Cheating at tourneys

I had an experience in my first pro tourney that left a very sour taste in my mouth. One of the touring players cheated. Now I will not say who, because I do not want to start a fight with anyone. I have played with other cheaters since then and am shocked that this type of behavior exists. Is the PDGA going to do anyhting about it. I've heard many people talk about cheaters in their group. However, it seems that nothing ever gets done about it, because proving someone is cheating is hard, unless you keep track of every throw that everyone else makes.
Has anyone else seen cheating going on at a tourney? I was wondering how bad it really is. What can one do when you suspect that someone is cheating?

Slinger-

What type of infractions are we talking about here?

[daveoh]

What was the nature of the cheating, and did anyone mention it to the TD? I also heard a reumor of cheating at this same tournament, same division. I was caddying for the card in front of you (round 3, right?)

I agree that it is difficult to prove anything, but nothing can be done unless a report is made to the TD. Were there any other witnesses?

I'm afraid this is a serious problem in the sport right now, as there are very few independant observers to call out problems. The only option, unfortunately, is for all players to watch everyone else on their card carefully, and address any inconsistancies immediately.

One person reporting a problem will not have the same effect as two or three witnesses.

It's a shame that this is necessary, but unfortunately people aren't as honest as we'd like to think.

My $0.02

I was not directly talking about the masters, however I heard rumors there. I am talking about another tourney. The type of infractions I am talking about is shaving strokes off ones score while the scorecards are in one's possession. I have firm beliefs this was done twice while I was playing in tourneys. Although I cannot absolutely prove it.
What is the penalty for cheating anyway? Perhaps it is not strict enough to deter cheating.

[mcthumber]

One very effective method of deterring pencil whipping is to keep your own scorecard during the round. When asked, you can just reply that you like to keep records of your own score, but make it plain you are also writing everyone's score down. When it's your turn to keep the official card, write the scores on both sets of cards.

This will settle any after-round disputes and put all players on notice that any cheating will quickly be noticed.

--Mike

I've experienced this.

It's not right that honest players pay full price for entry. While half-[*****] wanna-be golfers shave strokes. It's ridiculious and serious action should be taken.

I think something should be done. I've considered starting to keep track of scores on my own pad of paper.

[idahojon]

What is the penalty for cheating anyway? Perhaps it is not strict enough to deter cheating.



Disqualification and possible probation or suspension.

Until players like you come forward and report suspected infractions, it will continue. You are just as responsible as the cheater and the other members in the group for the scores. They should be called out and repeated by each person. And if you have doubts, you should keep note of the scores as suggested by the last poster.

Don't ask when the PDGA is going to do something about it if you don't step up and do something yourself.

[anita]

There is nothing stopping someone from keeping a seperate score sheet. I've had someone do it on a card I was playing on years ago. Didn't bother me in the slightest. The only people it will bother are the ones who are inclined to pencil whip.

Remember, we are the eyes and ears of the PDGA on the course. The PDGA can do nothing about it if no one reports it. It's tough being the first one, but if we all jump on the "play by the rules" bandwagon, that will become the norm.

Valid points.

I've been beat at tourneys and I don't care. If someone plays better than me they deserve to win, without a doubt. But when someone is cheating and beats me it really ticks me off.

It's hard to report it without looking like a sore loser, which is something I never was. It's also hard to have more than one witness when the group is filled with people who know eachother... who knows the BS that goes on.

Like I said. I think carrying my own pad of paper and keeping track on the side should help plenty. I think there should be zero tolerance for this type of cheating and possibly result in a blacklisting of some sort...

[anita]

Those other people are probably just as hunked off about pencil whipping as you are. You may have more support than you think!

aj

I know I have more support than I think. I would hope most of the field is filled with honest players who want honest competition

It's just funny how sometimes friends tend to look the other way so to speak, and play dumb..

[slo]

Sidearm, I can't tell from your posts, did this happen on your card? Did you notice the discrepancy before it was turned in? When?

