double standards

Can anyone explain to me why it is that women are allowed to wear sleevless shirts at NT events and men have to wear a sleeve to the elbow. what gives here? seems like the pdga has 2 different sets of rules one for men and the other for women. seems like there would be the same set of rules for everyone.


the nub

It does create two sets of rules rather than one. I'd like to see the rule simplified so it doesn't discriminate against men :eek:

[Rodney Gilmore]

Dude, theres already 2 or 3 threads about this. Do we need another one? Look here http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=223964&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

[rhett]

Can someone please explain to me why it is that women can compete in the men's divisions at PDGA sanctioned events, but men can't compete in the women's divisions? What gives here? Seems like the pdga has 2 different sets of rules: one for men and the other for women. Seems like there would be the same set of rules for everyone.

[Blarg]

Hairy armpits.

[sandalman]

Can anyone explain to me why it is that women are allowed to wear sleevless shirts at NT events and men have to wear a sleeve to the elbow. what gives here? seems like the pdga has 2 different sets of rules one for men and the other for women. seems like there would be the same set of rules for everyone.

because dont swear at the top of their lungs, dont throw metal minis into baskets, dont burp and fart while driving (or while their opponents are driving), and generally dont act like idiots the way men do.

the pdga rewarded them with the right to not wear sleeves. i heard that when men improve their behavior they might a gold star and be allowed to wear sleeveless shirts also.
:D

[bruce_brakel]

I've noticed at my work that women can get away with a jacket and a silk t-shirt looking thing for courtroom apparel whereas I have to wear a jacket, collared shirt and tie.

This double standard abounds.

Why collars and sleeves for the men? To keep blue-collar types from feeling too welcome :mad:

I've noticed at my work that women can get away with a jacket and a silk t-shirt looking thing for courtroom apparel whereas I have to wear a jacket, collared shirt and tie.

This double standard abounds.



At my work, we have a written dress code. Women are not allowed to wear skirts that are shorter than 2 inches above the knee. There is no restriction on how short men's skirts can be.

The difference here is with regard to sleeves. (btw if men started wearing distractingly short skirts where you work it is a pretty safe bet that a length requirement similar to the women's would be implemented). In Europe many women do not shave their pits, and I doubt the PDGA makes its rules to only apply to North Americans.

Unnecessarily restricting the freedom of players to dress in the way in which they are most comfortable does not promote a feeling of inclusion. If decent-looking clothes that aren't cut-off is the goal, surely that can be accomplished without a sleeve requirement. Sports like basketball are able to do quite well with sponsors despite the sleeveless uniforms.

The goal of creating a professional atmosphere for the PDGA NT is a good one, but an unecessarily restrictive dress code isn't helpful. To create an atmosphere of inclusion, decision-makers should consider not just what they are comfortable with, but what others will be comfortable with as well. It seems to me lightening up the dress code while maintaining basic standards is the sensible thing to do.

[Lyle O Ross]

Dear Rules Committee,

It seems that some male players in the PDGA are upset that women get to wear sleeveless shirts when they do not. Could you please change the rules to read "Men and women are allowed to wear tasteful, sleeveless collared shirts as designated above."

With Regards,

Tempest in a Teacup

Boy are you guys going to look cute... /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Boy are you guys going to look cute... /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif



are you afraid that if men can go sleeveless you'll be attracted to them? /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[scottsearles]

:D I second the above motion. :D

but not the :oCUTE part.

[cwphish]

I know of a guy who split his shorts during a round, so in essence was wearing a skirt/skort type thing. Very unbecoming. Can we get this added into the rule as a no-no too, so that we don't start a cross dressing division.

[Paul Taylor]

I will agree with Lyle, maybe it should be an option to the male gender, but.......

I wouldn't come to a tourney in TEXAS wearing one, unless you are playing near downtown Austin. :D

By the way, a t-shirt with the arms torn off, is not the same thing.

I know of a guy who split his shorts during a round, so in essence was wearing a skirt/skort type thing. Very unbecoming. Can we get this added into the rule as a no-no too, so that we don't start a cross dressing division.




LMAO! :D

[Lyle O Ross]

I don't understand Rob. If I were afraid why would I propose that you be allowed to wear a sleeveless shirt? In point of fact, my guess would be that most *** men would not wear such a shirt. That is what you were implying - that somehow there was some *** issue here? Or did I misunderstand your comment? As for the Boy are you guys going to look cute /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif comment, it had a couple of implications.

1) It is a comment to the guys out there that think that women are allowed to wear these shirts because they are somehow cute.

2) It is a straight forward comment to the guys who are making an issue out of this instead of sticking to their real issue, "I want to wear a sleevless shirt." Instead of doing that they are playing the sex card. I've never really appreciated this tact, but do admit that it works.

3) The smirk reinforces point two, that is I suspect this really isn't the issue for you and that most likely you don't really care about it. If it were really the issue I would expect that to make your point you will be wearing a collared, sleeveless shirt in your upcoming tournaments.

Make sure someone brings a camera, I'm dying to see the pictures.

Lyle, your "boy are you guys going to look cute" comment sounded like it hinged on homophobia and tried to put fear of looking *** into the mindset of those who advocate that the sleeveless clause in the dress code be gender neutral.

I personally do not like the collar or the sleeve rule. When it is hot I am far more comfortable playing in a shirt without sleeves -- just as I was when I was younger and played Ultimate 4 times a week. I appreciate the interest in presenting a decent image and have no problem with a rule that requires clean, non cut-off clothing which is free of potentially offensive language.

I am not close to being able to compete with the boys on the tour, but when I play in PDGA tournaments in temperatures above 65 degrees, I wear sleeveless shirts without collars.

Although I have a Master's degree, I have never felt comfortable in 'white-collar' clothes, and prefer not to look like someone who just might be a card carrying Republican. I realize a polo shirt isn't exactly formal wear, but for me it really is a slippery slope :p One of the things I love about disc golf is that it has a much more inclusive feel to it than does ball golf. I think we should maintain that emphasis and not try to be something we're not. Of course lightening up the dress code would allow everyone to dress comfortably -- and I am fairly sure a majority of NT players would stick with sleeves and collars.

So the concern I have with the dress code is that it fails to allow that minority of persons like myself who do not feel comfortable with collars and/or sleeves to dress comfortably.
If I do conform and wear a polo shirt (I do own some btw) please do not photograph me. As to your fascination with photos of those of us who advocate a rule which allows shirts without sleeves -- I can only imagine what is driving it.

[dischick]

this might be stupid, but do they actually make sleevless collared shirts for men? or would you be wearing a womens shirt, or "blouse" in this case?
if you noticed from the 2003 NT handbook, it said that women were not aloud to wear midriffs, but it said nothing about the men being able to wear midriffs.

to ask the question why cant men play in the womens, but women can play in the mens?
that is just stupid. its an implication that you must suc, and therefore would rather play in the womens since your only defense would be you can throw farther since you have man power. heres an idea, have a sex change then go for the womens world title.

