigan AMs need to come down to Ok and Tx and get Stomped by our "AMS" :o

[paerley]

Michigan AMs need to come down to Ok and Tx and get Stomped by our "AMS" :o



I will come down any time somone offers to pay for my flight. I'd love to get to shoot in shorts again before June.

Pat

[z Vaughn z]

Matt, you started a trend down there for Bagging :eek:

[the_kid]

No I just followed it. Also if you move up before you are like 960 here your tourmament days are numbered as you won't be cashing much.

[bruce_brakel]

I know you're just razzing scooter.

Seriously, though, I think ratings have had more to do with more players staying in the advanced division at higher ratings than anything else. Before ratings you didn't really know how good you were. If you were winning in advanced you assumed you were good enough to move up and compete. Now every advanced player can look at his ratings and see how he'd be doing in the pro divisions. If a player is self-actualized enough to resist peer pressure, and self-directed enough to practice and improve without the negative reinforcement of donating to the pro division for a couple of years, he's not going anywhere until he's ready.

[cbdiscpimp]

Michigan AMs need to come down to Ok and Tx and get Stomped by our "AMS" :o



How about some of your AMS come up here and play some REAL courses and get there ACES handed to them instead of us coming down there and watching them just BOMB hyzers all over the place???

[tbender]

I'd love too Steve. Need to win the lottery first.

- a non-"bombing hyzer" throwing Texas MA1 player... :)

[ck34]

I think a case could be made that the traveling pros and internet score postings have had more impact than ratings to delay Ams switching to Pro. Even before ratings (and still today), the way you would determine the time to advance is when your scores were getting close to the last place cash in the next higher division. Traveling pros have moved that bar higher in bigger events. And, just seeing more tournament scores faster online provides more information to see what others are doing.

[DSproAVIAR]

Michigan AMs need to come down to Ok and Tx and get Stomped by our "AMS" :o



Let's see how many Texans v. Michiganders are in the final 9 at BG this year. 960? 960's got aboslutely NO chance at cashing in MI. Try 1000.

[thetruthxl]

Michigan AMs need to come down to Ok and Tx and get Stomped by our "AMS" :o




I'll bet our baggers could whomp your baggers any day!! :D:cool:

[bruce_brakel]

Definately, the more information you have, the better informed decision you can make.

So Chuck, at the Bowling Green Am Champs this year in order to come in 20th place in Advanced you had to shoot 955 golf. With more and more amateurs staying amateur longer, would it make sense to have different ratings breaks for A-tiers? How much chance does a 916 rated player have against 20 955 shooting players anyway? Maybe a snowball's chance in :eek: ?

[DweLLeR]

Michigan AMs need to come down to Ok and Tx and get Stomped by our "AMS" :o




I'll bet our baggers could whomp your baggers any day!! :D:cool:



Careful gentlemen, I hear chucking cow patties can be real advantageous to your game! :D

And a word from the back of the bus......IN will be representing this year! :p

[ck34]

As long as someone's rating is within 50 points of the top players in a divison, they have a reasonable chance to cash/merch, not necessarily win. But with several players in Advanced on an increasing ratings curve, some of them are probably still underrated compared to the level they are currently playing. If one of those is at 916, watch out!

[z Vaughn z]

For example, I was rated at 892 and took 8th out of 43 Am 1's in the Lumberjack Open last year playing 944 golf. I was a little ahead of my rating.

Thats 52 points ahead :D

[paerley]

For example, I was rated at 892 and took 8th out of 43 Am 1's in the Lumberjack Open last year playing 944 golf. I was a little ahead of my rating.

Thats 52 points ahead :D



I've posted a 967 rated round, and I shot that while my rating was still 850. Currently my rating is 898 and I havn't shot under 900 since my rating became that (only one round rated lower than 920, and I was just screwing around that round, not thinking about it's affect on my rating.) I say the 2.5SD throw away rounds should be based on the standard deviation of your double rated rounds. That way I couldn't get away with bagging in MA-2(If this weekend's TD for cracked plastic is reading this.... I'm sorry to be playing in intermediate, but it's the only way I can play :( ).

[z Vaughn z]

Play both.

[z Vaughn z]

Michigan AMs need to come down to Ok and Tx and get Stomped by our "AMS" :o




I'll bet our baggers could whomp your baggers any day!! :D:cool:



Careful gentlemen, I hear chucking cow patties can be real advantageous to your game! :D

And a word from the back of the bus......IN will be representing this year! :p



How are you gonna represent in Bowling Green when none of you Indiana players were around to represent in your home state at the Michiana? Your highest finisher was 17th, while Michigan put 4 in the top 9.

But Scott, you did fair well at the USADGC this year, and I saw that you had a few more wins to close out the year. I'll be waiting for you in the BG final 9 with Daemon, and 5 or 6 other Michigan players:cool:

[z Vaughn z]

Michigan AMs need to come down to Ok and Tx and get Stomped by our "AMS" :o



I'll be down there for World's fool.