[Karma Police]

I've suspected it's been done... and my girlfriend knows it's been done in her groups. Unfortunately unless you keep your own scorecard there really isn't a way to prove it. There's not much chance that everyone will remember what everyone got on each hole of a round. Keeping an extra card is a pain but it's worth the hastle. I should start doing that this weekend. My girlfriend should definitely start doing that. And make sure you have other people add up your scorecard after a round. I did mine 3 times my last tourney and I still did it wrong! Thank god another guy found the error in my ways.

[oxalate]

Fortunately, on the whole most golfers I have encountered are honest about how they play the game. Unfortuantely, this can make us complacent about keeping an eye on the rest of our group.

I learned of an instance of pencil whipping at a recent event. The only way the person was caught was because of controversy over the same player for the same reason at an event several weeks earlier. This information led the group that played with the player during the first round to go back and check the scores that were turned in. The group found at least 2 instances during the first round where a lower score was entered on the card - all while the player in question was keeping the scores. Here's the part that I found weird: when the player was confronted about the incorrect scores, they admitted it! The player was immediately DQ'd, but they were not upset about it. I am sure this instance will be/has been reported to the PDGA, and I expect to see a suspension of the offending player.

[rocknrog]

The answer to this is easy, do what the pro golfers do, you are required to keep the scorecard of a competitor & they keep track of yours. They are never allowed to write down their own scores on the official score card. Each person then checks their card at the end of the round & signs it. This almosts requires you to keep your score & the other persons so they don't mess your score up.

Why don't DGer's does this? Most don't like to mess with the cards for the entire round.

We have had issues of people being accused of pencil whipping 2 years in a row in our state DG assoc, but we still haven't changed a thing to stop the practice....

Everyone is too LAZY to keep score for a competitor for 18 holes in a row.... they want the all the cards for their 5 holes, then pass them on.....

Take away the temptation by taking away the ability to pencil whip your own score card.


Take away the opportunity for someone to make a mistake by keeping your own & someone keeping yours, 2 people aren't going to ACCIDENTALLY write down the wrong score.... on 2 different score cards

[justice]

idahojon is right. It is up to us, the players, to make the calls. Only then can the PDGA step in and dish out the medicine. The right thing to do is hardly ever the easiest, but its still the right thing. As for others seeing ya as a 'poor sport' or 'sore loser', if you make the call(s) EVERYTIME, no exceptions, people will notice and realize you're simply enforcing the rules, not ONLY making calls when it benefits you.

[neonnoodle]

Explaining the rules concerning proper recording of scores can help quite a bit too.

How many times have you heard, "Everyone gotta 3, right?"

That is a courtesy violation, and as such does not need to be seconded for a warning or stroke to be assessed.

Here is the rule:
804.03 SCORING
B. After each hole is completed, the scorekeeper shall call out each player's name. The called player shall answer with the score in a manner that is clear to all players of the group and the scorekeeper. The scorekeeper shall record that score and read it back, in a manner that is clear to all players of the group. If there is any disagreement about the score a player reports, the group must review the hole and attempt to arrive at the correct score. If the group cannot reach consensus on the player's score, they shall consult 803.00 C

If a player is playing hide the stroke, it should be immediately apparent. If the scorekeeper is playing that game, yet has to call out their score for all to hear and then commences to whip, when the group checks the scores at the end of the round the whip will stand out like a sore thumb and the score can either be corrected or if it is a clear trend the player can be reported to the TD for disqualification and possible PDGA sanctions.

Another rule is useful in avoiding pencil whipping is:
804.03 SCORING
D. At the end of the round, each player shall sign his or her scorecard indicating that he or she attests to the accuracy of the score on each hole and the total score. If all the players of the group agree that a hole score was recorded in error, the score may be changed prior to the scorecard being turned in. Players whose scorecards are turned in unsigned accept responsibility for the scores reported.

Though not explicitly stated, this hints that players should check each others scores for inaccuracies.