[neonnoodle]

Dress code is basically a sport uniform issue. Compared to other sports our dress code still allows an huge degree of freedom.

I don't know about you, but I will only be playing in about 6 A tier or higher PDGA events this year, so this is a miniscule issue for me.

I generally wear a collared shirt when I play anyway, particularly since they are the most comfortable shirts I own.

Something that might help is if you think of it like using a mini during rounds, this way it is just like any other rule; it is something you can just practice into your game. If you don’t like it, then like marking your lie with a mini (instead of flipping it) perhaps PDGA competition just isn’t for you…

What's really funny about this to me is that people think that if they complain about it being a double standard, the solution will be to allow men to wear sleeveless shirts. If anything changes, I'm willing to bet that it would be that woment wouldn't be allowed to wear sleveless shirts anymore and the dress code for guys wouldn't change. If equality is what people are really after then that would be just as good of a solution. Would everyone be OK with that?

[slowmo_1]

could we possibly make a bigger deal about such a small issue?!? If you don't like the collared shirt rule because the sleeevs are just to long then get yourself a soccer uniform jersey. Many of them have collars but have sleeves about half the length of golf shirts. They also breathe better and you can stay fairly cool in them.

Nick said:

If you don’t like it, then like marking your lie with a mini (instead of flipping it) perhaps PDGA competition just isn’t for you…



I guess that's Nick's way of saying "America, love it or leave it." But don't ever say that on the Presidential Election thread, or he'll jump all over you.

I prefer the credo, "If you don't like the rule, then do something to change the rule".

A 'dress code' can be implemented that presents a 'positive image' (whatever that is) but doesn't turn the sport into everything many of us disdain about PGA-style golf. I would request that the competition director and/or whoever else is responsible for such things please consider an amendment to the current policy.

[neonnoodle]

Actually, if it is a uniform issue, which I believe it to be, women can and often do have different uniforms than men and it really is not a big deal that they do.

And Dan, I am all for trying to improve things; what I am saying is that the decision to have a dress code is likely "non-negotiable” as concerns major disc golf events, so if you want to improve it, then let’s have at it, but that it is not important enough and issue to engage in civil disobedience at tournaments where it is in effect.

Particularly when it is quite apparent (Terry’s posts) that a sympathetic ear on the PDGA BOD does exist.

This can all be done through normal channels without the need to act like strong emotions or reactions.

(All of which is very dissimilar to the Presidential Debate where the balance of human history hangs by a thread…)

[Lyle O Ross]

Lyle, your "boy are you guys going to look cute" comment sounded like it hinged on homophobia and tried to put fear of looking *** into the mindset of those who advocate that the sleeveless clause in the dress code be gender neutral.




In this I do agree with you Rob, but only if you came to the comment with your own homophobia. As I stated in my last post, I do not think that the average *** man would wear such a shirt, so how would that convey a *** context? In fact, the context and setting of the post was poking fun of those who have turned this into a gender issue. Your pulling of the homophobia issue into the discussion was an effective redirection, but ignored the true issue, that of the value of wearing a sleeveless shirt while playing in tournaments. Your purposeful misinterpretation of it as a homophobia issue and insistence on that perspective is interesting. If I understand your most recent post, your feeling is that I am trying to make some subset of the PDGA feel as if they are "***" for wanting to wear sleeveless shirts? Let me assure you, that was not my intent. Nope, I simply wanted a hearty laugh at those who are insisting that it is somehow unfair that men should have to wear sleeved shirts when women do not. This position ignores the greater context of our society as a whole, which deems that a collared, sleeveless shirt on a woman is indeed equivalent to a polo on a male.

I too feel that sleeved shirts are not the most comfortable wear for me. But I will give you two points to consider.

1) I have yet to hear a single complaint on this issue from the elite players. Obviously it is not affecting their play enough for them to complain. My guess is they are more interested in their play than in the clothes they are wearing. Even more so, they may understand the benefit of the legitimacy that a professional look might bring to their wallets.

2) Take a look at the Worlds Video when it comes out and think about looking at that video in the context of a sponsor. Will you see a bunch of guys running around playing with their friends or will you see a professional organization?

Yes, I know the NBA and other sports play in sleeveless shirts. These are uniforms. They bring respectability in the nature of being a uniform. A bunch of guys in uniformed (for example, no logos or I drink bud commentary) sleeveless shirts might look presentable and perhaps this is what the BOD is now considering (I wouldn't count on it though). However, if our ultimate goal is to grow the sport, then this is a legitimate issue and should be treated as such. Ignoring it is ignoring the history and reputation of the sport. Our reputation, historically (whether true or not) is that of a bunch of drugged out party boys. For legitimacy and growth we have to combat that image. That means being better than good, it means being excellent. I've run into this in every job I have ever had. It isn't just Republicans that wear suits, Dems do, Doctors do, Lawyers do. The reason why is that they get taken more seriously that way. Whether or not they deserve it is a different issue. To ignore the fact that the public views your legitimacy in the context of the clothes you wear is naive.

You will note that the PDGA has not insisted that players wear the "uniform" at all tournaments. As is usual, they have chosen to compromise. They understand the nature of the sport very well and have tried to implement rules that will help to gain legitimacy where it truly matters, in those events where they are working media and sponsorship coverage.

Finally, I fail to see how the clothing we wear will make us into the PGA (or Republicans for that matter). The individuals involved in the PDGA are what will ultimately determine the demeanor of the sport, not the clothing we wear. But the clothing we wear will determine how the public views us.

[rocknrog]

STRONG LEADERSHIP, STRONGER PR, PLAYER PERSONALITIES, EXEMPLARY PLAY & INSIGHTFUL COMMENTATORS are the only things that will get PDGA on the MAP. And the 300 to 400 people @ worlds isn't gonna make it happen either, would you watch yourself play on TV, honestly? I wouldn't. The 1000 rated players if presented right could draw interest. Our problem is we have an association for 7000+ trying to make it happen. They can not possibly make everyone happy and achieve this goal.

Split off the AM's from the Pro's for starters and the TOUR CARD pro's from the local club pro's. Then focus each organization on the needs of the player's they represent.

PDGA men's touring pro's
LPDGA ladies
SPDGA men's semi pro or local pro's
ADGA Am Mens & Womens

Then make guidelines & rules for each.
This sytem has worked for golf and dress codes vary per organization.

The most important of these is the PDGA to get top Pro's noticed and covered by at least ESPN2 or Fox Sports. But who is going to Commentate the events? We need an articulate ambasador or a star, musician, celebrity or some NAME to help get us jump started.

So I think a Celebrity PRO AM event in SO CAL is the first step to getting us noticed. That's my thought's!

Post deleted by robj

[gnduke]

[QUOTE]
I guess I failed to realize that using the norms of our grandparents is the way to go.[\quote]

Well the norms of today's athletics are speedos and bikinis. Maybe we should try that, just not for the OMB division.