[DweLLeR]

Michigan AMs need to come down to Ok and Tx and get Stomped by our "AMS" :o




I'll bet our baggers could whomp your baggers any day!! :D:cool:



Careful gentlemen, I hear chucking cow patties can be real advantageous to your game! :D

And a word from the back of the bus......IN will be representing this year! :p



How are you gonna represent in Bowling Green when none of you Indiana players were around to represent in your home state at the Michiana? Your highest finisher was 17th, while Michigan put 4 in the top 9.

But Scott, you did fair well at the USADGC this year, and I saw that you had a few more wins to close out the year. I'll be waiting for you in the BG final 9 with Daemon, and 5 or 6 other Michigan players:cool:



No excuses! Ox Bow kicked my butt on Sunday, not that I was in position to do anything after the poor play of Rum Village anyway.....

Looking back at it now....I see that was really near my first complete year BACK into DG and I had no confidence in my game. I think we can all see near the end of the season, the turn my game took. So far this year I have an Open Ice Bowl win and an Open Masters Ice Bowl win (neither event was sanctioned).....so Im ready! See you Sunday at Cracked?

[DSproAVIAR]

That way I couldn't get away with bagging in MA-2(If this weekend's TD for cracked plastic is reading this.... I'm sorry to be playing in intermediate, but it's the only way I can play :( ).



Why can't you play AM1? (No razz, just curious)



I'll be waiting for you in the BG final 9 with Daemon, and 5 or 6 other Michigan players



You know it :) :) :) :) :) I cannot wait.

[thetruthxl]

I got your back, Pat

He can only come down on Saturday. The big dogs are sunday...making the trip? call larry for pre reg info, as of last sunday the AM1/Open list was half full. 48 players already want a piece of Coldbrook as of a week ago.
If it goes anything like Larry's tourneys last year, Sunday will be full before the Saturday event even starts!!!!

[DSproAVIAR]

The big dogs are sunday...making the trip?



Oh yessir. Mailed reg last Saturday, hopefully it didn't get lost in the mail! Does LL have the pre-reg list up somewhere?

[thetruthxl]

No D, he doesn't...but if you PM me, I can give you his number for confirmation.
Good luck...the trees don't like out-of-towners :D;)

[DweLLeR]

I dont think the trees at Coldbrook like any disc golfer. If they did like us they wouldnt have all those funny black plastic sleaves on them!!!

What hole is the one with the 5 foot fairways between the line of trees 50 feet off the tee? Of course that hole is really no different than hole 3 at Ox Bow.....but sheesh.....5 foot fairways?

[DSproAVIAR]

Good luck...the trees don't like out-of-towners :D;)



:) :) :)

[z Vaughn z]

I dont think the trees at Coldbrook like any disc golfer. If they did like us they wouldnt have all those funny black plastic sleaves on them!!!

What hole is the one with the 5 foot fairways between the line of trees 50 feet off the tee? Of course that hole is really no different than hole 3 at Ox Bow.....but sheesh.....5 foot fairways?


It sounds as though you are referring to hole #4. Yes, I'l be seeing you at Coldbrook on Sunday....Bring your earplugs cause the sound of plastic hitting wood all day is deafening!

[thetruthxl]

What hole is the one with the 5 foot fairways between the line of trees 50 feet off the tee? Of course that hole is really no different than hole 3 at Ox Bow.....but sheesh.....5 foot fairways?



I think you might be refering to hole #7? It's about an 8' wide fairway, 110' long, opening up to a small grassy area that shares with hole 18. The distintive charateristic of this hole is the pin placement...right on the side of a 20' drop-off! Yikes, get ready, coldbrook loves to punish the weak-hearted!! /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
BTW, hole "D" or hole 22 is in the long position, by the building, so bring your tightrope disc out to avoid the OB!

[the_kid]

Michigan AMs need to come down to Ok and Tx and get Stomped by our "AMS" :o



How about some of your AMS come up here and play some REAL courses and get there ACES handed to them instead of us coming down there and watching them just BOMB hyzers all over the place???



Ok we had guys at Michiana and Mid Nationals. Is that not close enough for you? :o

[the_kid]

Oh yeah and both were won buy a guy from TX in the Highest AM division and OK took #2 in white and Mid Nats.

[z Vaughn z]

Oh yeah and both were won buy a guy from TX in the Highest AM division and OK took #2 in white and Mid Nats.


Let me remind you that that was LAST YEAR!

This is a new year, and a new Michigan Am class that is gonna kick a lot of arse. :cool:

[kwilliamson]

Hey Michigan had the number 2 spot right behind you at Mid-Nats.
And I do believe in the white division I was the only player representing michigan. And I never had any aspirations to try and keep up with Devan, or Dustin.

And I was trying my best not to have to play with Ron (Some of you know what mean). :eek:

I do think, however, I did a pretty good job dropping from 7th to 32nd in less than 3 rounds. Plus I had a blast doing it even if I did almost come in last :D. Maybe this year I'll try not to blow up and actually make a respectable finish.

Hopefully I can convince a few more Michigan players to make the trip. The courses are worth it. And besides I'm looking for someone to split the travel costs with. :D

[the_kid]

Erron Salazar is better than I was. :oOr at least I would think so as I have never played with him but he trows farther and Putts better then i did last year. I DID LEARN TO PUTT TWO MONTHS AGO THOUGH> :D

[z Vaughn z]

Too bad he plays all his tournaments in Texas....Too afraid to leave the state I guess.