I realize that as players we generally try to reduce the amount of mental distractions, but knowing, following and calling the rules should not fall under the "distraction" category. It is your responsibility and should be built into how you play the game, similar to your pre-putt routine or making sure you have all your discs in your bag before heading out to the course.

Be prepared. YOU ARE THE PDGA.

[august]

And as long as the PDGA backs it up by "dishing out the medicine" as you say, then players will be comfortable reporting this behaviour. If the PDGA does not dish it out, then no one will want to bother reporting the infraction.

[neonnoodle]

Mike,

You can only control what you do. You either do the right thing or you do not. Doing the right thing is a matter of conscience.

[justice]

Every cheating case I know of in my area has been handled by the PDGA through suspensions ranging from 3 mos. to 2 years. I think they 'dish out the medicine' in applicable doses per case, but we have to give them the chance to do so.

[neonnoodle]

Every cheating case I know of in my area has been handled by the PDGA through suspensions ranging from 3 mos. to 2 years. I think they 'dish out the medicine' in applicable doses per case, but we have to give them the chance to do so.



POW!

[james_mccaine]

This has been discussed before around here. The suggestion by Notorious of multiple scorecards (only turn in one though) should be a PDGA requirement, not merely good advice given to those playing with pencil whippers.

Also, Patty (or Mitch), not all pencil whippers who have been caught have been punished. One who was caught before he turned his card in was "absolved" of his crime by a PDGA representative.

Also, Patty (or Mitch), not all pencil whippers who have been caught have been punished. One who was caught before he turned his card in was "absolved" of his crime by a PDGA representative.



That is BS
:confused:

[justice]

HI James!
Mitch posts under his own name.
Like I said: "the cases I know of"
I realize other situations have occured, but it seems the cases that actually make it to the 'top' are delt with in an appropriate manner. I also realize that in the past this may not have been the case. Things have changed and are still changing. The more we make the calls, the bigger the movement.

[august]

True, but you can't deny that if the infraction is reported, yet goes unpunished, then it's a real morale killer and players will be reluctant to report it.

This is the human nature/reality side of the coin, not the conscience/do what's right side.

[magilla]

I had an experience in my first pro tourney that left a very sour taste in my mouth. One of the touring players cheated. What can one do when you suspect that someone is cheating?



One should go directly to the TD or to an Official and let the infraction be known. To let this behavior go on is to only CHEAT yourself and others who play this game HONESTLY.

As Coordinator for the Northern 1/2 of Region 2, I would hope that ANYONE would feel like they could come to me with any concern or question.

I HATE CHEATERS......I have heard MANY rumors but to this day still have not had anyone actually come forth to present evidence.
I assure you that any such evidence would be acted upon and Infractions would be dealt with accordingly :D

To all those cheaters out there who have not been caught. You know who you are, and so do alot of other people. Maybe you were not called on it, but guess what, people did notice and they know that you are a cheater. The more you cheat the more people who know about you. If that is the reputation you want, then go ahead and keep on doing what you are doing. But don't think for one second that no one noticed.

[exczar]

This has been discussed before around here. The suggestion by Notorious of multiple scorecards (only turn in one though) should be a PDGA requirement, not merely good advice given to those playing with pencil whippers.




I have long advocated such a procedure. Since the scores are called out anyway, why not have everyone keep a scorecard, then compare them at the end of the round. The rules would have to be revised somewhat, but that could easily be done.

[Moderator005]

How many times have you heard, "Everyone gotta 3, right?"

That is a courtesy violation, and as such does not need to be seconded for a warning or stroke to be assessed.

Here is the rule:
804.03 SCORING
B. After each hole is completed, the scorekeeper shall call out each player's name. The called player shall answer with the score in a manner that is clear to all players of the group and the scorekeeper. The scorekeeper shall record that score and read it back, in a manner that is clear to all players of the group. If there is any disagreement about the score a player reports, the group must review the hole and attempt to arrive at the correct score. If the group cannot reach consensus on the player's score, they shall consult 803.00 C



If you were to observe this in a PDGA tournament and chose to first assess a courtesy violation AND a stroke to an unsuspecting scorekeeper without any prior warning to someone who may be unaware of the formality of this rule, I wouldn't be surprised if you were to receive a punch in the face.