[dischick]

i think that peopl ewill always find something to complain about. is it that big of a deal? first of all women create 1% of the people who play the sport, if even that. and someone now has a problem bcuz they can choose to wear a sleeveless shirt. someone sounds like a whining am. i have a tons of collared shirts cuz i have mostly played a tiers or NTs this year. and of those, i have 1 sleeveless one, which i almost never wear. so because the women want to look nice someone is gonna come out and complaine. i say deal with it. its time to find a new topic to whine about. no one ever did answer my question though......do they even make sleevelss collared shirts for men? or are you gonna have to shop in the womens department?

[QUOTE]

The most important of these is the PDGA to get top Pro's noticed and covered by at least ESPN2 or Fox Sports. But who is going to Commentate the events? We need an articulate ambasador or a star, musician, celebrity or some NAME to help get us jump started. [QUOTE]


Sounds like a great idea.

dischick, I don't think anyone was ever complaining about women being allowed to wear sleeveless clothes, it was rather that men could not. It would probably have been more sensible for the PDGA to not differentiate between men and women in that regard. Did World Champ Juliana already wear collared sleeveless shirts when the dress code was implemented?

I want our sport to appeal to teens. Teens naturally rebel against societal norms and that is why Rock bands don't wear collared shirts. I am not suggesting the dress code insist players have outrageous hair styles and clothing, wear chains and have tattoos and be pierced in at least two places. But I do think using ball golf as our model for success is a mistake.

If looking professional is really what we're after, why don't we require men to be clean shaven and have short hair?

could we possibly make a bigger deal about such a small issue?!? If you don't like the collared shirt rule because the sleeevs are just to long then get yourself a soccer uniform jersey. Many of them have collars but have sleeves about half the length of golf shirts. They also breathe better and you can stay fairly cool in them.



I never noticed how many soccer jerseys have collars on them. Those wouldn't be a bad look for disc golfers.

[dischick]

well i still dont know what the big deal is. i am havin a hard time with understanding why guys want to wear sleeveless collared shirts. i am still waiting to hear from someone where you can get them, or if they are gonna wear womens clothing. its youre perogative, and if someone wants to wear womens clothing, whatever.
i liked that at worlds, the advanced had to wear the collared shirts. it makes the players look more respectful. one thing i hate to see at tournaments is guys walkin around during play without any shirt on. for one that is tackey as all heII, and for 2, its not like i could do that.
all i am sayin is what is the big deal? so women have a different dress code, and it is not all that different. can they not where sleeveless shirts in the LPGA?
i think one thing that holds disc golf back from ever being HUGE is the lack of respect. collered shirts definatley make the looks of the game more respectible. but what would you think if you turned on the latest golf event and saw tiger in a sleevless shirt? i would laugh my *** off i am sure.
every year when there are new rules, or the past 2 years with the NT handbook i see people pic the ***** outta every little detail. cmon, is it really that big of a deal? is there any guy who has a closet full of sleeveless collared shirts? and is unable to wear them to tournaments?
i just want to know where you can get sleeveless collared shirts for men. untill someone can let me know, i will think this thread is an absolute waiste of time, and just a thread for people to come whine on.awwwwww poor babaies, women can wear sleeveless shirts and you cant. get over it.

[sandalman]

"to ask the question why cant men play in the womens, but women can play in the mens?"

there is no such division as "Men's xxxxxxx" Its "Open" and any member of the human race, plus republicans, can play in it. "Women's" division are gender protected division, just like "Masters" is age-protected.

I found some sleeveless men's collared shirts. After seeing these, I fully endorse changing the rule to allow men to wear these shirts. I think these shirts look great and can't wait to see some guys sporting these at the next NT.

Men's collared sleeveless shirts! (http://www.internationalmale.com/dept.asp?dept_id=10030&cm_ven=GoogleAdwords&cm_cat =search&cm_ite=menssleevelessshirts&code=macs=IM3A GOOG)
This one's even better! (http://www.northbound.com/pages/6302.htm) ---note, you have to scroll down about halfway thru just blackness in order to see the men's sleeveless collared shirt.

I'm sure there's more out there. I'll post 'em if I find 'em!

[cbdiscpimp]

SLEEVES DONT RESTRICT YOUR MOTION. Stop whining about having to wear sleeves. Look professional at the HIGH tier events or go play b and c tiers. Its not that big a deal. BALLGOLFERS wear sleeves and they have just as much arm motion as we do PLUS they are using BOTH arms not just one. If you going to complain atleast complain about something worth while and not something that has NO BASIS

[scoop]

do they even make sleevelss collared shirts for men? or are you gonna have to shop in the womens department?



These shirts (http://www.underarmour.com/ua2/ua/detail.asp?dept_id=5&pf_id=0043&mscssid=) have a mock collar, look great, and would meet the current collar rule; they just don't have sleeves. Plus, unlike cotton polo shirts, they are designed for athletes and serious competition. These shirts would look as professional as a collared shirt, but would also give the impression that are sport is athletic in nature.

[rhett]

there is no such division as "Men's xxxxxxx" Its "Open" and any member of the human race, plus republicans, can play in it. "Women's" division are gender protected division, just like "Masters" is age-protected.



Check your official PDGA acronyms for the divisions. What does the "M" in "MPO" and "MPM" stand for? :)

Oh, and for the mentally challeneged, I think the whole "crying about sleeves" thing is exceptionally silly, and I made the comment about women playing in the men's division because it is equally silly. I was hoping people would see th silliness of both instead of thinking I was actually mad about women playing in men's divisions!

Mills, your post that is "Re: Jon Brakel" makes no sense to me. I have done no whining about sleeves. I don't have a problem with wearing sleeved shirts.

do they even make sleevelss collared shirts for men? or are you gonna have to shop in the womens department?



These shirts (http://www.underarmour.com/ua2/ua/detail.asp?dept_id=5&pf_id=0043&mscssid=) have a mock collar, look great, and would meet the current collar rule; they just don't have sleeves. Plus, unlike cotton polo shirts, they are designed for athletes and serious competition. These shirts would look as professional as a collared shirt, but would also give the impression that are sport is athletic in nature.



I think those shirts look professional. Do they come with the 6-pack insert, because that would be cool! And it'd be the only way I'm going to have a 6-pack! :D

[gnduke]

After looking at those 2 pages, I think it is probably a good thing that men are not allowed to wear sleveless collarred shirts.

I've got to figure that enough people have expressed their opinions that the BOD should revisit this issue. Hopefully if the rule isn't changed they at least word it more carefully.

[dischick]

i think the leather would be HOT!, you might not want to wear one on a hot day, but i would love to see some stud sportin one of those. oh wait, until the rules are changed, you cant! hahahaha, but i can! i think i might order one!
jon, just to clarify from how mills replied, i did not reply any of my posts on this thread to the right person. all of mine are directed to the person who started the thread, i just hit reply at the last post. sorry if there was any confusion.

[sandalman]

Check your official PDGA acronyms for the divisions. What does the "M" in "MPO" and "MPM" stand for? :)

acronym shmacronym. the acronym has little to do with the division name. read this (http://www.pdga.com/player_class.php). many of the acronyms are ill-conceived.