[the_kid]

No we have at least one tournament each weekend so there is no reason to leave. That and it takes 13 hours to drive across the state. :D

[Dobsguy]

Michigan has it's first out of state victory of the season. Bezerkeley (http://pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=5545#Advanced) Best Pairs Bash.

[z Vaughn z]

Nice work Paul...thats what I like to see. Show them Cali boys how we play in Michigan. :cool:

I've got 2 days to remember how to putt before the Cracked Plastic Classic. I've forgotten how in the past 3 days.... :confused:

[z Vaughn z]

Actually, Michigan's first out of state sanctioned win was Daemon Stahlin's win in Teledo, OH. Team Michigan is looking extra baggy this year :D

Playing in the snow makes you a better player.

[paerley]

That way I couldn't get away with bagging in MA-2(If this weekend's TD for cracked plastic is reading this.... I'm sorry to be playing in intermediate, but it's the only way I can play :( ).



Why can't you play AM1? (No razz, just curious)




The people I'm riding with won't be sticking around for sunday. The only chance I have to shoot is to shoot on saturday :(.

[Dobsguy]

Actually, Michigan's first out of state sanctioned win was Daemon Stahlin's win in Teledo, OH. Team Michigan is looking extra baggy this year :D

Playing in the snow makes you a better player.



Even better, congrats Daemon

[jHarr]

nice work dobs, & looks like a well-attended 4rounder too...
pdga finally changed my addy to michigan so I can help balance away from all michigan ams being called baggers... d'oh!

[DSproAVIAR]

Michigan has it's first out of state victory of the season. Bezerkeley (http://pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=5545#Advanced) Best Pairs Bash.




H E L L YEA!!!!!!
Way to do it Dobson!!!!! With a BIG turnout too! Congrats!
You coming up for DGLO?


BTW--And looks like Paul was the strong half (http://pdga.com/tournament/playerstats.php?PDGANum=26641) of his team!! Sweet Dobs!!!!

[paerley]

T-2 Hours (6 PM EST) till 4 of us from Mason County Disc Golf come down to K-Zoo. It'll be 2 of these guys first tourneys (Carl and BJ) so they will likely be throwing am-3. Jon and I have tourney experience (Jon shot in Mud Bowl at the Mills a couple weeks ago) and will be shooting in AM-1. If Tom Organ comes down for the tourney sunday, I may be sticking around for that, but who knows??????? Anyone going out to a k-zoo bar tonight, give me a call: 231 742 1589.

[thetruthxl]

Oh yeah and both were won buy a guy from TX in the Highest AM division and OK took #2 in white and Mid Nats.



I would have had you guys at mid nationals if my job hadn't turned down my vacation request, then fired me, then denied unemployment (travelling tourney money) then given it to me after the tourney...... :(
I'll kick it this year, I've got the inside though...I helped build some of the holes 2 winters ago...
well, I followed chuck's tape, cut and burnt schtuff. :D
Beautiful view from the top, eh?

[thetruthxl]

My fellow michiganders had an intervention with me and convinced me that I'm not playing pro in the big series this year...since all I can play due to my joby-job is the big events: LOOKS LIKE MICHIGAN HAS ANOTHER BIG SWINGER THIS YEAR!!! I guess I have to give my friends the money for the difference in price between am and pro for our personal ace pool???? :(

<font color="blue"> Michigan Disc Golf: Four Seasons of Whoopass </font> :D

[z Vaughn z]

The 2006 Michigan Ams are not complete without a Yetti!! Thats good news :D

[paerley]

The 2006 Michigan Ams are not complete without a Yetti!! Thats good news :D



Indeed, I saw him on a parallel fairway at a tourney and was fumbling for my camera phone to document a Yetti hurling plastic.

[thetruthxl]

What could be better than an Orc and a Yeti? :eek:

[the_kid]

Michigan has it's first out of state victory of the season. Bezerkeley (http://pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=5545#Advanced) Best Pairs Bash.

\



But it was Doubles. :D

[thetruthxl]

Michigan has it's first out of state victory of the season. Bezerkeley (http://pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=5545#Advanced) Best Pairs Bash.

\



But it was Doubles. :D




<font color="purple"> Which makes it a Doubley fine win!! </font>

[DSproAVIAR]

Michigan has it's first out of state victory of the season. Bezerkeley (http://pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=5545#Advanced) Best Pairs Bash.





But it was Doubles. :D



No. It was not (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=5642).

[Dobsguy]

I am going to try and get back in town for the GLO. We shall see though. I just got a new job and am not sure when I might be able to get time off. I will try my best though. I am excited about the St. Patricks Classic next month and the Master's Cup in April. I'm jealous that you guys are going to Bowling Green.

[z Vaughn z]

I am going to try and get back in town for the GLO. We shall see though. I just got a new job and am not sure when I might be able to get time off. I will try my best though. I am excited about the St. Patricks Classic next month and the Master's Cup in April. I'm jealous that you guys are going to Bowling Green.