Of course, I detest all violence and absolutely do not condone such an action, but I wouldn't be surprised by it. You'd also likely end up with an enemy for life.

Your point is well taken and explaining the rules concerning proper recording of scores is probably a good thing to review before each and every round of a PDGA tournament, but your "stroke first, ask questions later" mentality is the wrong way to go, imo.

[paul]

I play in very few tournaments but when I do there's always the guy that gives the wrong score out loud. He'll say "4" and I'll say - "What was that?" He'll say "4". I'll say - "Really, you had 4?" He'll mumble something under his breath just realizing that I'm calling him a cheater in the least confrontational way I can. He'll usually relent and correct the number. If not my next step is to ask if he wanted to make sure because I "thought" he had a 5. This then gives most players a chance to renege give the right score. Next step is to explain to him exactly where his 5 throws were from and ask again if he's sure he had a 4 . . . . by this point he's either in full argument mode or he gives up. Either way -- I get my point across. Some cheaters I've found are so hyped up that they actually believe they had a better score. They're like in denial becauase they just don't want to take responsibility for what they've just done. Usually the most painful ones are the guys that tell you they had a 6 when they really had a 7 while the rest of the group had two's or three's. Making them take the 7 is usually seen as beating a dead horse . . . of course I flog away.

[neonnoodle]

This is the human nature/reality side of the coin, not the conscience/do what's right side.



Reality is what you make it. You can choose the "human nature" side and I'll choose "conscious self-determination" side.

I think I’ve stated many times that “human nature” is a construct and has no scientific basis. It happens to be a limiting act of futility to believe in, but that is your choice to make (or not; if you are correct :D).

[august]

Thanks for sharing your opinions.

[magilla]

I HATE CHEATERS......I have heard MANY rumors but to this day still have not had anyone actually come forth to present evidence.
I assure you that any such evidence would be acted upon and Infractions would be dealt with accordingly :D



Let me back track a few years...

I had an incident at an event that I was TD 5 or 6 years ago.
A group of players came to me (very well respected players) and accused an individual of Cheating. They said that though they had not actually witnessed it they thought he had thrown an extra stroke then he reported. He said he took a 4 and they thought he had taken a 5, But they did not see him throw the extra stroke because he was over the edge and they hadnt walked right up to it to see down the hillside.

History: Prior to this reporting a player from another pool (who was not playing that round) told me a story of a sequence of shots he witnessed by a player that he thought was quite funny. Player thru down hill over a steep cliff thru trees and down to the edge of the lake. After marking his lie he tried to throw an overhand up the hill, but hit the first tree in front of him. He then took one step picked up his disc and thru it again. I was told all of this BEFORE any question of cheating was brought to my attention, so by chance, I already had insight to the problem. /msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

The decision that I made next, sticks in my side everytime I think about it , BUT I went with the feeling that evryone makes mistakes and they learn from them, so I decided to give the benefit of the doubt and asked the individual, one question. "What score did you take on Hole #17?" The answer to that question could only be one thing; "I took a 5" any other answer and I would have DQ'd the individual on the spot.....BUT he did own up to the 5 and he was stroked for turning in an incorrect scorecard...... :(

This REALLY made the members of his group mad at me, BUT I believe my actions at the time were correct. I made it VERY clear to the individual of what he was accused of and I am quite sure that the message sank in.

It makes me sick that a PRO plaayer would have to alter his scorecard. ANY player who does this should be BANNED FOR LIFE......Maybe that threat would sink in to those who like to "whip" or cheat in other ways......... :mad:

[20460chase]

I am a trusting person almost everywhere....cept on the course.It sucks.I play my best golf when i dont have to worry about my score but if i could id keep score the whole tourney and that makes it hard to keep your mind off your score...I use to keep seperates of my group but got tired of people getting ****** off reporting 5s,6s,ect. if I missed it the first time...one person went so far as to say I was mocking him for playin bad.I think Ind. scorecards is the only answer.One of the most helpful,nicest local guys has been accused of cheating twice so I watch everyone now>

[james_mccaine]

I may be misunderstanding the scenario you are describing, but it sounds similiar to one I'm familiar with. My question is: If this person reported an incorrect score and was caught before turning their card in, why is this not a violation of 804.05(3)?