[cbdiscpimp]

These shirts have a mock collar, look great, and would meet the current collar rule; they just don't have sleeves. Plus, unlike cotton polo shirts, they are designed for athletes and serious competition. These shirts would look as professional as a collared shirt, but would also give the impression that are sport is athletic in nature.



First offf those shirts dont look proffesional AT ALL. They are skin tight and designed to go UNDER a professional athletes UNIFORM. Which perhaps is the reason they call it UNDER ARMOR. Even if that shirt DID have sleeves it still wouldnt look proffesional because it is skin tight. Which by being skin tight it would cause more restriction then a PROFESSIONAL looking loose fitting POLO shirt.

Second off are you trying to say that sports you wear a collared shirt in are not ATHLETIC. Im pretty sure you have to be athletic to be a GOOD or PROFESSIONAL ball golfer. You have to wear a collared shirt when you play proffesional ball golf. Which brings me to my 3rd point. Ball golfers wear collared shirts and they have WAY MORE arm motion in there swing then we do in any of our throws. PLUS they use BOTH ARMS to swing a club unlike our 1 arm to throw a disc. Therefore IMO if they can play in collared shirts and not have it affect the way they play then we sure as HELL better be able to do it since we dont even have to tuck ours in and THEY DO. Tucking in MIGHT be and i say MIGHT be the only thing that restricts your motion but even then Schweb, Barry, Brad Hammock and a number of other pros all tuck their COLLARED shirts in when they play.

So i say quit whining about having to wear a collared shirt because the rule isnt going to change and your going to wear a collared shirt when you play in A Tiers, Super Tours, Majors and NT events so you might as well quit complaining about it.

If you want to you could not play in all the GREAT events that the PDGA holds and you could play B and C Tiers where the pay outs and players packs are less and the competition isnt as good and you can wear your skin tight under armor all you want.

This is just my opinion i could be wrong, but IM NOT :D

do they even make sleevelss collared shirts for men? or are you gonna have to shop in the womens department?



These shirts (http://www.underarmour.com/ua2/ua/detail.asp?dept_id=5&pf_id=0043&mscssid=) have a mock collar, look great, and would meet the current collar rule; they just don't have sleeves. Plus, unlike cotton polo shirts, they are designed for athletes and serious competition. These shirts would look as professional as a collared shirt, but would also give the impression that are sport is athletic in nature.



I'd have to agree with Jon that there are several threads already discussing this and if they come w/ the six-pack inserts.. ;) that is cool... these shirts sure looked fitted from arms/pecks all the way down to waist like for someone w/ a tight, firm tummy area.... how many of you like wearing fitted shirts like that? the arm area looks really nice and the collar.. but the rest seems a bit restricting for many who don't like fitted clothing in the first place.. didn't even see what material they are made of.. kinda has like a nylon/spandex look..but I would think most would rather wear sleeves and a loose shirt than something that is snug to their chest/tummy area..if this seems cool for most..then petition the PDGA ... go for it.. the underarm part is cool.. covers the pits nicely I would think for most..

I'm a tiny person and even this seems too fitted for me to wear out in the heat to play disc golf for even casual rounds.. I'd rather have something more loose and gives more..so if I chose this top..I'd have to go up a couple of sizes for me to have freedom to move well.. but that is just my own opinion.. thnx for sharing the site rooster..

[cbdiscpimp]

Mills, your post that is "Re: Jon Brakel" makes no sense to me. I have done no whining about sleeves. I don't have a problem with wearing sleeved shirts.



That reply wasnt directed at you it was a reply to the people who ARE whining about having to wear collared shirts i just happend to click on your post to reply to. Sorry if i offended or confused you. That post wasnt directed toward you in any way.

ok...nevermind...

[gnduke]

In favor of the tight fitting flexible shirts, Back in the day when I had a more atheletic build, and a midsection that would look good in that type shirt, I wore tight clothing for sporting events. The closest I got to DG back then was ultimate, but I did not find that type of shirt restrictive. Your midsection really doesn't move around that much unless it is more like the midsection I have now. :D

If I still had, or manage to regain a midsection like the one suggested in the picture of the under armour shirt, I will probably have to get a few of those. :D

WHAT IF .........Nike, Addidas, or another major sporting corporation designed and marketed a line of clothing specifically for disc golf. What type and style of clothing do you think they would develop for the sport?

Can someone please explain to me why it is that women can compete in the men's divisions at PDGA sanctioned events, but men can't compete in the women's divisions? What gives here? Seems like the pdga has 2 different sets of rules: one for men and the other for women. Seems like there would be the same set of rules for everyone.



This isn't helping ya any Rhett I'm sure..but wanted to let you all know that if you go to your local hair salon and a woman walks in w/ shoulder length hair you get charged anywhere from $25 up... a male w/ the same length hair gets charged $17.50 up.. (Rhett you are a different story all on your own..that's alot of hair man.. :D) I can tease ya now that I met you.. :D ..The same goes for a dry cleaners.. you take a mans short sleeved; collared dress shirt in to get it laundered, not dry cleaned, just laundered.. it will run somewhere like $1.85 up... a womans short sleeve shirt w/ a collar is in the classification as a 'blouse'.. it runs $2.50 up... alterations for a woman's shirt or pants run a tad bit higher than a mans around here.. this is just a couple of inexpensive few businesses in my area.. yours may vary of course...

Bottom line women and men will never be equal no matter how hard we try to make it seem that way... we women pay more for our hair cuts and dry cleaning and just go on I don't agree with it..but oh well.. such is life.. not lecturing anyone..just sharing some info I thought I'd toss in about equality of women and men.... /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[gnduke]

Probably something similar to their existing ball golf lines.

[sandalman]

WHAT IF .........Nike, Addidas, or another major sporting corporation designed and marketed a line of clothing specifically for disc golf. What type and style of clothing do you think they would develop for the sport?

hey, excellant question!

i would bet it would be extremely loose fitting sleeves and shorts for summer, and long sleeved loose fitting layers for winter. the reason i say sleeves for summer is that designing tanktops for a specific sport is kinda silly. if a tanktop works, its already designed.

[rocknrog]

Probably something similar to their existing ball golf lines.



You ARE kidding Right? PDGA needs a make over and it's own identity not borrowing from PGA. We need a Publicity Machine & some hype to grow. I wanna be like "Cam" or "Ken" or "Barry" where are the TV ads from Innova & Discraft? Oh, I could go on & on, Now get Nike to become interested & look out, does Nike know the "PATENT" as Expired?

I don't think they would use exisiting designs for clothes or shoes, they would be very creative, they are marketing geniuses for sure. Not to mention the mass produced discs that could come from the pacific rim or asian sweat shops, oh to dream to dream....

[bambam]

...Not to mention the mass produced discs that could come from the pacific rim or asian sweat shops, oh to dream to dream....

Dude, that's sad :(

[circle_2]

'Dress code rule wording' should be designed for TDs/Marshalls to make any violation an easy call.