We'll be sure to put a few in the final nine at Bowling Green for you.

[Dobsguy]

So how did it go at the Cracked Plastic???

[paerley]

So how did it go at the Cracked Plastic???



I screwed my elbow up early in the first round and posted an 82, which put me in 8th(AM-2) going into the second round. I iced it and popped some ibuprofen between rounds and shot a 72 in the second round which got me up to 3rd. A guy brian/bryan on my card both rounds managed to jump from 5th to second. All in all, fun was had.

INCREDIBLE players pack:
X Tracker (Event Stamped)
Star Wraith (Event Stamped)
Mini (Event Stamped)

I also got a CTP on my first shot of the day. Hole 17. I left my D Wasp sitting about 2.5 feet in front of the pin. It held up the whole day. A sweet wooden mini!!!!

My high point was, I was 1 up in the second round stepping up to a simple 300 foot righty hyzer; Hole 7. There is SOME risk in going at it in that there's a short hill left of the pin. I knew that a birdie would put me at even par on the round, which was my goal, and I stepped up with my Z Wasp and put it 15 feet left of the pin. Sunk the putt and walked back to tourney central content on the day.

I did give away 3 discs to guys I had beaten, 3 Glow Elements I had left over from earlier this year.

edit: clarified what div I shot in and noticed that putt does, in fact, have 2 Ts in it, not one.

[Dobsguy]

Nice job Pat. Has Burke been playing this winter??

[paerley]

Nice job Pat. Has Burke been playing this winter??



Yep, he was there. Finished 25 over total I think. He's joined the pdga too:

Pat Burke #28567
Ann Arbor, MI, USA

He was 1 behind me after the first round, but the second round didn't treat him so well.

[Dobsguy]

That's great. Any word yet from today's results??

[scottcwhite]

Sorry I can't comment on the CPC results, anyone? I'm curious too..

I got a chance to play a course at the University of Essex in England this past weekend. As a 908 rated Michigan AM, I was on fire and made the best rounds (http://www.essexdiscgolf.co.uk/ace.htm) list, shooting a 1020 (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=4932&year=2005&include_ratings=1#Open) rated round on the 18 hole course and matching the course record on the 9-hole. This course is really nice and really long. If anyone ever has a chance to play it, I would highly recommend it.
http://www.essexdiscgolf.co.uk/course.htm

[DSproAVIAR]

CPC--A Local named Luke tore it up with a 75 and 76, not sure on details with that, the lead card was far from where I was. The event was awesome though. Perfect weather, great food, fun had by all.

Funny story of the day--I drove on 16 and had an incredibly lucky shot, with a white pro SL. Our 3some (Dennis Schwarz and Bob) couldn't find the disc, and I called it lost. Due to the new rule, I had to run back up the hill (We already had 2 groups waiting) and re-tee. I took a circle 5 and continued on. The group in back of us found the disc, not 30 ft from the basket. Durp!!

Dennis Schwarz got his first ever AM1 cash, with sweet payouts. I think he t-8th and got $55 or so. Al Schack won with a -10 and a -12, I think?? Pat Vitale was in the lead after R1, but couldn't put it away. Al won both days, Open and Master. Start the Lumberjack smack talk!!

[DSproAVIAR]

Nice round Scott. They should've put "yank" in parantheses on that record round. Is that a weekly thing so you have a chance to take the record yourself?

[thetruthxl]

The Cracked was a blast...not alot of snow until the awards ceramony.

Personally, I had problems with the first tree of every hole the second round. It just left me with a chance for an incredible upshot/save 24 times! :o

Truth's hole of the day:
#4 rnd 2. Struggling to get any type of game going at the end to secure a last cash spot, I birdied #2 & #3, looking at #4 (420' with the "guardian" trees at the end of the 100' shoot) I needed to make up 2 strokes on the last 2 holes!! YIKES
My drive with a tee bird stayed amazingly stable instead of flipping out towards OB parking lot once it luckily got past the "4 horsemen" trees and ended up in the dividing rough between #4 & #5's fairways, leaving me with a 45', downhill, through tall prickers and branches. I nailed a floater into headwind for the 2, but sucked a 3 on #5 leaving me 1 stroke out of cash.

Fun Day!!! Thnaks larry!
The next Kalamazoo/Battle Creek tourney is in March "The Lumberjack Open" at Kimball Pines....and they're adding 6 holes!!!! a 24hole Kimball WOW!!!

sWEETplayerspackageiwannathrowmytrackerandstarbeas t! :cool:

[scottcwhite]

Nice round Scott. They should've put "yank" in parantheses on that record round. Is that a weekly thing so you have a chance to take the record yourself?



Yea, i guess the round record can be posted at any time as long as there is a witness. I will be back next weekend to try & break the record, but the scoring conditions couldn't get much better than they were on Saturday...

Too bad about that temporarily lost disc at CPC :( I wish I could have played in that for the players pack alone! I will definitely be at the Lumberjack!!! :D

[DweLLeR]

The Cracked Plastic is a great fun filled event. Its hard to believe that short of a course plays so hard! Taking bogeys on holes less than 200 feet?!?!? Oh the shame, right?! Wrong! While I hit my share of trees, along with everyone else, I wouldnt change (cut) a thing. What a fun little course.