I understand that an honest "misreporting a score" is possible, but if someone is questioned, then has a chance to reflect and gives an incorrect score, it seems like "willful cheating." (Although I don't know if this happened in your example)

Play hard, Play fair...Karma will take care of the rest.

All else, tell on 'em.

[neonnoodle]

WORD

Sometimes people actually make a mistake and call out the wrong score. Repeating the score back gives them a chance to reflect on that and sometimes make the mental correction. One time a person in our group at a tournament said one of those "everyone gotta three, right?" types of things and we all said ok. We were about to tee off and then I said "NO NO NO, I got a 4 on that hole!" I explained that's one reason to not do that kind of score calling--not to mention that it is against the rules.

One time I went home from a tournament thinking about how I played and I thought about a hole where I really screwed up. I suddenly thought about what score I called out and I thought maybe I had called a 6 a 5. I don't think that guy was calling back scores and I don't think anyone was paying much attention. Either that or they all think I'm a cheater, but were too afraid to call me on it. ;)

Sometimes people actually make a mistake and call out the wrong score. Repeating the score back gives them a chance to reflect on that and sometimes make the mental correction. One time a person in our group at a tournament said one of those "everyone gotta three, right?" types of things and we all said ok. We were about to tee off and then I said "NO NO NO, I got a 4 on that hole!" I explained that's one reason to not do that kind of score calling--not to mention that it is against the rules.

One time I went home from a tournament thinking about how I played and I thought about a hole where I really screwed up. I suddenly thought about what score I called out and I thought maybe I had called a 6 a 5. I don't think that guy was calling back scores and I don't think anyone was paying much attention. Either that or they all think I'm a cheater, but were too afraid to call me on it. ;)


I would think that most people on this board have at one time or another called out the wrong score (generally it was a high one. :))
However, the difference between most people and the "cheaters" is that we did it without malice while somepeople make sure to say the incorrect number.
For me that is irreprehensible.
Karma can kick some a**!!!!!!!!

[neonnoodle]

Anyone here ever called a courtesy violation on someone for not taking score correctly?

I haven't..... yet.

I bet folks would be more likely to do it the right way if they were. For honest folk, one warning will usually last a lifetime.

[Moderator005]

Anyone here ever called a courtesy violation on someone for not taking score correctly?

I haven't..... yet.

I bet folks would be more likely to do it the right way if they were. For honest folk, one warning will usually last a lifetime.



I would agree 100%. Give someone a warning and inform them of the implications of that strokeable courtesy violation and they'll remember forever.

Stroke them first, and well, it could get ugly.

[williethekid]

I can say adding up the score is something that can be a major problem in a tourney. I like the idea of having competitors keep score in order to aviod cheating and adding infractions. Last year (2003) CT states there was an incident of adding a score too low by the opposing player only to get the player who had recorded the correct, higher score and he got the 2 strokes. Personally at fool's fest at FDR this past aprilIi added up my strokes by 2 strokes too high, I still got the 2 strokes penalty so it was like nothing happened at all, but it cost me a second place finish. ADD UP YOUR SCORES TWICE AND HAVE THEM CHECKED LOL. Also at the same tourney there was a guy who was writing his own scores during the round and we called him on what he called a 3 but was really a 5, he pulled out his scorecard to say there wasnt any problem, and we found him to have written the incorrect score. Since he wrote it down we couldnt say anything so it can work both ways. Two of the group said he had a 5, himself and a friend of his said a 3. I've noticed the same player who has yet to throw over 200' do quite well in various tourneys but i wont name names. Seems to me like he's cheating at other tourneys too.