Quantitative rule aspects are less judgemental, ie "covering the upper arm"...while qualitative aspects are more judgmental, ie "tasteful" or "appropriate".

I believe that rules violations based on qualitative aspects introduce bias, and therefore can & will be held to a large amount of scrutiny.

Do I have a solution to all this? No. But, I do believe that a professionally sanctioned tournament should be run professionally, played professionally, and judged professionally...by the professional folks who choose to show up.

Of course, all this would change for me if my scrub shirts were found to be in violation of this silly dress code!! /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[rocknrog]

...Not to mention the mass produced discs that could come from the pacific rim or asian sweat shops, oh to dream to dream....

Dude, that's sad :(



Yeah, but that's what success will bring to our sport!

Of course, all this would change for me if my scrub shirts were found to be in violation of this silly dress code!! /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif



I have never seen a scrub top with a collar. All of the scrub tops that I have seen have a v-neck with no collar--but maybe there is a different style out there. The ones I've seen could not be worn legally at an NT or Major in my opinion.

[circle_2]

NOW...I'm pi$$ed off!!!!! :o:D:p

[rocknrog]

Doctors aren't professionals, come on Doc you should know that, LOL :p

Second off are you trying to say that sports you wear a collared shirt in are not ATHLETIC. Im pretty sure you have to be athletic to be a GOOD or PROFESSIONAL ball golfer. You have to wear a collared shirt when you play proffesional ball golf. Which brings me to my 3rd point. Ball golfers wear collared shirts and they have WAY MORE arm motion in there swing then we do in any of our throws. PLUS they use BOTH ARMS to swing a club unlike our 1 arm to throw a disc. Therefore IMO if they can play in collared shirts and not have it affect the way they play then we sure as HELL better be able to do it since we dont even have to tuck ours in and THEY DO. Tucking in MIGHT be and i say MIGHT be the only thing that restricts your motion but even then Schweb, Barry, Brad Hammock and a number of other pros all tuck their COLLARED shirts in when they play.

So i say quit whining about having to wear a collared shirt because the rule isnt going to change and your going to wear a collared shirt when you play in A Tiers, Super Tours, Majors and NT events so you might as well quit complaining about it.




Why are you personalizing this when noone is whining -- we are just airing our view that the PDGA would do well to reconsider its collar and sleeves rule. And remember, while it appears the PDGA will lighten up the dress code at least a little, all you collar and sleeve guys will be welcome to continue to wear your customary attire.

Ball golf dress comes from a background of snobbish classism and is probably not the best model for disc golf to emulate. (These were traditionally people who insisted they perspired and never sweated). When we put disc golf side by side with ball golf it makes our sport look inferior if we are going to use the traditional standards of ball golf. Therefore imo, it is far better to present ourselves as a break from ball golf than a spin-off from it. Otherwise, the 'we want nice clothes' crowd will find a more suitable home in old school ball golf.

Food for thought: Real atheletes don't work out or play in clothing that they could wear to work.

More food for thought:
Professional Athletes wear nice looking uniforms, not something that I'd be embarrased to wear when I'm doing yard work.


I think there's room for some middle ground.

I think there's room for some middle ground.



I agree. The thing many dress code enthusiasts seem to miss is that lightening up the dress code a bit probably would not change what 90% of the NT players show up wearing. Making the rule as inclusive as possible makes sense.

These shirts (http://www.underarmour.com/ua2/ua/detail.asp?dept_id=5&pf_id=0043&mscssid=) have a mock collar, look great, and would meet the current collar rule; they just don't have sleeves. Plus, unlike cotton polo shirts, they are designed for athletes and serious competition. These shirts would look as professional as a collared shirt, but would also give the impression that are sport is athletic in nature.



Good example. Any who complain you have to be in great shape to look good in them should get to work to get in shape. That will reflect better on the sport of disc golf than merely wearing collars and sleeves. It would underscore the physiological benefits of playing disc golf too at a time when Americans are becoming too obese. If the dress code allowed this type of athletic shirt, noone would be compelled to wear them either. Many would stick with collars and sleeves. Sponsored players might get their choice. More choice is a good thing.

[gnduke]

You mean I abs like that don't come with the shirts.

I'd better cancel my order. :D

[cbdiscpimp]

Real atheletes don't work out or play in clothing that they could wear to work.



So your saying the pro baseball, hockey, football, soccer, ball golf, tennis, and every other person who plays a proffesional athletic sport arent real athletes. You have got to be out of your mind because im pretty sure they work out in pretty much the same thing they WEAR TO WORK IN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Under Armor is not proffesional looking. Its supposed to go UNDER what you actually wear. Hence the name UNDER ARMOR. Its this thin nylon stretchy material that does not look very proffesional IMO. It make look athletic but its sure as heck doesnt look proffesional. Maybe if the collar wasnt just floppy and hanging there and it had some kind of shape. I myself dont think that anything skin tight looks very proffesional unless it is on a woman. They can wear tight fitting clothes and still be proffesional in my opinion.

I dont understand whats so wrong with wearing a collar and sleeves. It looks good on TV and when people come and watch us. I just think that if we are going to have proffesionals they should look proffesional. Collared shirts and nice shorts looks proffesional no matter what anyone has to say about it. Its an individual sport so there has to be some kind of dress code.

I myself like the collared shirt rule and i think we should stick with it and untill someone comes up with a valid reason why it should be changed then i will continue to think and speak the way i do now. Im not trying to offend anyone im just speaking what i think.

I myself love going out and buying collared shirts that will stand out in a crowd. I love it when people told me they could tell where i was on the course all day at DMACC because of the bright collared shirt i had on. I actually think my collared shirts that i play in are easier to throw in then the T Shirts that i wear.

[tbender]

Under Armor also makes Loose Gear, which is basically a T-shirt in their material, along with their tighter, under uniform apparel.

[cbdiscpimp]

I still dont think that it looks proffesional. Now if they come out with a nice collared shirt in maybe the same material or a little bit heavier then you would be allowed to wear it but as of no no collar no sleeves no playing for you.

I dont understand whats so wrong with wearing a collar and sleeves. It looks good on TV and when people come and watch us. I just think that if we are going to have proffesionals they should look proffesional. Collared shirts and nice shorts looks proffesional no matter what anyone has to say about it. Its an individual sport so there has to be some kind of dress code.



You and many others will continue to be able to wear what you think puts the best face on our sport if the dress code is lightened up. I am not in favor of forcing you out of a collar and sleeves. Why not allow those who would prefer to wear a men's mock sleeveless t the same right? I think a disc golfer in great shape wearing a mock sleeveless t with Innova or Discraft embroidered on it will be the kind of athletic image we want an overweight public at large to associate with us.
Lets give future stars that choice. Sponsors would likely offer sleeved versions for colder weather and sleeveless for hot. Players could choose a few of each or one or the other. Most of us would of course be on our own and have to buy them :D

[cbdiscpimp]

I just think that men in sleevless attire doesnt look proffesional at all. Athletic YES but proffesional i dont think so even if it has a collar.