Players pack is awesome! Lunch was awesome! Beverages were awesome! UNBELIEVABLE payout!

Thanks Larry and Crew, Ill be back next year for this one!

PS: 4 under takes second in MA1.....crazy! :p :eek:

PSS: Daemon would have made that 25' foot putt (Lost disc)! ;) :p

[DSproAVIAR]

PSS: Daemon would have made that 25' foot putt (Lost disc)! ;) :p



You must not have seen me putt yesterday. :)

[jonnydobos]

I had a great time at Cracked Plastic. Player's pack was sweet and met some cool out of staters during my rounds.

Just wish I would've shot as well the first round as I did the second round (from +10 to -2). Hope everyone made it home ok. 10 minutes after I got on I-94 I saw a semi nail an SUV in the back going the other way, then saw break lights up ahead. My car decided not to stop on the snow/ice and I did a 540 onto the shoulder. Luckily the car didn't hit anything and I didn't get hit.

[Dobsguy]

Man, Johnny glad you're alright. Too bad you had such a putrid first round a 2 under is hot. Who ended up winning the tourney in am1??

[KDiscin]

Well going along with this thread, although I don't remember his name, was someone who beat 2nd by ~8 throws and would have cashed 3rd in open.

He had some hot rounds.

The tournament was great!!!
THX Larry

[DweLLeR]

Well going along with this thread, although I don't remember his name, was someone who beat 2nd by ~8 throws and would have cashed 3rd in open.

He had some hot rounds.

The tournament was great!!!
THX Larry



It was Luke (not Jeff)something or another, a local, course pro?!!? He had two great rounds. I got to play both rounds with him. He shot 10 birdies each round. -7 the first one and -6 the second for -13 all day. I was the only other MA1 golfer (I think) to finish under par with a -4 all day. 9 strokes! Sheesh!! :eek: :o:p

[z Vaughn z]

Luke Riddle is his name. Kalamazoo local who has been saving up joining the PDGA till this year. Another Michigan threat is born. :D

[DSproAVIAR]

I heard he was throwing tommies and thumbers in the woods. I wish I could throw overhand.

[DweLLeR]

Luke is a good player, he'll do well. There were a few holes that he threw thumbers on, unfortunately I dont know the course well enough to indicate which holes he did that on, but I will try...hole 5, 260 right turn into the pines, he thumbed over the top. Hole ???...guardian tree right in the middle of the fairway, 30 feet off the tee....thumbed to the right of the guardian tree. Really thats about the only ones I can remember seeing him tee off using a thumber, of course he used it for some upshots as well, but not many.

[thetruthxl]

I heard he was throwing tommies and thumbers in the woods. I wish I could throw overhand.



No, thumbers and tommies don't teach you how to play disc golf. They teach you how to completely disreguard accuracy and put the sport into pure power...like a strong man competition.
I've found in developing a thumbie and tommie that I don't have to aim...just #$*&$! and huck. That's why so many "chachies" like luke are progressing faster in the sport instead of the people like us that try to play more traditional disc golf (is there such a thing as traditional disc golf??!?)

[z Vaughn z]

I heard he was throwing tommies and thumbers in the woods. I wish I could throw overhand.



No, thumbers and tommies don't teach you how to play disc golf. They teach you how to completely disreguard accuracy and put the sport into pure power...like a strong man competition.
I've found in developing a thumbie and tommie that I don't have to aim...just #$*&$! and huck. That's why so many "chachies" like luke are progressing faster in the sport instead of the people like us that try to play more traditional disc golf (is there such a thing as traditional disc golf??!?)



I'd just like to point out how full of Sh*t you are. You just say this because you have no thumber and you are jealous of the skill that is involved in throwing them. They are a very accurate and useful shot. They are not to be used in excess, but can make a player better. I use them on certain holes...exactly the same holes Luke used them, adding in hole #17.
So enough with the angst toward tommies and tomahawks, you know you'd be throwing them if you could!
Watch me throw them on holes #3 and 12 at the Lumberjack on my way to a top 5 finish......there is no Truth in your words. I think I've seen you throw thumbers on these holes :eek:

[scottcwhite]

No, thumbers and tommies don't teach you how to play disc golf. They teach you how to completely disreguard accuracy and put the sport into pure power...like a strong man competition.
I've found in developing a thumbie and tommie that I don't have to aim...just #$*&$! and huck. That's why so many "chachies" like luke are progressing faster in the sport instead of the people like us that try to play more traditional disc golf (is there such a thing as traditional disc golf??!?)



Tommies and thumbers are essential to possesing a complete game. Don't get jealous, get a better thumber :) Aim IS required for a good thumber, as well as judging the release angle and upward trajectory of the disc. It is easier to aim straight with a thumber, but harder to judge distance. So it has it's positives and negatives, but it doesn't take the skill out of disc golf.

[DSproAVIAR]

I still wish I could throw overhand. Whatever gets you to the basket, right?