[bruce_brakel]

One time I went home from a tournament thinking about how I played and I thought about a hole where I really screwed up. I suddenly thought about what score I called out and I thought maybe I had called a 6 a 5. I don't think that guy was calling back scores and I don't think anyone was paying much attention. Either that or they all think I'm a cheater, but were too afraid to call me on it. ;)



Another time you want home from a tournament thinking you had called a 6 a 5 so you called the TD and asked him to check the scorecards. Turned out the scorecard showed a six, so maybe you called a 6 a 5 and then the scorer pencil whipped it back up to a 6!

cheating is wrong and will catch up with you down the road :(

[rhett]

Yeah, man. But, like, don't be a dick and call any rules, though. That might harsh somebody's buzz.

hey are you calling me a dick? :D

[exczar]

Yeah, man. But, like, don't be a d*ck and call any rules, though. That might harsh somebody's buzz.



LOL Thanks Rhett, you're MAKIN' IT REEEEEAL!

If you were to observe this in a PDGA tournament and chose to first assess a courtesy violation AND a stroke to an unsuspecting scorekeeper without any prior warning to someone who may be unaware of the formality of this rule, I wouldn't be surprised if you were to receive a punch in the face.



Someone needs to pull out his rulebook and read it. You cannot both warn and stroke on the same courtesy violation:

801.03 E. A player violating a courtesy rule may be warned by any affected player, even from another group, or an official, with all players advised of the warning. The player shall be assessed one penalty throw for each <font color="blue">subsequent</font> courtesy violation of any type in the same round. Repeated violations of courtesy rules may result in disqualification in accordance with section 804.05.

[gnduke]

But you can warn them, and then stroke them for their over reaction to the warning. :cool:

One time I went home from a tournament thinking about how I played and I thought about a hole where I really screwed up. I suddenly thought about what score I called out and I thought maybe I had called a 6 a 5. I don't think that guy was calling back scores and I don't think anyone was paying much attention. Either that or they all think I'm a cheater, but were too afraid to call me on it. ;)



Another time you want home from a tournament thinking you had called a 6 a 5 so you called the TD and asked him to check the scorecards. Turned out the scorecard showed a six, so maybe you called a 6 a 5 and then the scorer pencil whipped it back up to a 6!



It's nice to know that the score I got is the score that got on the card. My first shot went into the bushes to the right of the basket, second shot hit a bush on the way out, third shot finally got out, fourth shot hit the basket and rolled down the hill, fifth shot under the basket, sixth shot in. I recall now that you assured me that it got scored correctly that I called out "6" and then said something about that it should have been a 5. Saying "5" stuck in my head.

[peter_h]

One thing they tried on the recent Danish Open (1st leg of the new Nordic Disc Golf Tour (http://www.nordicdiscgolftour.com) , formerly known as EuroTour North) was the ball golf system, where you switch scoring cards with another guy in the group, and keeps eachother's score as well as your own for reference. After the completed round you compare the notes, and sign both your own scorecard, and the one you kept.

The downside for the individual player of course what 20460chase already mentioned, a lot of players, including me, don't really want to know their exact own score, e.g. when you're in a nice birdie groove, it's easy to loose focus on the game when your mind starts playing with the score and the possibilities for the round. Ah well, you cannot win everything at the same time. Guess if this system is further used, you probably get more used to handle it mentally.

As for suspecting an erroneous score on a hole being entered. Do speak up immediately. A tale from my own life: After a very long period of an extremely stressful job situation, my mind somehow started playing ugly tricks on me. I actually lost most of my short time memory :(, and had a lot of trouble remembering what score I had on the previous hole, especially if having made more than 3-4 throws. I sure appreciated it, when someone now and then asked if my reported score really was corrrect, and gave me a second chance to with their help recapture the hole and thus making my score correct.

[neonnoodle]

But you can warn them, and then stroke them for their over reaction to the warning. :cool:



Yes, you can, but be prepared for it to escalate. It's a real shame that knowing, playing by, calling and accepting the ruling is not yet as common as it should be.