Im am a ball golfer and have been since the age of about 2 when i sat in my car seat and watched my dad hit balls on the range for hours and hours and if i ever saw a guy at a golf course with a sleevless collared shirt on i would be like what the HELL is he doing that looks terrible. So maybe im byist because i have had to wear collared shirts on GOLF courses my whole life and i like the way they look.

Well, the roots of ball golf go back to when only the upper class played. Why not set a dress code that is more inclusive? If you have noticed -- that's where ball golf is headed. We should consider what will appeal to kids and teens. Wearing sleeved, collared shirts is fine. Let's just not force it on everyone who aspires to compete at the highest levels.

Disc Golf -- this is not ball golf, thank heaven.

[cbdiscpimp]

If you want to compete at a high level then you should dress to that level. Everyone can afford a collared shirt. Its not just an upper class clothing item and if you think that it is you are just being ignorant. Sorry to say but if you want to play with the pros then youll have to dress like the pros.

Im also tired of hearing everyone compare this sport to basketball and football and baseball and every other PROFFESIONAL TEAM sport. They all have uniforms. This is and INDIVIDUAL sport for the most part so you cannot make a comparison with any team sports. The valid refrences are to ball golf and tennis and sports where they play as individuals and not as a team. So i dont think that the " hey basketball players all wear tank top jerseys is even relevant because they are a TEAM sports not an individual sport which by the way there TUCK those jerseys in :o Heavin forbid tucking them in might just affect Kobes or Rips JUMP SHOT. Get real tucking in your shirt or wearing sleeves doesnt affect your play at all unless it works you mentally and you make yourself believe you cant play in sleeves and a tucked in shirt. If you dont want to wear a collared shirt just play unsactioned or play sanctioned B and C Tiers. The only thing ball golf has changed is tiger can wear his Mock Collars when he plays. They still look proffesional because they are a high noticable mock collar and they are made out of under armor material and they still have sleeves.

I myself dont think that anything skin tight looks very proffesional unless it is on a woman. They can wear tight fitting clothes and still be proffesional in my opinion.




You had it working till that one, Mills.

[cbdiscpimp]

You had it working till that one, Mills.



Most ALL womens clothing is tight fitting. Plus would you rather see a Women in a Tight collared sleevless shirt or would you rather see a beer belly toting male in a tight sleevless shirt. Its a common fact that women look more proffesional in form fitted clothing.

Or i could just say sue me i like looking at hot chicks in tight clothes :o

Dude, I can't sue ya, I like the same thing! But the women DGers might disagree with us, lol.

[cbdiscpimp]

Dude, I can't sue ya, I like the same thing! But the women DGers might disagree with us, lol.



They may act and say they dont like us looking at them in tight clothes............but ill tell you what i have alot of friends that are chicks and they LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No matter what they say the like it or else they would stop wearing tight clothes ;) :D

[girlie]

Really tight clothes on guys who are not models? Ummm, usually not that attractive. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Really tight clothes on girls who are not models? Uh, usually not that attractive either. :o

The influence that the media has on a young woman's choice in attire.. unfortunately, rather strong.

Control of the media... largely male-based.

What can be deduced?

Women are buying and wearing tight clothes because that's what men like to see them in.

pimp
your a pig :eek:
i mean i would expect you to say something like that :D

[cbdiscpimp]

I knew girlie would pipe in sooner or later.

Thanks forgiven. You know me a little to well to have only met me once

[girlie]

I try not to disappoint. ;)

Im also tired of hearing everyone compare this sport to basketball and football and baseball and every other PROFFESIONAL TEAM sport. They all have uniforms. This is and INDIVIDUAL sport for the most part so you cannot make a comparison with any team sports. The valid refrences are to ball golf and tennis and sports where they play as individuals and not as a team.



I think disc golf has more in common with this sport (http://www.skateboardparks.com/events/2002xgames/gallery/index.html) than with ball golf. If you think of it in terms of who plays it and the kinds of parks that they play in and the types of tournaments that they have. That is until skateboarding became popular enough to attract money and some limited TV coverage. This is an individual sport that gets money from sponsors and gets some limited TV exposure. Skateboarding did not make "the big time" by changing the way they dress. The guys in these pictures (http://www.skateboardparks.com/events/2002xgames/gallery/index.html) are professionals. Some of them, like Tony Hawk, are probably richer than the entire PDGA tour.

Having pointed this out, I'm not saying that I'm against the dress code. I'm just pointing out to Mills that he's getting all irate (or at least seemingly so) over something that isn't as cut and dried as he thinks it is. I think the PDGAs dress code should be open to debate and review. We should not just say "This is the way it is and forever will be."

[cbdiscpimp]

Those guys have sleeves on :eek:

[bruce_brakel]

The libertarian in me is all against dress codes and illegal legal beer and imposing my preferences on everyone else. The realist in me cannot deny that the non-disc golfers in those parks at Worlds were commenting about how everyone was acting so well behaved and looked so professional and even were picking up other people's trash!

The realist is winning out. Superficial annoying realities do matter to the people who decide whether corporate community involvement fund is going to sponsor adult softball leagues or adult disc golf tournaments. My partners in Chicago are hot on the trail of some corporate sponsorship, and having a sport that is putting up a professional image can only help.

...Not to mention the mass produced discs that could come from the pacific rim or asian sweat shops, oh to dream to dream....

Dude, that's sad :(



Yeah, but that's what success will bring to our sport!



Well said.

[bambam]

Are you sure your sig line shouldn't say "Exploitation through Disc Golf" instead? What's peacable about taking advantage of the already disadvantaged for the sake of cheaper and more plentiful plastic?

Again I say, how sad.

His point was not to endorse what will happen, rather it is an observation of the way in which our economic system tends to work. Manufacturing of high demand items generally takes place overseas where a cheaper labor market can be exploited in the name of profit.

[sandalman]

Are you sure your sig line shouldn't say "Exploitation through Disc Golf" instead? What's peacable about taking advantage of the already disadvantaged for the sake of cheaper and more plentiful plastic?

$1.00 USD per hour is quite a fortune in many countries. not only does it raise the overall income level of that population, but it also integrates that country more tightly into the world community. thats something the world could use a lot of at the moment. going to where resources are cheap does NOT constitute a human rights abuse. its what ya do when ya get there that counts.

blame westa,he told me all your little secrets :D

[cbdiscpimp]

He must not know my secrets because he still sucks at Disc Golf :o

[bambam]

His point was not to endorse what will happen, rather it is an observation of the way in which our economic system tends to work. Manufacturing of high demand items generally takes place overseas where a cheaper labor market can be exploited in the name of profit.

Well gosh, it sounds so much better when you put it that way. :p

We may as well exploit the cheap Chinese labor while it's available to us. In a generation or two, they'll probably be exploiting our grandkids.

His point was not to endorse what will happen, rather it is an observation of the way in which our economic system tends to work. Manufacturing of high demand items generally takes place overseas where a cheaper labor market can be exploited in the name of profit.