[jHarr]

while livin in florida for 1.5 years and golfin down there I noticed many pretty novice/ beginner type players relying on tommies and thumbers for their game. The jungle play is thick but the canopy is much shorter so it's easier to get up and over things to advance the disc... learning to rely on these throws too much won't serve them well when/if they ever play on michigan/ non-tropical type courses where the throwing lanes might be low and long... definitely a useful throw in a quiver of techniques that work to advance the disc- but its the strength of that quiver it seems which decides the strength of your game and relying on any technique too much makes it hard to see other options...

[cbdiscpimp]

I heard he was throwing tommies and thumbers in the woods. I wish I could throw overhand.



No, thumbers and tommies don't teach you how to play disc golf. They teach you how to completely disreguard accuracy and put the sport into pure power...like a strong man competition.
I've found in developing a thumbie and tommie that I don't have to aim...just #$*&$! and huck. That's why so many "chachies" like luke are progressing faster in the sport instead of the people like us that try to play more traditional disc golf (is there such a thing as traditional disc golf??!?)



This is the worst statement I have ever read. Thats like saying throwing rollers on long holes is crap because they go further then your airshots and you cant throw a roller. Fact of the matter is if we play the same course and I tee off with ALL thumbers and shoot a 45 and you tee off with all backhands and shoot a 50 I kicked your arse and thats all that matters. At the end of the round the number of throws you had is all that matters. It doesnt matter what those throws were or how they got in the basket all that matters is they got in the basket. Thats all that matters. Golf is golf is golf is golf no matter what. There are no pictures on the score card only numbers and those are what matters. If I can throw a thumber and park a hole im going to throw a thumber. I love throwing overhand shots. Its a GREAT weapon to have. And it is a skillfull shot that can and has to be learned just like every other shot. Just cuz its easy to do and easy to learn doesnt make it any less of a good shot. So here is my advice. Shut your mouth and go learn a thumber so that when Luke whoops up on you again you dont have anything to whine about.

[ck34]

Better course design when possible keeps thumbers in balance. Your consolation is that they'll probably have a shorter career when their shoulders give out.

[mcthumber]

Better course design when possible keeps thumbers in balance.


Wishful thinking.


Your consolation is that they'll probably have a shorter career when their shoulders give out.


Have any facts to back up that assertion?

--Mike

[ck34]

The thumbers around MN know that they won't have it easy on the courses I've designed. But you obviously can't slow them down with no trees.

Every player who lived by the thumber I've played with has either been temporarily injured or permanently gave up the shot. That's about 6 people over the years personally and have heard of several others. It's just a cumulatively rougher motion on the joint compared with backhand based on discussions with chiropractors.

[mcthumber]

Oh, chiropractors.

[ck34]

More in line with a disc golfer budget, although my orthopedist agrees also.

[bruce_brakel]

My osteopath who only does body mechanics would agree with Chuck's orthopedist. That is why so many fastball pitchers are only good for five years or so in the majors and they are only throwing nine or ten innings a week.

But I also agree with Mills that fewest throws wins almost every time.

Play hard. Die young. Leave a good looking corpse.

[DSproAVIAR]

At the TADGA event at Vienna, Tim Gacioch won AM1, John Dobberstein got 2nd. Didn't hear Open scores tho. Bob got 5th with Framo.

[jonnydobos]

I don't know what they shot, but Steve Heckathorne took first in Open and Geoff Bennet took 2nd.

Where were you Daemon? I thought you were coming with Bob

[bruce_brakel]

Kelsey Brakel won advanced women. She would have finished second in Men's Rec but since the other woman was playing for free, Kelsey decided it would not be unsporting to play in the women's division.

Phil Shelton won advanced master shooting even from the shorts.

It was very cold and somewhat breezy. I think scores were kind of high for most divisions because of the need for extra layers and liberal amounts of anti-freeze.

[DSproAVIAR]

I don't know what they shot, but Steve Heckathorne took first in Open and Geoff Bennet took 2nd.

Where were you Daemon? I thought you were coming with Bob


I was going to. But the forecast changed from 25 to 5 degress. I had a rough time staying at Hudson Mills for 1 round, I don't even want to think about 2 rounds. But nice shooting Dobs! I'm sure you'll be out for March Meltdown? Anyone know what Steve Lopez finished? He's leading series points for TADGA AM1.

[jonnydobos]

Thanks Daemon. I will have to miss Meltdown this year. I'll be out of town and not getting back until the afternoon that Sunday.

I'm not sure exactly where Steve Lopez finished, but I don't think he cashed (top 8).

[ChrisWoj]

http://www.pdga.com/schedule/event.php?TournID=5643
I got the results from OSH two hours ago, and there you go they're up on the PDGA. :)

I haven't updated the Point Series standings on the TADGA site yet but the following can be confirmed...

1. Steve Heckathorne now holds a 3 point lead in OPEN MEN over Geoff Bennett.

2. Steve Lopez now holds a 1 point lead in ADVANCED MEN over Tim Gacioch. 5 over Mike Michalak and Daemon Stahlin. 6 over Bob Smart.