Only one way to make it so, the best way, and that is to do it yourself.

Easier said than done granted...

[ryangwillim]

I think attitude has a lot to do with calling someone on the rules.

I was playing a tourney out of state last month. One a difficult hole I had an extremely difficult lie that put me deep into a bush with a straddle upshot with about 120' to go. The only option I had was to do a bit of a straddle jump upshot (not something I practice on a daily basis). I checked my footing before throwing, then took my shot. Now when I am straddled, and have to jump putt it is easiest for me to keep my marked foot planted and (after release) move my free foot about 1' forward toward the hole.
One of the players in my group looked at my stance AFTER I took my shot and observed that my stance was illegal, not realizing that it was legal when I took my shot.
The player YELLED at me saying "You can't do that!" I asked him what I did and he told me my I can't have my free foot closer to the pin than my marked foot. I tried to explain to him how I took my shot, but we he was angry and wouldn't listen, since no one else was paying attention I recieved a warning.
I waited a couple holes for the guy to calm down, and then politely asked him to say something before I throw if he thinks I am doing anything illegal, because I don't want to recieve a penalty stroke if I don't have to.

The thing about the situation was that he immediately got defensive when I tried to explain what I had done. And he accused me not only of cheating, but also of not knowing the rules by his statement of "you can't do that". I am a pretty laid back guy, and after I approached him a couple holes later after he calmed down, we were fine for the rest of the round.

PLEASE BE ATTENTIVE OF YOUR ATTITUDE.
You can call someone on cheating, but think about how and what you say when you do it. If you are a jerk about it, the situation usually only gets worse. If you don't get personal and simply approach the manner with a neutral attitude, it is a lot easier. The bottom line is that rules are rules, and we have no need to add our own emotions to them. Everyone knows the rules, and if they don't pull out the rulebook and show the offending person in writing where their infraction lies so that they know. If they are still a jerk about it, don't let it get to you. Getting mad at a cheater doesn't help your game either.

[rhett]

The throw from a properly called stance violation cannot be used because it was not a legal throw. If you received a warning, then you should've had to re-throw the shot. A properly called stance violation also requires *2* people to call it.

If that's not what happened, give that guy a refresher course on the rules the next time you are out there. :)

[neonnoodle]

Rhett is correct.

Rhett is correct.



rhett and nick agreeing on something ,thats a frist :eek:

[slowmo_1]

when it's all said and done the easiest way to stop pencil whipping is for everyone to gather around the scorecard while the scores are being written. Don't just call them across a 10-15 foot distance and hope the person writing them down is honest. If all 4 or 5 players are watching exactly what is being written down on every hole there's no chance for someone to cheat.

[idahojon]

thats a frist



Isn't Frist the majority leader of the US Senate?

when it's all said and done the easiest way to stop pencil whipping is for everyone to gather around the scorecard while the scores are being written. Don't just call them across a 10-15 foot distance and hope the person writing them down is honest. If all 4 or 5 players are watching exactly what is being written down on every hole there's no chance for someone to cheat.



I agree with you 100%, however..
At a recent tourney, we had all determined our scores before turning in our cards (we each had an individual card) and this player had shot a -1. During awards I had discovered that he had turned in a card with a -3, thus beating me by 1 stroke for the day. And leaving me very ****** off with the entire system. It's not right players should have to police everyone in their group in order for fair play. I realize there is always a way to stop a cheater doing whatever, but when your focued on the game, it's difficult to constantly be thinking about methods to stop cheaters.

Cheaters will always find a loop-hole. Once a cheater, always. I think there should be zero-tolerance and sorry, but a 2-3 month ban is laughable as a pentalty..

[ryangwillim]

The throw from a properly called stance violation cannot be used because it was not a legal throw. If you received a warning, then you should've had to re-throw the shot. A properly called stance violation also requires *2* people to call it.

If that's not what happened, give that guy a refresher course on the rules the next time you are out there. :)



Good to know, I wasn't aware of that. Next time I'll be prepared.