Well gosh, it sounds so much better when you put it that way. :p



Shall we put a pretty face on it, or tell it like it is?

[bambam]

Call it whatever you like.

My point is: it is "like it is", as you put it, not coincidentally, but because of choice. If the results are undesirable, as I believe them to be in this case, then the choices which brought about this condition need to change.

Not an easy road to travel, I understand... but, you will certainly never arrive at the destination if you never take the first step.

[Blarg]

It is often a 'human rights abuse' when a highly profitable business shuts down it's U.S. manufacturing and fires thousands of people so they can be even more highly profitable by outsourcing labor to another (cheaper) country.
The 'abused' are not the residents of the foreign country, but our own workers who've lost their jobs so that the corporation can make 30 million a year in profit instead of 20.

[hitec100]

It is often a 'human rights abuse' when a highly profitable business shuts down it's U.S. manufacturing and fires thousands of people so they can be even more highly profitable by outsourcing labor to another (cheaper) country.
The 'abused' are not the residents of the foreign country, but our own workers who've lost their jobs so that the corporation can make 30 million a year in profit instead of 20.



Hm. Trying to think of a specific company that fits this scenario. Most I've heard of did this for competitive reasons, when profits were slim if any.

[Blarg]

Nope. Most of 'em do it to make more and more money, regardless of any and all victimization.
GM, Nike, Candy Companies, the list is endless.

[sandalman]

hey blarg, i tried to give ya a star back, but the system wont take it! and what happened to the other thread???

[Blarg]

sandalman:

Well, thanks for trying Sandalman! I don't know why the system won't take it, unless I've aroused the ire of someone in control of the website.
I was stunned when I saw I'd lost a star. I didn't realize how petty some people apparently can be.
Disc golf, for the past year, has been pretty much my whole life. I play or practice almost every day, read everything ever written about the sport repeatedly, design discs, dye discs, write about the sport and constantly experiment with new techniques.
In my mind, I've been logically defending the uniqueness of the sport I love.
This is apparently an unpopular position to some.
:confused:

I don't know why the system won't take it, unless I've aroused the ire of someone in control of the website.



They would never let someone that petty have power would they? :eek:
Are you suggesting there is star/rating envy at play? :D

[Blarg]

:D:D:D:o

[scottsearles]

Blarg,
I just dropped a 5 Star on ya but it did not help. You speak alot of truth. ;)

[Blarg]

SFSDGOLF:
Man, thank you so much! My 3 stars have somehow been restored, thanks in part, to you and others. Took me quite awhile to rise to that level and I was very surprised to see it disappear so quickly and arbitrarily.
Perhaps I am a bit overzealous about disc golf, but I never thought I'd be penalized for my enthusiasm in here.

Again, thanks so much!
:D:D:D

[keithjohnson]

i've got 2 stars and i'm really aggravated about it
obviously i'm NOT pizzing off enough people to get down to the zero stars i'm hoping for :D

[bruce_brakel]

I tried to help you out but they won't let us rate you at zero stars.

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[Blarg]

Here's a radical thought that I can't seem to find the right forum to post it in:

Why can't women compete in the Open division?
Maybe they can, if so, sorry for asking.

I've seen some (smaller) tournament results where, for example, Juliana outscored all of the men, while playing in the women's division.

I've also seen some Masters outscore the open players (this year's World's comes to mind).
Shouldn't there be some way to reward this, even though the divisional players may have chosen to play (logically) in their own division? Doesn't it seem there should be some recognition for having the lowest round by anybody in the tournament?
Maybe a 'You Won But Chose The Wrong Division' award?
:eek:

[keithjohnson]

anybody can...juniors under 10,masters aged, legends of the wizards(or whatever someone wanted to call the super old division :D)

ANYBODY!!!!

and you can get on making the trophies for that player anytime you wish... :D

The open division is literally open to anyone. Pro Women and Pro Masters are protected divisions. It may be comparatively easier to shoot a great round agains Masters as competition than it would be to in an Open division since generally the competition in Open is more skilled and creates more pressure . Many Master's aged pros do compete in Open, and at the USDGC there is only one division. Last year Juliana and Des competed there. .

[keithjohnson]

ha,ha ...i beat you! :eek:
:D

[Blarg]

robj:

Cool! I guess my point was, if I enter in my division, which is at the moment entitled 'Old Geezer Masters,' and I finish with the lowest round of ANYBODY, can I get a trophy for that accomplishment, aside from the 26 dollar check I get for defeating all the 'Senior Grand Masters' in my division?
Yeah, I know I could have entered the 'open' division but at 60, some might be intimidated.
I guess my main thought was that, regardless of division, the best score should at least be rewarded in some way, even if it happens outside the division (see this year's world's scores).

P.S.
Sorry about the 26 dollar reference, I know that's way too high.

P.P.S.
What's a 'protected' division? Does that mean pro women can't compete against pro men?

P.P.S.
What's a 'protected' division? Does that mean pro women can't compete against pro men?



No, it means that even though I go to The Women's National Championships every year, they will never let me play! ;)

Cool! I guess my point was, if I enter in my division, which is at the moment entitled 'Old Geezer Masters,' and I finish with the lowest round of ANYBODY, can I get a trophy for that accomplishment, aside from the 26 dollar check I get for defeating all the 'Senior Grand Masters' in my division?
Yeah, I know I could have entered the 'open' division but at 60, some might be intimidated.
I guess my main thought was that, regardless of division, the best score should at least be rewarded in some way, even if it happens outside the division (see this year's world's scores).

P.S.
Sorry about the 26 dollar reference, I know that's way too high.

P.P.S.
What's a 'protected' division? Does that mean pro women can't compete against pro men?



protected means it isn't open to everyone, that there are specific conditions one must meet to enter (gender, age, etc.)

You can get a special prop for the lowest score. It is called a course record. :D
As for the lowest score in a tourney -- though we are an awfully materialistic society I am still reminded of the words of Emerson: "the reward of a thing well-done is to have done it." :D
If that was a recent experience of yours -- well done.

P.P.S.
What's a 'protected' division? Does that mean pro women can't compete against pro men?



No, it means that even though I go to The Women's National Championships every year, they will never let me play! ;)



would you be a threat to win?

P.P.S.
What's a 'protected' division? Does that mean pro women can't compete against pro men?



No, it means that even though I go to The Women's National Championships every year, they will never let me play! ;)



would you be a threat to win?



Absolutely not!

[Blarg]

robj:
No such luck. I haven't yet had the confidence to compete, even though the younger guys at my local say I throw farther than most Old-Fart Grandmasters.
I just thought I'd seen some masters' scores from this year's World's that were lower than the open division winner and wondered if they'd gotten any recognition for beating everybody.
:p

Barry Shultz 471 (Open winner)
Brad Hammock 481 (Masters winner)

http://pdga.com/schedule/event.php?TournID=4024

robj:
No such luck. I haven't yet had the confidence to compete, even though the younger guys at my local say I throw farther than most Old-Fart Grandmasters.
I just thought I'd seen some masters' scores from this year's World's that were lower than the open division winner and wondered if they'd gotten any recognition for beating everybody.
:p



I often play with Fred Salaz at Idlewild and he will be Grandmasters eligible next year and can sometimes throw 500 feet. Don't let age hold you back, it can become a self-fulfilling prophecy (but do stretch and work out to stay fit). I am 42, have been playing 2 years, and hope to throw 500 feet by next year.