3. Jason Kirkaldy now holds a 1 point lead in INTERMEDIATE MEN over Jeff Bonn and myself. 4 over Tracy Rayl.

Those are the only places where there is really much of a race for the win.


-Chris.

[bruce_brakel]

Thanks for getting the scores up promptly. That is always very cool.

Kelsey said it was one of the most fun tournaments she can remember, mainly because she beat over half of the lower division men, including half of the Advanced Masters, for the first time ever. It was certainly the two highest rated rounds she has ever shot back-to-back.

[ChrisWoj]

Thanks for the compliment Bruce. I'm just trying to do what every webmaster should do. Getting things up promptly is something I pride myself on. In addition the entire TADGA POINT SERIES RESULTS ARE NOW UPDATED.

AVAILABLE HERE: http://www.tadga.com/board/portal.php?page=79

I was really impressed by Kelsey's scores by the way. And slightly embarrassed that she out-shot me in the first round at my own home course! I regained a little dignity with my second round, but major kudos to her for a great day of disc! You can tell her the results are up on TADGA as well so she can get things down in her diary ;) Haha...

Ah, and another thing: Thanks to EVERYBODY from up north in MI for coming down to the event from the A3 area, among other regions! We love having people from all over (if I could get them to put me on a card with all of these new people, I'd be ecstatic, I love playing with new people).

And remember, we have Doubles every Sunday at noon :) Usually two rounds, both 5$ and with a 1$ ace pool in the first round! If you enjoyed the tourney, same atmosphere but a little more relaxed every single Sunday!

(I feel like a carnival promoter in that last paragraph, ha!)

-Chris.

[bruce_brakel]

A couple of years ago Kelsey was tracking individual rounds but now she only tracks wins, so you won't be in the book, yet. She could have tied me in the morning but she plays poorly when I'm around and I showed up for her last hole! :eek:

And fortunately for her the Garlock sisters kind of blazed this trail so a lot of people understand that there is just this really huge gap between where amateur women mostly compete and where the pro women cash at good tournaments, so good women players usually have to spend a few years in mens rec and mens intermediate if they want to have fun in a large competitive division while they get game for the big events where the women do show up. The record keeping is just her way of setting goals and checking them off.

Kelsey was going to play mens rec, but then we heard Melissa was really good [and Kelsey said afterwards that Melissa is really good] so Kelsey decided to play the Womens division if they were playing the same tees as the ratings generators.

We're looking forward to Bowling Green. I think for the transportation to work out she has to play Adv Women and I have to play Advanced Master. Whoever is the fewest throws off the lead after the first day gets the bed and the other player sleeps in a reclining chair. We'll be camping in our conversion van!

[thetruthxl]

I'm not disreguarding thumbies and tommies. I"ve learned to meld them into my game, so don't be hatin.
I'll match some thumbies with you Orc N Nancy! :D

If you'll allow me to clarify:
A solid disc golfer has many shots in his bag. everything from a straight, flat shot to a flipped out thumbie. Choosing the best possible path is key in disc golf. Going up and over the trees may work now...but in 5 years when the trees are too tall and the shoulders are too sore, where does that leave the predominate thumber-hucker? They will have to relearn the aspects of better golf. Hell, throw'em how you can!
All I"m saying is I see a pattern around here with people that throw 80% overhand shots...they don't get better as fast as serious player that concentrate on all aspects of play. Serious players will develop, tommie huckers will drink 40oz'rs.
:cool:

[scottcwhite]

mmmmmmmm, 40 oz'rs.

[z Vaughn z]

Anyone know anything about Kimball Pines' 6 new holes they will be using for the Lumberjack?

[ChrisWoj]

I've gotta say, the Thumbers/Tomahawks were a great way to get me into the game... I came in from Ultimate and when I started throwing thumbers nonstop with my awesome NUMBER TWO DRIVER (it glowed AND floated, can we say MULTI-PURPOSE baby!?)... I was outdriving all of my fellow newbs.

It really got me competitive in my first ever tourney in April of last year in Am3 and gave me something to fall back on as the rest of my skills developed. Its a nice way to start the game.

But nowadays I'd rather throw a straight vertical spike hyzer with my Monster half of the time when a tommy used to do it for me.


-Chris.

[thetruthxl]

Anyone know anything about Kimball Pines' 6 new holes they will be using for the Lumberjack?



Couldn't get out there with the sub zero temps last weekend. We figured 20 mile/hour pine needles into your -5 degree face wasn't a good combination! /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I'm thinking about tues for some exploratory discing

[z Vaughn z]

I don't even know where they could fit in another 6.

[KDiscin]

I wouldn't be surprised if they were sprinkled throughout the course. There are some long walks and some areas where larry? would be able to squeeze in a hole or two, but I can not think of a place for 6 holes together.

[thetruthxl]

That Park is huge...we only have a small portion of the acreage. Ever wandered down that service road that we cross to get to #15 (concrete tube hole)? Check it out when you're in town next.
I think barring ungodly cold weather, kimball pines on sunday around 2pm.

[scottcwhite]

So, what is the best way to pre-reg for the Lumberjack? Is there an option other than mailing the entry form? (ie. online registration)?

[DSproAVIAR]

LL doesn't even have results up from CPC yet(Not that I want to see them). Apparently the "internet" has not reached western MI yet.

[ck34]

I believe the LL you're referring to will be at the Summit meeting and Memorial all week so it might be a longer wait.

[DSproAVIAR]

Hopefully he waits until 4/18 or later so my 1 rated CPC round will get smoothed over a bit by more rounds.

[DweLLeR]

LL doesn't even have results up from CPC yet(Not that I want to see them). Apparently the "internet" has not reached western MI yet.



Keep in mind the server crashed about the time he may have up-loaded them.

Matter of fact, Chuck, got any idea whats up with the Cross Canyon not being posted. Its an A tier and if memory serves me correctly, its required within 24 hours of completion?

[ck34]

I think getting results on that event has been a sore spot for the PDGA each year. Not sure what the story is, but maybe it maintained its A-tier status with promises from a different person who would post the stats on time? I don't know. It shouldn't be surprising for anyone who's played it before. Contact Dave at the PDGA to indicate your disappointment.

[thetruthxl]

So, what is the best way to pre-reg for the Lumberjack? Is there an option other than mailing the entry form? (ie. online registration)?



There is no online registration. Larry will be at the Memorial and PDGA conference to bid for the 2008 worlds.

I have the .pdf flyer in my email. Email me at:
thetruthxl@yahoo.com and I'll forward it to you.

[j_d]

You AM1s can rest easy for a while -- Brooke was after age-protected pros this weekend at March Madness for not playing Open Pro. :D

[bruce_brakel]

I did not fully appreciate this before, but having played a couple of tournaments now I do: 960 does not mean what 960 used to mean. I played average-for-me, consistent-for-me disc golf at the Homie, came in third in Am Master and averaged 960. That's sounds like a made-you-look joke but you can check it out. Those rounds would have been 920 and 940 in previous years.

At the TADGA ice bowl par from the shorts was rated 940 compared to 900 eleven months ago. It was a little breezy but there was no snow, no mud, no ice on the tees and almost no ice on the course. The ratings from the longs were similarly inflated.

The ratings are inflated for everyone. Not just at Vienna Park or Lemon Lake, but everywhere. Last year at Z-Boaz there was one 1050+ rated round. This year the same number of pros get six.

By the end of the year if this keeps up all amateurs will be advanced players!

[z Vaughn z]

Its a trend that you'll continue to see naturally as the sport grows. Players are going to keep getting better and better. In 20 years, it will be normal to be an Am rated 990+ cause there will be countless Pros above 1000.

see (ball) golf

[DSproAVIAR]

But Bruce is saying he's not getting better but his rating is improving. If all the other disc golfers he plays with were getting better (but Bruce wasn't), then his rating would get worse.

[bruce_brakel]

Yeah, and I think Daemon [DSproAviar] would be one of the first to happily tell you that I suck. My last eight rounds [six official and two unofficial] have averaged 950, playing with a bad knee and a bad elbow. At 2004 Worlds I averaged 935 or so healthy. I'm not better now than then but my round ratings are going way up.

Maybe its just the poor health and lack of practice working for me?

It is not personal to me. Everyone in my family saw their rating go up quite a bit at the last update. All of a sudden the PDGA has 150 advanced players rated over 950, up where Brooke is going to call them a bunch of baggers. Used to be all 50 of them should have been thinking of going pro. I think it is ratings inflation.

You can't buy a cup of coffee anymore with a 950 rating!

[DSproAVIAR]

I wouldn't say that. You shot better than me a few times last year when we played the same tourney. But this trend shows one of two things, correct?
1. Disc Golfers in general are getting worse.
2. The same scores on the same courses are getting better ratings, recently.
Are there any other possible conclusions?

edited-Upon further investigation, you shot better scores than me at 100% of tournaments that we both played in 2005.

[ChrisWoj]

Bruce,

It all depends on the propogators (propAgators? spelling?)... for example, your second round at Vienna you only shot a few strokes off of a 989 rated player (Geoff Bennett). Thats the thing, high rated players were shooting certain scores and the rating goes off of who is playing and with what rating.

Now if you shot that same exact score and you were playing with a tournament full of 900-920 rated players only and shooting the same scores as them, two strokes off of them, etc... Your rating would be lower. Your consistent play was two strokes off of Bennett, only a stroke off of other similarly rated players...

It just all depends on the guys that the course rating is generated off of.



-Chris.

[thetruthxl]

Bruce,
It sounds like if you start smoking cubans and sipping on fine 15 year bourbon....and take a stick to the eye, you'll be a 1000 rated player in no time!!!
;)

[ChrisWoj]

Bruce,
It sounds like if you start smoking cubans and sipping on fine 15 year bourbon....and take a stick to the eye, you'll be a 1000 rated player in no time!!!
;)


How to get rid of a Mark Stubbs...

"Hey look, over there, a Ram! Fetch boy, fetch!"

[thetruthxl]

Sounds like Chris wants a one disc challenge! "What you gonna do when RamaMania runs wild on you!?!"
:D