[Blarg]

Wow!

Yet another reason for me not to compete yet. I can't come close to 500 feet. In fact, I've only seen one or two young guys that throw that far of the hundreds I've seen.
:(

Throwing a long way can be a hindrance, for if you aren't accurate you end up farther away from the target -- not closer :D I just wanted to point out that there are old guys out there who don't seem to be at much of a disadvantage due to age.

ha,ha ...i beat you! :eek:
:D



is that any way to treat your old friend 'hoverer'? :D

[Blarg]

The real disadvantage for me (and many older players) is when you have to play 54 holes a day two or three days in a row on an extra long course. La Mirada for the Golden State this year, for example, was set up at 9600 feet over 27 holes. Nearly two miles just to walk from tee to pin. Most of the course is up and down big hills. No senior grandmasters even tried it and a few grandmasters had to drop out.
I played one practice round and my knees still hurt and it was months ago!
:(

P.S.
I'd love to have that 500-foot 'hindrance!'

Longer courses with elevation changes can be tough, my favorite course is Idlewild which is over 8000 feet if you ace every hole. Still, disc golf is not that grueling and if you do cardio exercise several times a week it shouldn't be a problem if you are healthy. I find though that as I age, it becomes more important to exercise regularly and not let myself slip. I imagine that becomes all the more important when you become grandmasters eligible. Playing longer courses is a good thing :D

[Blarg]

robj:

I don't mind long courses. I've lost 25 pounds in the one year since I started playing disc golf and I'm stronger than I've been in probably ten years or so.
I've always wondered, though, why it's necessary to play two rounds per day in tournaments on long courses. It gives younger players a GIGANTIC advantage.

There are large potential benefits for playing one round per day, also. No backed up tees, twice as many players possible, much more relaxed atmosphere and a tournament based more on skill rather than skill plus stamina.
True, I could be in better shape, but just walking the course at the Golden State was grueling for any 60 year old, let alone playing it twice a day. So much so, that nobody over 60 even tried it.
:p

2 rounds of 18 sounds reasonable, but doing more does seem like a lot. Whenever I question standard ways of doing things though, the suggestion is made to me that I should consider organizing and TDing an event myself. That usually shuts me up :D:D

I played Ultimate till a few years ago, and switching to disc golf now seems to be the perfect fit. This sport rock and rolls! Keep on truckin, sounds like you are getting stronger every day (sorry for the gratuitous song lyric mixing) /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

well i better go, i'm in the eastern time zone and have a local course challenge series to attend featuring two rounds of 18 at a local short but very wooded course with some elevation change tomorrow morning.

robj:
...
I just thought I'd seen some masters' scores from this year's World's that were lower than the open division winner and wondered if they'd gotten any recognition for beating everybody.
:p



Us grandmasters played different courses than the pros. Played Ewing and Grandview though. Ewing was definitely survival mode.

[Blarg]

A lot depends on the course layout. Two rounds of 27 per day at say, De LaVeaga or the long setup at La Mirada would be tough for most over 60 players (and some under 60 too).
Two rounds at Oak Grove? Not so much of a problem.
Oak Grove, for anyone who hasn't had the pleasure, is a relatively short 'finesse' course that's pretty much flat with zillions of trees.

Maybe it's just me and I need to get in better shape.
:p

[rhett]

La Mirada for the Golden State this year, for example, was set up at 9600 feet over 27 holes. Nearly two miles just to walk from tee to pin. Most of the course is up and down big hills. No senior grandmasters even tried it and a few grandmasters had to drop out.


A National Tour event isn't a "regular" event, and it's targeted at the elite top-of-the-top players. Senior Grand wasn't offered, so it wasn't a choice for the SGMs. Grands usually aren't offered, either. Most of the top players really like the stretched out LaMa layout.

The two rounds on Friday thing is compromise that Tim came up with. He feels that 4 rounds is what it takes to really determine a champion, but 4 day tourneys are very difficult for the majority of players to swing. That's why 2 rounds on Friday.

I see his point for 4 rounds, but 2 of those LaMa rounds in a day is tough. I'm kind of 50-50 on it myself, but I do see the reasoning.

[Blarg]

MiniBigArm

Thanks for the clarification! I didn't realize the Golden State was designed for the elite players, though in retrospect, I probably shoud have. Makes me feel a little better.
You are right, there was no Grand offered initially, but about five Grand Masters showed up, so they allowed them to compete. The only reason I know this is because I was on the volunteer staff as a linesman and as a "Hey, don't push your baby carriage in front of Climo on the tee, please!" person. :D
I still think the results would have been very much the same had they only played one round per day, however. :p

I think they played two rounds on Saturday also, plus a round on Sunday and a final nine.

[sandalman]

It gives younger players a GIGANTIC advantage.

hmmm... not trying to pick a fight... but i wouldsay it gives WELL-CONDITIONED players of any age the advantage.

one of the things we need to improve in our sport is the athleticism required to compete at the top levels.

[Blarg]

True, but you must admit 'well-conditioned' at 25-30 is bound to be different than 'well-conditioned' over 60.

It's certainly different for me! :( : ;)

[rhett]

I think they played two rounds on Saturday also, plus a round on Sunday and a final nine.



I'm pretty sure they played two rounds of shotgun start on Friday and then one round of tee-times on Saturday and one round of tee-times on Sunday, and then a final-9 for MPO and FPO only on Sunday.

And I'm pretty sure that was the exact same schedule as the inaugural GSC (and inaugural NT event) the year before.

I'm pretty sure because I was doing the scorekeeping and stats and PDGA reports both years. :) MPG being offered also had more to do with who is a dedicated volunteer helping out in the big events than it did in having 5 people show up on the day of. TDs are allowed, at their discretion, to offer more than the required MPO/FPO/MPM at NTs. But they don't have to.

[Blarg]

You are probably right, as I got there a bit late on Saturday.

[idahojon]

Blarg, re: Golden State Classic:
a few grandmasters had to drop out.



Not from what these results say. (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=4003) I was the PDGA Marshal for the event and those old boys were having a grand time. (I can call them "old boys" 'cuz I'm one too.) :DAnd they hung in there till the end! Four Open, one Masters, and one Woman did not finish, but the Grands all made it.

Also, MiniBigArm is right. Two rounds of 18 holes on Friday, shotgun start, then one 18 hole round each Saturday and Sunday, tee times, followed by the Final 9.

[Blarg]

Four Open, one Masters, and one Woman did not finish



Yeah, see, that's what I meant! They got tired! :D
Just kidding, I guess I was misinformed, or misunderstood something I heard. I thought two of the GM's dropped out. :p

I guess I'll just have to get in better shape! :eek: